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  • radiators...

    Yes, phase 2 of my renovation is being planned as we speak. One of the issues is... radiators:
    Currently, I have these original cast iron radiators which I would love to keep (the style really fits in with the apartment). I have been told cleaning them might be expensive, but I'm still waiting for the estimate - it would be my preferred road of action. At the same time, I know faults could be detected, calling for a replacing of one or more radiators.

    The big issue is that I don't seem have many alternatives: the pressure of the heating circuit in the building is 16 bar (1.6 Mpa) and most radiators are only suited up to 5-10 bar. The ones I found so far that can take the pressure are really ugly aluminium things, that really don't fit with the style of the apartment.

    Kitchen and bathroom will be renovated, and particularly in the bathroom I would like a nice design radiator... In the bathroom, there currently is no radiator (but a heating pipe). But in this type of radiators, the allowed pressures found are even lower. The kitchen has a cast iron one, which I think could be used as a replacement for one of the other ones (in case one turns out to have issues): they are all about the same size.

    So... anyone know of radiators that can take this pressure; style a bit like the old cast iron ones (but no curly things), and then modern bathroom designs...
    Links to manufacturer websites or so?

    Thanks!
    pixar
    Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

  • #2
    Shutoff valve ???

    I don't suppose that it would be possible to intercept the feed pipe and install a shutoff valve to isolate the entire group of radiators or at individuale radiators and then deal with them?

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    • #3
      Well, we are planning to add a shutoff valve to all the radiators (no single entry point), but the circuit will have to be drained to do it. But that is no problem; it will be done in summer.

      The bigger problem is finding radiators that can handle the 16 bar pressure and still look nice. I would prefer to clean the current ones. But if it turns out to be too expensive, or some turn out to be in need of replacement, I will need to get new ones. Also, in the bathroom for sure I need a new one... But most radiators seem to only work in the 5-10 bar range...
      pixar
      Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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      • #4
        16Bar? .................... what - you staying on a cloud?

        What sorta flow rate is this system handling?
        Lawrence

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        • #5
          Could it be because it is centralised heating in an appartment block?
          Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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          • #6
            Lvr: Umf has the explanation. It is a 22 story building with centralized heating (even connected to city heating). Looking at different radiator manufacturer sites, the pressures are either: up to 8-10 bar, up to 16 bar or up to 23 bar. But so far, I have not found nice ones at 16 bar...
            pixar
            Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by VJ View Post
              Lvr: Umf has the explanation. It is a 22 story building with centralized heating (even connected to city heating). Looking at different radiator manufacturer sites, the pressures are either: up to 8-10 bar, up to 16 bar or up to 23 bar. But so far, I have not found nice ones at 16 bar...
              You actually staying up high then too or are you near the bottom?

              If near the top of that building you can deduct 1Bar for every 10M in height above the pump because that is only what you will be seeing if the pump outlet is 16Bar ...................... thus you could possibly get away with much lower spec'd heaters and make life a lot simpler
              Lawrence

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LvR View Post
                You actually staying up high then too or are you near the bottom?

                If near the top of that building you can deduct 1Bar for every 10M in height above the pump because that is only what you will be seeing if the pump outlet is 16Bar ...................... thus you could possibly get away with much lower spec'd heaters and make life a lot simpler
                I'm on the 4th floor... The administration said I should inquire with the plumber of the building, and he said I need radiators rated for 16 bar. So even deducting a couple of bar to compensate for my floor, will not offer more choice (it will still be more than 10). Also, there is the insurance matter if something happens: if I put the wrong radiators (in their opinion), it is my responsibility.

                I checked for pressure reducers, but they seem to be only available for water rather than for heating. Their rated temperature is usually around 70° (some have 80°, but not many), so that also does seem like an option.
                pixar
                Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                • #9
                  Pressure reducers will/can not work in your situation - you have the inlet and outlet pressures roughly the same on a heater (even on your floor) - reducing the inlet pressure will only guarantee that no flow is happening through that loop because the outlet of that heater is still connected to line pressure...............while the heater is effectively still at line pressure.

                  Its a pity you are so low then .................... height is definitely your buddy with water pressure in your situation and no knowledgeable plumber or insurance company can argue with simple hydro and gravity facts
                  Lawrence

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                  • #10
                    Yes, I just thought: there must be some way of reducing it, but apparently not. Well, the radiators for 16 bar exist, so it will just be a difficult search to find nice ones...

                    My current plan is to have the original, cast iron ones cleaned. But I just want to be sure to have a plan B if one of them turns out to be bad. If one turns out to be bad, the one from the kitchen could be used as a "spare" and a new one could be installed in the kitchen. This would be ok: kitchen will be renovated, so having a more modern radiator there is less of an issue there than it would be in the rooms. And the radiators have roughly the same size.

                    So basically, I'm focussing my search on nice radiators for bathroom and kitchen, hoping that at most 1 of the current radiators might have a problem. But it would be nice to at least know of nice ones that would fit the rooms too.
                    pixar
                    Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                    • #11
                      I just learned a good reason for the high pressure...

                      The normal circuit pressure would probably be around 8-9 bar, but apparently the building administration can demand higher rated radiators to allow them to do pressure tests when pipes get replaced or things get modified. So while the working pressure is lower, they can require habitants to install radiators that have a higher working pressure.

                      This was told to me by the plumber who actually presented a manufacturer that offers higher pressure models for some radiators in their range (going up to 18 bar). It sounds plausible to me...
                      pixar
                      Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                      • #12
                        Oh, cleaning the old ones costs approx. 50 euro / element of the radiator. Counting all the elements, I have about 48 of them. The new radiators - with the high pressure option - would be about 70% of that cost. So I'm still doubting about it...
                        pixar
                        Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by VJ View Post
                          Oh, cleaning the old ones costs approx. 50 euro / element of the radiator. Counting all the elements, I have about 48 of them. The new radiators - with the high pressure option - would be about 70% of that cost. So I'm still doubting about it...
                          48 radiators??? Man, I own (that is, the bank allows me to sleep in) 300 m^2 and have less than 20...

                          But I just want to be sure to have a plan B if one of them turns out to be bad.
                          With you luck so far, I'd like to have a plan C, D, ...dang a plan whole alphabet!
                          Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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                          • #14
                            Not radiators, but those vertical elements of which cast iron radiators are made off. For the renovation, they are completely taken apart, and the price is per each of those elements. The 48 elements are distributed over 5 radiators.

                            This one for instance has 13 elements:

                            (this is not mine)

                            I have in total 5 radiators, and summing al the elements of all of them yields about 48.

                            According to some website I found, I would need about 5600 BTU/h or 1700 W of heating capacity for a room that is 5m x 3.5m and has double glazing. Does that seem realistic?

                            If so, then the price table of the new radiators tells me that it would be similar in price to either renovate the old ones, or get the new ones (I need to add some additional options to the new ones: higher pressure option, intake on same side option, ...). And then all the adjustments to make it fit...
                            Last edited by VJ; 16 April 2012, 07:58.
                            pixar
                            Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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                            • #15
                              The capacity you need also depend on where you are at. In the Netherlands they typically estimate the required BTU based on the assumption of -4C outside and +20C inside or somesuch, accounting for efficiency and time to reach +20C etc.

                              I'd take local advice for things like this, I guess in Poland it can get somewhat colder.
                              Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                              [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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