Music streaming... airplay? dlna? full internet radio?

[VJ]

Hello,

I finally am getting round to organizing my media system in the apartment. My initial plan was to get simple internet radios in different rooms. But I'm having a hard time finding internet radios that are nice AND have ethernet connection (wireless does not work well in the apartment, even short distances - a consequence of 30 cm thick, steel reinforced walls).
We mainly listen to online radio stations or music stored on the server.

Configuration at the moment:
a home-cinema amplifier (with multi-room output) + pc for media purpose; 1 Revo Radiostation

I would like to add something that works over ethernet and allows me to listen to online radio and play music stored on a server. Ideally I want another Revo Radiostation, but they don't manufacture that model anymore, and the new models either have no ethernet or are quite big...


I came across this speaker: http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...OC=3#/howtoTab
It is both Airplay and DLNA compliant. But how do they work?

I suspect I could stream from the PC to it, but does it also work with live streams? (I have 0 experience with airplay or dlna streaming).

Jörg

[Jammrock]

http://xbmc.org/I use DLNA at home. It's pretty easy to use and there are a ton of DLNA servers out there. Many of them free.

There is a new, open source, format competing with AirPlay called MagicPlay.

http://www.magicplay.com/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/03/magicplay_creator_crafts_raspberry_pi_demo/

It's too new for anything to have integrated support. But I've been thinking about building a RaspyFi system with a good, inexpensive DAC to drive it.


As for DLNA servers, these are some that I have played with in the past. I currently use Plex App, but I will be switching to JRiver next year.

http://xbmc.org/

http://plexapp.com/

http://www.jriver.com/

http://www.serviio.org/

http://tversity.com/

[dZeus]

Hello,

I finally am getting round to organizing my media system in the apartment. My initial plan was to get simple internet radios in different rooms. But I'm having a hard time finding internet radios that are nice AND have ethernet connection (wireless does not work well in the apartment, even short distances - a consequence of 30 cm thick, steel reinforced walls).
We mainly listen to online radio stations or music stored on the server.

Configuration at the moment:
a home-cinema amplifier (with multi-room output) + pc for media purpose; 1 Revo Radiostation

I would like to add something that works over ethernet and allows me to listen to online radio and play music stored on a server. Ideally I want another Revo Radiostation, but they don't manufacture that model anymore, and the new models either have no ethernet or are quite big...


I came across this speaker: http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...OC=3#/howtoTab
It is both Airplay and DLNA compliant. But how do they work?

I suspect I could stream from the PC to it, but does it also work with live streams? (I have 0 experience with airplay or dlna streaming).

Jörg

Both have a rather different way of operation. I'll try to explain both in relatively understandable language:

AirPlay:
- You play the music on a computer/tablet/phone, which decodes the audio stream which streams it in lossless format to the airplay device.
- For this reason, you cannot listen to music on the airplay device without a player (usually iTunes or a similar app) running on another device.
- (I think) it allows you to stream music with gapless and replaygain (if those things work in the player, such as iTunes).

DLNA
- You use a uPNP ControlPoint (for example Windows Media Player, LeiaDS, Linn Kinsky, etc.) to instruct the uPNP MediaRenderer device (the actual device hooked up to the speakers) to play a specific music file located on a uPNP media server (e.g. Windows Media Player with library sharing enabled, TwonkyMedia Server, minidlna, etc.). When the track ends, the ControlPoint instructs the player to avance to the next track (or it provides the next track through a specific uPNP command if the MediaRenderer supports this).
- This means that you can cut the connection of the ControlPoint as soon as you've instructed the MediaRenderer to start playing, and it will happily continue until the track finishes (and possibly the next track too, depending on the implementation).
- Gapless playback and replaygain need to be implemented on the MediaRenderer, I'm not aware of any that support this at this point.

