HyperLoop (800 mph "train" - updates)

[VJ]

Yep: http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20130...sker-a-parable
Still a shame Fisker did not manage to survive... I saw 2 of them on different occasions, and while highly impractical (turning radius is ridiculous), they look nice...

On the Hyperloop: there have been many similar concepts in the past, but I still feel the step to choose for such a system is too big.

[dZeus]

If he were angling theat way he wouldn't have open sourced it.

And FYI, Tesla paid off the DoE development loan they got - early. Way early.

It's not the DoE loan that I was referring to when I used the word subsidies. Here's an article that nicely list a load of subsidies that Tesla depends on.

[Dr Mordrid]

The EV / hybrid tax credits are a matter of govt policy to encourage efficient vehicles and all company's that make them are eligible, and selling the carbon credits are likewise. Don't like it, change the law. Otherwise Tesla is doing what any other company would do.

As to this -

Tesla can’t increase demand by dropping the price very much. About the only way they can do this (barring some—currently remote—major battery technology improvements) is by cutting the vehicle’s range.

the author has it wrong because they can lower the cost. There's a more mass-market sub-$30k Tesla coming after the Model X crossover and a line of trucks after that. They're also deep into new, cheaper, battery development so the "currently remote" itself is unlikely as it's key to their plan for the sub-$30k vehicle. More product + high demand (they're selling all they can make and expanding capacity) = a higher proportion of revenues from sales.

What's really ticking off the old boys network that are heavily invested into traditional car companies (ex: that Forbes article) and NADA dealer networks is that Tesla bypasses the franchised dealer middlemen and sells direct. They've been fighting tooth & nail to keep Tesla out of their states, and losing more often than winning.

That the auto companies & dealers are fighting them so hard shows fear IMO. Good!

[dZeus]

Are EV/Hybrid cars more efficient if you take embedded energy costs into account, as compared to a car with similar usable volume and a small petrol or diesel engine? I have my doubts.

If anything, EV/Hybrid allows you to slightly decrease your reliance on oil for car transportation, but I'm sure there are cheaper methods available to achieve the same (encourage car-sharing, increase petrol tax, promote smaller cars, improve public transport, etc.).

In the end, Tesla as a company depends on government policies that are based on very shaky grounds.

[Dr Mordrid]

DoE and other studies show EV's are more efficient than IC engines even counting generation, transmission and charging losses. As for govt R&D and supporting credits that's how air mail, transcontinental railroads, the interstate highway sustem, rural electrification on a continental scale etc. were all brought into being so it's nothing new. The complainers are largely those with legacy technonogies, sales methodologies and investments in same.

[Marshmallowman]

The maintenance costs of EV's is also a lot lower than IC engines

[KRSESQ]

My biggest misgiving about EVs is that if it does go dead out in the boonies somewhere, there's no hiking down the highway to the nearest gas station with gas can in hand. Once EVs start becoming more prevalent I predict a nice niche market for ultra-small, ultra powerful portable emergency generators (IC or solar) that can give the batteries that needed boost to the next outlet.

Setting aside the fact that anyone who can afford an EV can also afford roadside assistance.

[VJ]

True... I think there was even this concept for a trailer with engine, to charge an EV. The biggest problem with it is that current EVs are not intended to be charged while driving.

OTOH, current cars can also break down that they require towing...

[KRSESQ]

And this just over the wire..

Some highlights:

The Model S was also substantially better in rollover risk, with the other top vehicles being approximately 50 percent worse. During testing at an independent facility, the Model S refused to turn over via the normal methods and special means were needed to induce the car to roll. The reason for such a good outcome is that the battery pack is mounted below the floor pan, providing a very low center of gravity, which simultaneously ensures exceptional handling and safety.

Of note, during validation of Model S roof crush protection at an independent commercial facility, the testing machine failed at just above 4 g's.

Slate's take:

...But Tesla is special. Because Tesla makes electric cars, anything that happens to the Model S isn't just a car story. It's a business story, it's a politics story, it's an energy story, it's an innovation story, it's an interesting story.


Elon Musk and his company and its car are in the public eye in the way that the typical car isn't. Any failure they have will be a much bigger deal than a failure at a comparably sized car company would be. But conversely, any time they manage to excel at anything they can guarantee that it'll get noticed. So suddenly it makes sense to try to do "the best" of everything you can. "Our sedan is the safest car in the world" sounds boring. But when your sedan is also an all-electric vehicle that's scored off-the-charts rave reviews in other respects, now you've got a nice feather in your cap.

[Dr Mordrid]

Can't wait to see their trucks

[MultimediaMan]

Elon has met his match here... what's biting him in the ass is scale. Disneyland scale...it works. Inner city...maybe. Intercity possibly. Regional... not gonna happen. I sense a little collusion here: there is a big push for a euro-style high speed rail system to be built here... and those also have limitations of scale. None of the cost projections I have seen cover maintenance and upkeep.

This transportation line cannot possibly make money...ever. You simply can't put enough people on it fast enough for it to make sense. You have a bandwidth problem which you can't easily fix - very few passengers on a car and a limited number of cars on a loop. A jet is cheaper, and has a helluva lot less maintenance than any 500km long track, you also get 35-300 aboard at a pop. The math doesn't work for hyperloop even when compared to a Greyhound bus.

