EVs: North American Charging Standard

[Dr Mordrid]

First Ford, now General Motors have adapted the Tesla Supercharger system. The ball is now in Stellantis and the US made imports court.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/08/gm-t...g-network.html

GM to use Tesla charging network, joining Ford in leveraging the EV leader’s tech

KEY POINTS

• General Motors will follow crosstown rival Ford Motor in partnering with Tesla to use the electric vehicle leader’s North American charging network and technologies.

• GM, like Ford, will begin installing a charging port used by Tesla, known as NACS, instead of the current industry-standard CCS in its EVs starting in 2025.

• The deal was announced by GM CEO Mary Barra and Tesla CEO Elon Musk during a live, audio discussion on Twitter Spaces.

[VJ]

Here there is a shift from Chademo to CCS. A bit annoying for us, as we - for a project - need V2G, but the standard on CCS is not yet implemented (the standard was postponed several times, two years ago - at the time of writing the proposal - we expected it would be there by now). As manufacturers are waiting for the standard, but also as they are not in a hurry as there is little demand for V2G, it means we cannot get a CCS charger that implements V2G. However, we have to meet the milestones and need to have V2G for experiments.

Potentially we may have to get an outdated Chademo V2G charger and a car to match to meet the project requirements, but it will not be a long term solution as there are less and less cars with Chademo and other EVs in the test case have CCS... We have an older Nissan Leaf that supports V2G over Chademo, but it has around 80km of range and the test location is around 400km from our laboratory. It will be an adventure to get there.

[Dr Mordrid]

Chademo is dying here, CCS overtook it long ago and few if any new installations are going in. Now CCS is losing relevance because of the Tesla/Ford/GM alliance, and the growing number of major chargepoint manufacturers announcing support for NACS.

Electronically, AC and DC share pins under NACS and both it and CCS have a 1000 volt capability. Amperage is where NACS has an advantage: unlimited, so long as the temperature at the connector is within specs. Tesla has tested the connector at 900A with no liquid cooling, and the Supercharger chargepoint has had integrated liquid cooling for several years. Megawatt charging has been rolled out for Tesla Semi, and will be extended for the Cybertruck and future vehicles (there's talk of a Tesla Van erc).

Reading through the NACS documents it also appears v2g and bidirectional charging are in the future, likely with their next-gen platform which is coming out in 2024/2025. Several new battery technologies going in. Many vehicles will have no rare earths, no cobalt, a minimum amount of nickel, and injection cast frames look to be a standard feature after their introduction in Model Y - which in Q1 2023 was the world top selling vehicle, passing Toyota Corolla

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...154909234.html

[Dr Mordrid]

Bloomberg updates NACS deployment & EV market share prediction,

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...200020051.html

Tesla is the largest installer of ultra-fast chargers in the US, according to BloombergNEF, accounting for 71% of installations in 2022.

BNEF’s latest Electric Vehicle Outlook 2023, published last week, forecasts that electric models in the US will make up nearly 28% of passenger vehicle sales by 2026, up from 7.6% in 2022.

NACS support from chargepoint manufacturers ABB E-mobility (Swiss), Blink (US), ChargePoint (US), EVgo (US), EverCharge (US), FLO (US), Tritium (Australia), Wallbox (Spain), Pure Watercraft (GM-owned electric boats), and standards org CharIN started a task force to work on an NACS standard (a little late, the market has chosen).

[VJ]

The market in EU is going for CCS. (even Teslas here have the CCS standard) Chademo is also dying here, our work-issue is that the V2G-specification on CCS has been postponed a couple of times so only chademo is an option for V2G research at the moment.