Personally I like uPNP/DLNA as it is an open standard and many applications can be found to provide the different functionalities (ControlPoint, MediaRenderer, MediaServer). However, not being able to instruct the MediaRenderer to start going through a playlist is a real pain, requiring you to keep the ControlPoint open for whenever each track finishes playing. Some devices have an integrated ControlPoint (such as Philips streamium devices), which allow you to stream with only a uPNP MediaServer running (most NAS and modern routers with USB interface have a build-in uPNP MediaServer).

For example, the software I'm using:
- Rygel running on my NAS as a MediaRenderer which is outputting to a Terratec Phase 26 USB audio interface
- LeiaDS as ControlPoint on my Windows (or Linux) machines, and my HTC Android phone has a build-in ControlPoint/MediaServer
- TwonkyMedia Server as uPNP MediaServer on my NAS (although minidlna would probably work equally well on average for me).

[VJ]

I think with Airplay it is also possible to use e.g. an iPhone as control point to stream music from a file server to a speaker, but I'm not sure.

The DLNA/uPNP covers a lot of things, and has more options. Just the DLNA speaker thing is new to me, and it appears to be similar to Airplay. The problem I see is that you need 3 components: media renderer, control point and server.
Airplay basically combines controlpoint and server, but does not seem to offer some media-renderer/controlpoint combination (not counting docking stations).
In uPNP/DLNA, it is possible to find different combination of those three: my current Revo RadioStation is both uPNP controlpoint and media renderer (but it cannot accept media sent from a different control point). It can stream live streams (internet radio), browse a uPNP DLNA server, or a regular Samba server. The Sony speaker I found is just a media renderer without control point. It may be sufficient for me, but can it play back a live stream (internet radio)? Or does that depend on the server?

From the looks of things, I'm guessing that a good internet radio might be the best option: control point + media renderer in one...
I have been looking at the RaspBerry PI to make something, but I lack time to experiment with it. I also thought a cheap tablet might suit the purpose, but they don't have ethernet connectors. I even considered a smart monitor (running android), but they are quite expensive.

[VJ]

Actually, extending on it, a tablet might also work... Archos has the soundpad ( http://arnovatech.com/products/g3/ar...try=gr&lang=en ), a tablet that looks a bit like a radio and has ethernet.
Other tablets might work, but they would have to have ethernet, or work with one of those usb-ethernet dongles. Any experience with those? Added benefit of not only having radio, but also access to internet (and my girlfriend would have access to her list of recipes)... A bigger tablet would then be more comfortable... And just a nice table stand or wall mount...

[VJ]

O, about the uPNP controlpoints: they become harder to find. The Philips streamium series is discontinued...

[dZeus]

I think with Airplay it is also possible to use e.g. an iPhone as control point to stream music from a file server to a speaker, but I'm not sure.

If the iPhone decodes the music on the file server and sends it to the speaker using AirPlay (an encrypted and losslessly compressed audio stream), then that would be the normal operation of AirPlay. If it works differently, please tell me as I'm curious to know.

The DLNA/uPNP covers a lot of things, and has more options. Just the DLNA speaker thing is new to me, and it appears to be similar to Airplay. The problem I see is that you need 3 components: media renderer, control point and server.
Airplay basically combines controlpoint and server, but does not seem to offer some media-renderer/controlpoint combination (not counting docking stations).
In uPNP/DLNA, it is possible to find different combination of those three: my current Revo RadioStation is both uPNP controlpoint and media renderer (but it cannot accept media sent from a different control point). It can stream live streams (internet radio), browse a uPNP DLNA server, or a regular Samba server. The Sony speaker I found is just a media renderer without control point. It may be sufficient for me, but can it play back a live stream (internet radio)? Or does that depend on the server?

uPNP/DLNA MediaRenderer/ControlPoint/MediaServer can exist in different combinations. For example, the late Philips Streamium lines of network audio players basically were uPNP MediaRenderer + build-in ControlPoint that was limited to controlling the local MediaRenderer. Most software uPNP ControlPoints have a build-in uPNP MediaServer that can be used instead of connecting to a remote uPNP MediaServer.

