Michigan concealed carry may expand

[Dr Mordrid]

Concealed carry permit holders in Michigan can already carry in exclusion zones if the gun is not concealed but in a visible holster - Dodge City style. What this law would do is allow concealed carry in those locales if one takes extra training.

CBS-Detroit....

Lawmakers Approve Changes To Concealed Weapons Law

LANSING (WWJ) - A State Senate committee on Thursday approved changes to Michigan’s concealed weapons law that include allowing people to carry concealed guns in churches, schools and sports arenas.

The legislation now goes to a vote in the full Senate.

Under the new law citizens would be allowed to carry their weapons into churches, schools and sports arenas — places they currently aren’t allowed to be packing heat. The proposal would also eliminate the state’s 83 county gun boards and transfer the power to issue CCW permits to local sheriff’s departments.

“Basically it’s a pretty huge rewrite of the concealed weapons permit law,” said WWJ Lansing Bureau Chief Tim Skubick.

Under the amended law “highly trained” permit holders would be able to carry in the gun-free zones – which would require extra hours of training and more rounds fired at the range beyond the current basic requirements.

One state lawmaker on Thursday used a dramatic demonstration to point out what he calls the “absurdity” in Michigan’s current concealed weapons law.

State Senator Arlan Meekhoff pulled back his jacket in a Senate Committee hearing to reveal his holstered gun. He demonstrated how he could openly carry in schools and churches, but how it would be illegal if he covered the pistol with his coat.

Meekhoff said eliminating those gun free zones is not the goal.

“What we’re trying to do is to have the most highly trained citizens who are CPL holders to … give them the opportunity to defend themselves even in these areas, and carry concealed,” Meekhoff said. “because not everybody’s comfortable with seeing a weapon on somebody’s belt or on their hip.”

Meekhoff said he almost always carries his gun during Senate business, which is legal.

State Senator Mike Green, who is chief sponsor of the new legislation, was the original sponsor of the “shall issue” law in 2001, which created for the first time the ability to carry a concealed weapon in Michigan.

“When this first proposal came up for concealed weapons, Jennifer Granholm, a former prosecutor, said Michigan will turn into the wild, wild, West, that there would be people running around with concealed weapons, shooting one another. And it turns out she had to eat her words and Mike Green made her eat her words because it did not turn into the wild, wild, West,” said Skubick.

Currently, there are more than 305,000 active CCW permits.

“Here’s the point that Mr. Green makes, that this is a deterrent to crime. If you don’t know if the person next to you on the bus or at the sports arena is carrying heat and there’s a doubt about it, you’re going to think twice about committing a crime or trying to accost them or whatever, that is the theory. But, the anti-gun crowd says if there’s a gun in some place, eventually someone’s going to use it and somebody’s going to get hurt,” said Skubick.

“This is a long debate over the second amendment that we will continue to have in our blessed country until we go under,” he continued.

[Elie]

That is just crazy!!!

[Dr Mordrid]

Try this - if you follow the exclusion zones and carry openly (exposed holster) you don't even need a concealed carry permit. Been that way in Michigan since 1947.

Around here seeing someone with a pistol is about as common as seeing someone with a fanny pack, and a lot of those fanny packs have a pistol in them - they have a quick-open holster built in. Very popular with women, along with bra holsters and underwear with a holster pocket.

[Brian Ellis]

For God's sake (literally), in churches? Even in the army, all weapons were forbidden in base chapels!

What about in mosques, temples or other places of worship? Or is there religious discrimination? Perhaps Mitt Romney's famous undergarments should be made from Kevlar!

And let's not forget that kid in Florida, murdered by a vigilante carrying, when he couldn't carry a gram of intelligence - and getting away with it.

[Dr Mordrid]

For God's sake (literally), in churches? Even in the army, all weapons were forbidden in base chapels!

I know several pastors, and a Shi'a Imam, who carry regularly, and carry in a church etc. is up to the pastor. Most in these parts are carry-friendly. Even know a pastor who makes custom holsters.

And let's not forget that kid in Florida, murdered by a vigilante carrying, when he couldn't carry a gram of intelligence - and getting away with it.

not as open and shut case as is being portrayed in the media. An eyewitness who called 911 that night saw the kid on top of Zimmerman pounding his head on the sidewalk. Zimmerman was the one screaming in the 911 call, not the kid, and he had a broken nose and an open wound on the back of his head. He also had grass stains on his back. All of this is consistant with the eyewitness report.

[cjolley]

It's also consistent with him provoking a fight and then shooting the kid in the aftermath.
He was told by the 911 operator not to continue to follow the kid and did anyway.
We have neighborhood watch and you are not even supposed to leave your vehicle. Just report to the police.

And what's with the sports arena thing? There isn't anyplace there to safely take a shot.
"Look! Bad guy shooting into the crowd! I think I'll help by shooting into the crowd too!"

[Dr Mordrid]

While violating neighborhood watch rules and what the dispatcher said are ill advised they aren't illegal. There was also a new bit of the 911 tape where once told to break off his pursuit Zimmerman said "OK." He then said he turned back but was attacked by the kid. If that can be born out (proximity to Z's SUV etc.) then the responsibility for the final confrontation flips to the kid.