With Hyperloop, If anything goes wrong... you lose the whole loop for some period of time, and worn or broken trackage is ~not~ simply going to be some 8" x 8" wooden beams and some steel rails to fix.

Heavy freight lines here in the U.S. are very good... and they spend a huge amount of time and money keeping the tracks in working order - there is also another issue... road crews. Train road crews are very well paid, and they have to be.. the job sucks. Why do you think Amtrack is always on the brink of insolvency? Maintenance of trackage is a huge burden.

As Brian pointed out, this is not a new idea...it goes back even before the 1960's, to the 30's-40's with radial engine-powered Els. I honestly think someone did not do their sums correctly.

Ike said it: Amateurs look at tactics... Professionals look at logistics. It is very easy to get focussed on the elegance and efficiency of a solution but not the general practicality or maintainability of it.

[Umfriend]

AFAIK, SNCF (French TGV) and the German High-speed train division post nice profits. Trains at 80 ppl per car and 12 cars are over 900 ppl.

Of course, we, the Dutch, ****ed it up again by buying cheap shitty trains but that is another matter.

[cjolley]

...

Heavy freight lines here in the U.S. are very good... and they spend a huge amount of time and money keeping the tracks in working order - there is also another issue... road crews. Train road crews are very well paid, and they have to be.. the job sucks. Why do you think Amtrack is always on the brink of insolvency? Maintenance of trackage is a huge burden.

...

Amtrack does not own the tracks it rides on and does not maintain them. It rides (except for a tiny fraction in the northeast) on US freight track. It's trains frequently even have to stop and wait on sidings because freight has the right of way.
And that track is terrible. The freight companies are ok with track that is just good enough for the train to not fall off.
Please believe me, I've been on thousands of miles of those tracks. They are awful.

[Dr Mordrid]

JumpStart is a crowdsource entrepreneurial fund supported by MFS Investment Management.

https://www.jumpstartfund.com/hyperloop.html

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/9/26/4773368/former-spacex-director-signs-on-to-crowdfunded-hyperloop-project

Former SpaceX director signs on to crowdfunded hyperloop project

Ever since Elon Musk revealed his Hyperloop designs in August, the inventor has been coy about any plans to construct the device, leaving many to wonder when the innovative transportation system would see the light of day. But today brings good news for Hyperloop fans, as a new group has formed to develop Musk's designs, with the help of expert engineers and an innovative crowdfunding platform.

"A TRUE OPEN-SOURCE DEVELOPMENT."

The group comes out of JumpStartFund, a crowdfunding platform that lets users form proto-corporations around ideas they find interesting. Musk's Hyperloop designs were posted on the site in August, and after generating enough interest, the team received permission from Musk to develop the Hyperloop further. After today, the group will be led by Marco Villa, former director of mission operations for SpaceX, and Dr. Patricia Galloway, a former president of the American Society of Civil Engineers. Musk had previously said that the SpaceX team was intimately involved with developing the concept, and Villa is confident that the plans are feasible. In a prepared statement, Villa said, "There do not seem to be any technical issues on this project that we can’t solve."

The team will begin raising funds for their designs soon, but at the moment they're still looking for more volunteers to sign onto the project in exchange for equity in the soon-to-be-formed corporation. As Villa told potential participants, "we look forward to receiving input and support from all the brilliant minds out there in the JumpStartFund community, to make this a true open-source development."

[Dr Mordrid]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10..._crowdfunding/

Elon Musk's futuristic Hyperloop public transport system took a tiny step closer towards becoming reality today as a name was chosen for the company which hopes to start work on the superfast tube train.

Headed up by Dr Marco Villa, former director of mission operations at SpaceX, and Dr Patricia Galloway, a former president of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the group is attempting to recruit people - and funding - to help it build Musk's untested transport technology.

Following a vote on JumpStartFund, a crowdfunding platform which allows users to form corporations to develop "interesting ideas", the firm has now officially been named Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT).

It has also reached deals with companies that will help develop the tech behind the Hyperloop - and, hopefully, build it. One of these companies, ANSYS has created an advanced computer simulation of the system which has "proved successful", according to HTT.

HTT has set out a four-stage plan for building the system which looks simple hopefully deceptively so starting with the basics (like an environmental analysis) and working all the way up to the construction of the Hyperloop itself. The group appears to ask for an initial $1m in funding and hopes to have "demos" of a scale model, we'd imagine ready by the first quarter of 2015. According to HTT's "milestones" page on JumpStartFund, Dr Villa and Dr Galloway will work together with volunteers on four project sections: "system", "capsule", "tube" and "manufacturing, integration and testing".
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"At ANSYS, we have already virtually tested an initial concept of the Hyperloop, using our highly mature simulation technology that is used today by major manufacturers of aircraft, rockets, trains and automobiles. We are excited about the Hyperloop project and are planning to make our software available to the development team at Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Inc."

HTT has also reached agreements with GloCal Network Corporation, which has apparently been tasked with fleshing out the mechanics of building the ambitious transportation system, and SUPRASTUDIO, a graduate programme with the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) which will explore where stations could be placed in two different cities.

We jumped on this once in a lifetime opportunity to work with Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, said Professor James Dimitrios Constantine Seferis, chairman of the board and executive director of GloCal Network Corporation. As a world leader in advanced materials and processes, our skill set is the perfect match to help the development team bring this project to life.