Most MediaServers allow you to define live radio streams, but there are some compatibility requirements. You can LeiaDS's build in MediaServer to define some radio streams to try out (e.g. try it with a recent Windows Media Player as MediaRenderer). You can also try TwonkyServer, although in my opinion that product has gone downhill with social network integration and the like over the past few years.

And to nit-pick a bit: If your Revo RadioStation cannot be controlled by a ControlPoint, then it is not a uPNP MediaRenderer. If its 'ControlPoint' cannot control MediaRenderers, then it is not a ControlPoint either. To me it sounds like it is 'just' a media player that can connect to uPNP MediaServers to play back music.

From the looks of things, I'm guessing that a good internet radio might be the best option: control point + media renderer in one...
I have been looking at the RaspBerry PI to make something, but I lack time to experiment with it. I also thought a cheap tablet might suit the purpose, but they don't have ethernet connectors. I even considered a smart monitor (running android), but they are quite expensive.

Regarding Tablets: On the Android side it probably is easy to find MediaRenderers/ControlPoints/MediaServers, if it's not already build into the OS (I think it might be, as my HTC phone can do some of this). It's nice to be able to combine it with other uses, such as for recipes in the kitchen (an important reason for me to consider buying the new Nexus 7 that will be available here in France in a couple of days).

BTW. why can't you use WiFi for the tablet? If you put a access point with a good antenna in the centre of your apartment you should be able to cover it all I would think...

[VJ]

If the iPhone decodes the music on the file server and sends it to the speaker using AirPlay (an encrypted and losslessly compressed audio stream), then that would be the normal operation of AirPlay. If it works differently, please tell me as I'm curious to know.

Ok, so Airplay is out. :-) I don't want to be that dependant on specific hardware.

uPNP/DLNA MediaRenderer/ControlPoint/MediaServer can exist in different combinations. For example, the late Philips Streamium lines of network audio players basically were uPNP MediaRenderer + build-in ControlPoint that was limited to controlling the local MediaRenderer. Most software uPNP ControlPoints have a build-in uPNP MediaServer that can be used instead of connecting to a remote uPNP MediaServer.

It is surprising how little of such uPNP renderer+ controlpoints exist. Any suggestions?
I started this thread as I was looking at the Sony SA-NS310 speaker (which I considered to put in the kitchen). But I had no idea how it worked.

Most MediaServers allow you to define live radio streams, but there are some compatibility requirements. You can LeiaDS's build in MediaServer to define some radio streams to try out (e.g. try it with a recent Windows Media Player as MediaRenderer). You can also try TwonkyServer, although in my opinion that product has gone downhill with social network integration and the like over the past few years.

Ok, so it is a functionality of the server... We often listen to Streamingsoundtracks.com, or other channels, so that is actually the main function.

So one option is a uPNP renderer (like the speakers), a server and e.g. an Android phone with uPNP control point software. The server could be omitted for listening to live streams if the Android software can directly stream e.g. the livestream to the uPNP renderer. Still, sounds like it is not such a straight forward operation.

And to nit-pick a bit: If your Revo RadioStation cannot be controlled by a ControlPoint, then it is not a uPNP MediaRenderer. If its 'ControlPoint' cannot control MediaRenderers, then it is not a ControlPoint either. To me it sounds like it is 'just' a media player that can connect to uPNP MediaServers to play back music.

True, it does not integrate with other uPNP things.

Regarding Tablets: On the Android side it probably is easy to find MediaRenderers/ControlPoints/MediaServers, if it's not already build into the OS (I think it might be, as my HTC phone can do some of this). It's nice to be able to combine it with other uses, such as for recipes in the kitchen (an important reason for me to consider buying the new Nexus 7 that will be available here in France in a couple of days).