There is one caveat in the 28% of market share of new vehicles: the amount of vehicle sales. Adoption of EV is a no-brainer for people who can charge at home (and even moreso if they have PV). However, as more of such people are having EVs, the growth potential there is decreasing. The challenge now will be to get the other people for who it is not straight forward at the moment to change to an EV. People who live in dense cities without a private parking space are 100% dependent on the charging infrastructure in the city. As long as that is not sufficient, buying an EV is risky - not because of the EV itself, but because of aspects outside of the owner's control. Many analyses assume a continuation of the growth of EV adoption, but they ignore this infrastructure aspect. It is realistic to assume that new car-sales of fuel-powered cars will drop: people for who an EV is not (yet) an option will keep their current car longer or get a used fuel powered car for the time being - the logical consequence of the drop in fuel powered car sales is that the share of EV sales goes up.
And an additional question is: how much of this 28% are current EV-owners that replace e.g. a 10-year old EV (and what happens to their old car: scrapped or sold as second hand?), and which percentage are true new EV owners? We've reached the time when early adopters want to change their EV.

EVs are getting cheaper, the announced Volvo EX30 is a great example, but without ample infrastructure, it is not straight forward for a large group of people.

[Dr Mordrid]

Vehicle to grid/bidirectional charging is coming to Supercharger, the head of Tesla's powertrain division confirmed this a few months ago - probably within a couple years which would coincide with their next-gen platform. The main issue seems to be, is there a market? Tesla, Generac and others also make home power backup batteries which would serve the same purpose without risking discharging the vehicle or shortening its battery life (the latter not being a problem with LFP batteries, such as in Tesla's Powerwall).

The US is much different than Europe in terms of where people live. 66% of us live in a house, and very few do not have a driveway. About 2/3 of them have a garage. So the rest of us are either living in apartments, condos, etc. There are subsidies for buildings to get Level 2 chargepoints installed in their parking spaces. The installing company makes money off selling the electricity. Here in Michigan, the State is involved in connecting installers to buildings. So far, the issue seems to be willpower.

Tesla came out with the Model S and v1.0 of their charging system in 2012, but has sold ~80% of their US fleet in the past 5 years. Their resale value is quite high, and the US is already installing battery recycling infrastructure. One of these companies, Redwood Materials, was founded by a Tesla co-founder who is now back on Tesla's board. Part of this recycling is identifying batteries from wrecked or retired vehicles which are still good, with the plan being to repurpose them for grid storage and stabilization batteries. Tesla is also making the 3.9 MWh Megapack battery for grid storage arrays, one array being built in Arizona is over 1 GWh. This is becoming a big part of Tesla's business.

With the new US and (some) state credits, a new Model 3 bought in California is under $20,000. Model Y is also on the way down, and the upcoming compact (Model 2?) may have a pre-credit price of about $25,000. This is what happens when you have a margin of 24 - 33% on each vehicle.

[VJ]

There is a difference between V2L and V2G, and the question if there is demand for V2G is valid. Which is why manufacturers are not rushing it.

Here the base model 3 is 45000 euro, more than double the price in the US.

[Dr Mordrid]

There is a difference between V2L and V2G, and the question if there is demand for V2G is valid. Which is why manufacturers are not rushing it.

Here many people have backup power in the form of a generator connected to the natural gas supply or a propane tank. We have a 22 kWh generator which kicks in during power outages. Very handy when storms hit and take down the power lines. This past winter we had five power outages after New Years, one lasting several days and affecting over half a million people

Here the base model 3 is 45000 euro, more than double the price in the US.

Does that include a VAT?

[UtwigMU]

Most likely it includes VAT. Prices need to be published with VAT in EU not like that US bullshit where price is X but then they tack on sales tax at the register. VAT is not the only tax with car, you also have additional taxes which are lower in case of EVs.

Tesla sales are picking up, where 5 years ago chances of seeing a Tesla or a Ferrari on the road were 1:1 I now see roughly 1 Tesla per day.

I live in apartment building and parking is on who arrives first basis. At least in this town I can usually find a parking spot every time, in Ljubljana it's utopia. So for me to own an electric car I would also need to own/rent a parking place and have electricity there.
Parking place/garage box costs 10.000-25.000 EUR depending on location. Rent for parking place in residential area is 70-100 EUR/month

A house is 250k but McMansion can cost 1 million - in case of living in a house you can charge at home.

