HEV/EV batteries

[Brian Ellis]

I see Toyota and Lexus have reverted to NiMH batteries in their hybrid cars. Honda have reverted to NiMH for their Insight model but have retained Li-ion for the Civic Hybrid. The Nissan Leaf runs on Li-ion but that's a full EV.

The photo in this URL purports to show the remains of Fisker EVs after they got wet. http://lithium-ion.weebly.com/

[UtwigMU]

I see Toyota and Lexus have reverted to NiMH batteries in their hybrid cars. Honda have reverted to NiMH for their Insight model but have retained Li-ion for the Civic Hybrid. The Nissan Leaf runs on Li-ion but that's a full EV.

The photo in this URL purports to show the remains of Fisker EVs after they got wet. http://lithium-ion.weebly.com/

Is there enough lithium to convert significant percentage of roadgoing cars to Li-Ion.

BMW just released lithium EV i3.

[Brian Ellis]

This current estimate [pf reserves] totals 28.4 million tonnes Li equivalent to more than 150.0 million tonnes of lithium carbonate of which nearly 14.0 million tonnes lithium (about 74.0 million tonnes of carbonate) are at active or proposed operations.

This can be compared with current demand for lithium chemicals which approximates to 84,000 tonnes as lithium carbonate equivalents (16,000 tonnes Li).

So that's < 2,000 times as much as is used today, so the short answer is NO, but there is sufficient for the niche market of EVs. Recycling Li salts is easy but I don't know how much is done.

The real problem is that Li is the most reactive metal in the periodic table and, even as ionic salts, is very unforgiving of the slightest battery manufacturing or charger error, hence the danger outlined by mobiles exploding, fires in Sony laptops, Fisker, Dreamliners etc. I would be very apprehensive of Li-ion in a car, especially as cobalt types are the most charge-efficient.

Several plug-in electric vehicle fire incidents have taken place since the introduction of mass-production plug-in electric vehicles in 2010. Most of them have been thermal runaway incidents related to the lithium-ion batteries and have involved the Zotye M300 EV, Chevrolet Volt, Fisker Karma, BYD e6, Dodge Ram 1500 Plug-in Hybrid, Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid, and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Outlander P-HEV.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in...fire_incidents)

[Greebe]

I do RC planes and stuff and can attest to the dangers of such cells. Know people who lost their homes, garages and cars to them. Wonderful hobby, very risky, Must have the correct type of extinguisher and sand pail to contain. Special fireproof bags to store them are even available now.

[Marshmallowman]

yeah, just starting to dabble in RC. The consensus of people who have beeb usinig lipo for years is to always watch your lipos as they charge, preferably on a concrete slab or something.
Store them in fire safe or outside, or both... I have been regaled with a few burnt down houses and shed stories with lipos as well. Saw a small one burn up after a small crash, not even that a bad an impact.

The are also quite a pain to transport, legally in OZ and I guess most places, you are only alllowed to ship up to few Amp/hrs worth batteries at a time.

I keep mine in one of those fire proof lipo bags outside laying on concrete...as to driving down the road sitting on 100kg worth, I'll leave that to others to work out the problems before I give it a shot.

[VJ]

What is the difference between the LiPo batteries for RC, and those in some phones?

I'm also always thinking about getting into RC with some small parkflyer or something...

[Marshmallowman]

The main thing seems to be less safety features.
Most phone batterries have hard cases and charging /discharging protection built in.
Lipo for RC usually has no protection circuitry, and usually just a bunch of lipo cells stacked and shrinkwrapped.
Though hardbody cases for some lipo packs are available , usually for rc cars as they have alot more impacts.

RC lipos are optimise for discharge rates, eg 5000mAh lipo pack can be discharge at "30C" which is 30 times the charge rate or something, eg 150 Amps from something that sits in you hand.

[SitFlyer]

So one formula of lithium battery is unsafe and that makes all formulas unsafe ?