Yes, and this is currently what I'm thinking. I'm not sure about the whole uPNP controlpoint system, but if the Android device is also the renderer, it gets easier to find software to do things.

BTW. why can't you use WiFi for the tablet? If you put a access point with a good antenna in the centre of your apartment you should be able to cover it all I would think...

The apartment is an old communist building with reinforced concrete walls. Imagine 30 cm thick concrete walls, with chunks of granite and multiple steel supports embedded in the wall (drilling an opening for air conditioning pipes took one full day, with a specialized drill). Current distance from my router to the kitchen is about 8m in a straight line, and there is simply no wifi signal anymore. As soon as you are behind a second wall (e.g. outside wall and interior wall), a mobile phone signal is lost.

Consequently, I have put ethernet connections everywhere, so adding some access points is an alternative option I'm considering. Some small access point could be easily attached to such a port. My current options:
- an ethernet based network radio, but they are difficult to find. Options, in descending price order: Revo K2 - expensive, but if it is like my cheaper Revo, it is great; DnT internet radios - completely unknown manufacturer to me; Grundig internet radios; Dual internet radios; Arnova Soundpad - gets not good comments on audio quality, but has tablet functionality. I can get to non-ethernet based radios by adding an access point, and it does increase the choice a bit.
- a DLNA speaker with ethernet, but may require a server for live streams and may be less convenient to control (need for mobile or pc as controlpoint), audio can be synchronized
- an active speaker + audio over ethernet converter, but this adds clutter and does not seem convenient.
- a cheap tablet and something to connect to ethernet (usb-ethernet, or ethernet-wifi bridge)

I'm most tempted by the first or the last option, as these are offering full independence of any other hardware or software, and most intuitive control.
First option would be most natural to control and may be more compact; last option immediately opens a world of more possibilities (including e.g. internet access and easy access to recipes). Audio quality is important to some extent, but as it is a kitchen, there may be plenty of noises that make it pointless to go too high end audio.

I would love to see that Arnova Soundpad for real: it is basically an internet radio that runs Android and has a 7" touchscreen, basically an update from the Archos 35 Home Connect (Arnova is owned by Archos). But it is quite big; a normal 7" tablet on a compact stand (or wall mount) might take up less space (but then requires an access point).

[VJ]

Putting a tablet opens again the door to e.g. the Sony speaker. It could play back from the tablet (in better quality), or from a server. The tablet could be either controlpoint or source. And in that aspect: my phone subscription is almost up, and this means I would have a spare android phone, ideal as compact controlpoint, and a later upgrade can always be a tablet or so...

[VJ]

Hmm, just realized that it seems difficult to find uPNP server for Android that have livestreams...

Surprisingly how difficult it is to find a system in which you can have audio/streams (and even video). There used to be a wider choice of network audio players than there is now...

[Greebe]

Have you tried BubbleUPNP?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bubblesoft.android.bubbleupnp&hl=en

[VJ]

Thanks for the suggestion!

I'm currently reconfiguring my server (had some issues, so I'll reinstall everything), and then put a uPNP server on it. I'll first try Universal Media Server, but also have my eye on Serviio and MediaBrowser3 (not sure the last one is uPNP, but I liked the Media Browser plugin for Windows Media Center, and might give this a go).

Once the server is up and running (needs a few days), I'll fully experiment with uPNP streaming, using other computers with a uPNP client (e.g. Windows Media Player), phone and iPad. I already came across BubbleUPNP for Android, and will try that one. If it works well, the Sony speaker becomes an option for the kitchen...

[Umfriend]

I use Serviio on my server (if only as there is an add-in for the dashboard of WHS2011) and it serves me well. I'm pretty sure it can connect to and stream-on online streams as well.

[VJ]

Are you using the free or paid version?
UMS has the downside there is no webinterface, but the server is a normal computer, so I can access it for configuring (or remote desktop).

[Umfriend]

Serviio has a paid version??? ;-)

Free version I use.