Further problem is electric power production. We have a mix of 1/3 hydro 1/3 nuclear 1/3 coal. There is also a gas plant that can come online if nuclear or coal is in maintenance. The coal plant produces more power than all hydro plants combined, was built in 2010 with best technology for sulphur and NOx filtration. There is a coal mine nearby and coal is transported by conveyor straight to plant. Due to bullshit CO2 coupons the plant is now no longer profitable. Because they cannot steal when coal is locally produced, the government decided to close the mine and import coal, where they can get kickbacks from purchase and transport.

The nuclear plant is US technology commissioned in 1982. There are plans for 2nd block but it will be 10-15 years at best before it comes online.

[paulw]

Most likely it includes VAT. Prices need to be published with VAT in EU not like that US bullshit where price is X but then they tack on sales tax at the register. VAT is not the only tax with car, you also have additional taxes which are lower in case of EVs.

Tesla sales are picking up, where 5 years ago chances of seeing a Tesla or a Ferrari on the road were 1:1 I now see roughly 1 Tesla per day.

I live in apartment building and parking is on who arrives first basis. At least in this town I can usually find a parking spot every time, in Ljubljana it's utopia. So for me to own an electric car I would also need to own/rent a parking place and have electricity there.
Parking place/garage box costs 10.000-25.000 EUR depending on location. Rent for parking place in residential area is 70-100 EUR/month

A house is 250k but McMansion can cost 1 million - in case of living in a house you can charge at home.

Further problem is electric power production. We have a mix of 1/3 hydro 1/3 nuclear 1/3 coal. There is also a gas plant that can come online if nuclear or coal is in maintenance. The coal plant produces more power than all hydro plants combined, was built in 2010 with best technology for sulphur and NOx filtration. There is a coal mine nearby and coal is transported by conveyor straight to plant. Due to bullshit CO2 coupons the plant is now no longer profitable. Because they cannot steal when coal is locally produced, the government decided to close the mine and import coal, where they can get kickbacks from purchase and transport.

The nuclear plant is US technology commissioned in 1982. There are plans for 2nd block but it will be 10-15 years at best before it comes online.

The thing in the US is that sales tax is levied state by state with some having no sales tax. Could be a bit hard to advertize the price of a car with say 5% sales tax in one state and then go across the border and it 10% sales tax especially online ordering. If the country had a country wide sales tax percentage then you could advertize tax included pricing.

[MultimediaMan]

Quite a few people in the USA purchase cars from other states with lower sales tax... this can lead to troubles when it comes to illegal tax avoidance; Recreational Vehicles (camping vehicles/ trailers), are a particular area of concern reputable dealers will tell you what you can can can't do across neighboring states, but if the transaction spans several states, you are on your own. In the USA there are still incentives in some states for EVs, but the luster is wearing off when it comes to (the lack of) tax revenue EVs generate, and the power grid headaches they are starting to create in many areas.

[Dr Mordrid]

Michigan in quite a few other states have replaced the gasoline tax revenues from EV with a fee on their license tags every year. Very likely, this will be supplemented with a tax on each kWh dispensed by charge points like the Tesla Supercharger. Another option is a tax per mile driven. That decision is being made in our legislature this term.

I think the tax on kWh is simpler and less intrusive privacy wise. There's also the possibility that the miles driven tax could be unconstitutional because of the need to track you. Such tracking has run into trouble in Federal courts, requiring a warrant.

[Umfriend]

So I know nothing about all this but our next car is most likely to be full-electric. We tend do drive our cars for a long time. Currently, since 2010, a Volvo V70 which is, in Europe, considered to be a larger car. Now that we're on holiday in the US (really gr8!) I realise I will have to get used to whatever car will be next. For instance, we have cruise control but nowadays they have adaptive and it works awesome! I have to admit that the Suburban was a bit to large to my taste. I felt like driving an apartment building and never got a sense of how far it extended. But the Nissan Armada is awesome.