As to arenas; stats show most incidents don't occur in the arena proper but in the restrooms, tunnels etc. where a victim can be isolated during the event. Rapes, robberies etc.

EDIT: just got a mail that a second witness confirms the first - the kid was the aggressor.

Also: Florida has a law (Fla. Code 843.20) against going after neighborhood watchers, which further complicates matters.

Previous story - waiting for other links ....

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

[cjolley]

Now that it's being investigated by outside authorities I guess we'll see.
My guess is that it is going to be a lot different from the local police version.


PS There were a lot more than two witnesses. The local police are selectively leaking.

[VJ]

Here’s the point that Mr. Green makes, that this is a deterrent to crime. If you don’t know if the person next to you on the bus or at the sports arena is carrying heat and there’s a doubt about it, you’re going to think twice about committing a crime or trying to accost them or whatever, that is the theory.

Well, not sure about this one... Of course, I'm from a country where you NEVER see someone carry a gun (apart from policemen, and even then it depends on their task) and never wonder if he/she might carry one.

But even if it is true... isn't sort of the wrong way of keeping law and order? Sort of like bringing in the wild west... But ok, different cultures, different customs...

But does that justify it in schools? Juveniles can be unstable (hormones, pees pressure, ...), so that does not feel right...

[Jammrock]

This law could bring a whole new meaning to sports rage :s I'm not really against conceal carry laws, as long as you're required to take training and register your handguns, but carry in packed venues is a bit much even for me. Especially in schools and sports arenas.

[Dr Mordrid]

>

But even if it is true... isn't sort of the wrong way of keeping law and order? Sort of like bringing in the wild west... But ok, different cultures, different customs...

In the US 49 of the 50 states have citizens arrest statutes, so in a very real way the adult populace has some degree of police powers. Most don't use them, and many don't even know they exist, but it is the law. I've made several citizens arrests myself, and under Michigan law a citizen can shoot a fleeing felony suspect to accomplish an arrest.

Call it "the unorganized militia" (a real doctrine)

But does that justify it in schools? Juveniles can be unstable (hormones, pees pressure, ...), so that does not feel right...

Students cannot carry since K-12 school rules forbid it, you have to be 21 to buy the pistol and ammo (Federal law,) and you have to be 18+ to posess the weapon or get a carry permit. Effectively only staffers (if allowed by the schools,) guards, or visiting adults with the enhanced permits could do it.

A new wrinkle is permitting licensed adult college students to carry on campus and in their dorms. Several states have passed it (not sure if Michigan's new proposal includes it) and it seems to be OK. Many people think one armed citizen in the right place could have stopped incidents like the Virginia Tech massacre, and there have been non-school incidents where this has happened.

[cjolley]

...Many people think one armed citizen in the right place could have stopped incidents like the Virginia Tech massacre, and there have been non-school incidents where this has happened.

Like Loughner was stopped in armed-to-the-teeth Arizona.

[Brian Ellis]

I know several pastors, and a Shi'a Imam, who carry regularly, and carry in a church etc. is up to the pastor. Most in these parts are carry-friendly. Even know a pastor who makes custom holsters.

Obviously men of God! Certainly not my God!

not as open and shut case as is being portrayed in the media. An eyewitness who called 911 that night saw the kid on top of Zimmerman pounding his head on the sidewalk. Zimmerman was the one screaming in the 911 call, not the kid, and he had a broken nose and an open wound on the back of his head. He also had grass stains on his back. All of this is consistant with the eyewitness report.

Strange this comes out so long after the murder through his lawyer, plenty of time for his "wounds" to have healed and therefore cannot be verified. The original police report said he had blood on him, but it didn't say whose blood and this was apparently not checked.

There is certainly doubt who was screaming. However, Zimmerman was explicitly told by the 911 dispatcher that he should not follow the kid but let the police do the job. He deliberately disobeyed that order, showing that he was not of good faith. That kid would be alive today if he had followed that advice.

Now, how do you explain that he was allowed to carry arms with his less than squeaky-clean record:

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee said Zimmerman was released because he had a “squeaky clean” record.
But if Lee had actually checked that record, he would have known that Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for battery on a police officer and resisting arrest. Strangely, all charges against Zimmerman were dropped in that case.

Obviously, I don't have all the evidence but there is surely enough doubt that Zimmerman was possibly less-than truthful, especially as there appears to be only one witness backing his story and several saying the opposite. I would like to know how someone who was 'decked' with his assailant pinning him down would be able to shoot him in the middle of the chest. Forensic testing of the bullet trajectory would have been able to prove that if it were true.

[Umfriend]

Huh? The charges were dropped. No chance the charges arrest was unjust? That, for one reason or another, the cop in question was the bad guy there? Rather easy to use dropped charges to question someones integrity.

[Dr Mordrid]

The 2005 charges were dropped because the cop was out of uniform, off duty, and didn't properly ID himself so Zimmerman had no way of knowing he was a cop. In such a situation the "reasonable man" standard allows resistance.

OTOH the kid was under suspension at school for posession, and had previous school incidents where he had been caught with what were described as burglary tools, including a large screwdriver that would be construed as a weapon in many schools - usable as a shiv, and 12 pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack. Not the innocent that's been portrayed.