On taxes, I really dislike the notion of being tracked for miles / location but charging per kWh, I think, will be an issue: How do you tax on charged through your own PV? It's gonna be a nightmare if you also offer up your battery to the grid. I think it will mean that ppl who can afford PV panels will not pay road tax at all. The issue I would have with license tax is that they are fixed and I'd prefer something that depends on mileage.

My suggestion would be to tax tires. If you drive a lot and/or big/heavy vehicles you pay more which I think is reasonable. Also, it is hard to avoid or arbitrage.

[Dr Mordrid]

So I know nothing about all this but our next car is most likely to be full-electric. We tend do drive our cars for a long time. Currently, since 2010, a Volvo V70 which is, in Europe, considered to be a larger car. Now that we're on holiday in the US (really gr8!) I realise I will have to get used to whatever car will be next. For instance, we have cruise control but nowadays they have adaptive and it works awesome! I have to admit that the Suburban was a bit to large to my taste. I felt like driving an apartment building and never got a sense of how far it extended. But the Nissan Armada is awesome.

One of our large vehicles was a Dodge Sportsman B300 15 seat window van. We could pull out the seats and turn it into a camper. Also had a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado - a ship with wheels. Great for hauling our boat to the family up-north house on Lake Huron. Take the boat out, catch some fish, have dinner on the beach

On taxes, I really dislike the notion of being tracked for miles / location but charging per kWh, I think, will be an issue: How do you tax on charged through your own PV?

We pay a fixed free on our yearly license tags. There is also talk of a state kWh tax on the Level 3 DC chargers and those who charge using AC Level 2 (240 vac) from the utility (on a separate smart meter). Installing and using PV is subsidized through tax credits, and some utilities will buy excess power from you during peak load periods. Off peak power, usually overnight, is sold at a discount and used for a large proportion of home charging.

[VJ]

Does that include a VAT?

Yes, that was with VAT, for the base model. Cars or much more expensive here in Europe, partly because of VAT, import duties and additional taxes. It also has to do with the manufacturers not offering many lower models anymore (partly because of safety requirements: auto braking is almost mandatory; from this year new models have to recognize the maximum speed through map-data and cameras and limit to it - you can override it, but you have to do something more than just driving: the car has to make it more difficult to speed, https://www.carthrottle.com/post/all...ers-in-europe/ ). So while I agree that the list price on website in the US is not the user price, there still is a huge difference.

Michigan in quite a few other states have replaced the gasoline tax revenues from EV with a fee on their license tags every year. Very likely, this will be supplemented with a tax on each kWh dispensed by charge points like the Tesla Supercharger. Another option is a tax per mile driven. That decision is being made in our legislature this term.

I think the tax on kWh is simpler and less intrusive privacy wise. There's also the possibility that the miles driven tax could be unconstitutional because of the need to track you. Such tracking has run into trouble in Federal courts, requiring a warrant.

You don't have to track people to tax per mile driven: it is enough to know the mileage in a given timeframe - it does not matter where it was driven. In Belgium they have the plan of taxing some roads more during rush hour (as a way of traffic congestion regulation) and that would require some form of tracking - they are still not sure how to do it. OTOH, some trajectory control speed checking already reads license plates and knows which cars were in that section of the road at what time... So it is already happening.

Tax on kWh is difficult when people charge from home: you have to distinguish between the power used for living and the power used for driving (at least, here those would be differently taxed).

My suggestion would be to tax tires. If you drive a lot and/or big/heavy vehicles you pay more which I think is reasonable. Also, it is hard to avoid or arbitrage.

No... good tires are a safety aspect. Taxing them more would make them more expensive and would get more people to use them longer than is safe.