Battery-only cars should be banned.

[Evildead666]

..and replaced with a hydrogen rotary engine.

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/rotary/hre/about/index.html

Seriously, I don't see how come this hasn't caught on a LOT.
Dual fuel, H2 and regular petrol, so no probs about distance.
H2 use is about as clean as an ICE can get.

It would allow a transition period with no hiccups, until the H2 fuel is available in more areas.

There may be a problem refuelling and storing, but if you bring back those dudes that did the filling for you (and check oil, wipers, clean headlights etc), then it would also create jobs.

I really don't see the economics of building LOTS of large batteries, made from non-recyclable* materials, which are going to last a given time, and then be probably buried in a landfill. The electricity is still going to come from Nuclear/Gas/Coal anyway, so its not as if it was 100% clean to begin with.

*(or so hard/expensive to recycle its not worth it.)

So what if H2 is a 'Terrorists Dream' ? Most of them would probably be happy we are not slapping them around for their Oil, probably regretting the large money influx that once was.

H2 would enable just about any country in the world to be a producer, with those with Hydroelectric and/or Solar a major boost for 'non polluting' production as well as usage.
(OK the solar panel have a lifespan, but that could be quite a long time in the desert, and Hydroelectric is a one time investment, then just upkeep).

It seems to me that money is yet again the only deciding factor, but not the cost of implementing it, but the cost loss of losing Oil dependancy.
Some greedy bastards don't want to get their hand out of the pie, and will drag us down with them 'for a profit'.

These RX-8's have been leased in Norway since Feb 2006, 5 years now.

Maybe Wikileaks should have a little rummage and find out who's holding this tech back?

[Evildead666]

It could probably serve as a range-extender/generator for an electrically driven car, with electric motors for propulsion.
Keep some sort of battery or capacitor tech to regenerate from braking, and smooth the delivery from the generator.

[Evildead666]

Hmm, power output could be the culprit.

On Petrol : 210ps (207 BHP)
On H2 : 109ps (108 BHP).

Torque isn't much better, 23m-Kg(163 ft-lb) to H2's 14.3m-Kg(103 ft-lb).

edit : added conversions to imperial.

[Dr Mordrid]

The problem is, and shall be, the difficulties with establishing a hydrogen infrastructure. It degrades and leaks through normal pipelines, problems with in-vehicle storage are far from being solved, and other issues.

Here in the US we already have a huge natural gas infrastructure and hundreds of years of domestic supply, a huge advantage if we ever have to go cold turkey off oil - especially since converting existing vehicles to it from gasoline can be done far cheaper than creating a hydrogen infrastructure. Hell - custom car suppliers sell the kits and have been for 20 years and the biggest hypermarket chain in our area has the refueling capability.

[Elie]

Hydrogen is very dangerous, we need a renewable energy source, in the form of a cell that lasts about 10 years, safe to produce and green.

[Brian Ellis]

This is ridiculous. The Wankel engine is notoriously inefficient and consumes more oil than fuel. Hydrogen comes either from splitting hydrocarbons (eg methane) and the carbon is emitted as CO2 or from electrolysis, using electricity generated from coal/oil/natural gas (in most countries). You would have the extra weight/bulk of two tanks AND twice the problems of crash resistance.

And batteries are recycled.

[MultimediaMan]

Wankels are neither mechanically inefficient nor are they high oil consumption anymore (and haven't been for Decades)...the Mazda RX- series Rotaries are the pre-eminent Wankel engine of the 20th./ 21st. century. Modified versions of these engines are routinely used in several types of aircraft.

The prime issues with the Wankel are the relative complexity of the engine (built along the center of the axis of the crankshaft), and precision required to manufacture the engine...the rotor tips tend to be fragile and are prone to burning, degrading compression and causing blow-by. Attempts to actively cool the Rotors/Tips have met with limited success to date

Mazda has tried crankshaft-fed cooling galleries, and circulating cooling oil though the rotor through a galleries in the unswept areas of the rotor (similar to piston aircraft aircraft engines which direct a stream of oil to the bottom of the piston to draw heat away from the crown).

The Crankshafts on Wankels are pressed-together multi-piece units which are very expensive to produce, assemble and true; the crankshafts and rotors need to use roller bearings instead of plain (hydrodynamic) bearings due to the close tolerances of the rotor-to-chamber fit. (Just like 2 Stroke engine crankshafts); Wankels which have high thrust loads on the spinning axis of the crankshaft require a separate thrust bearing assembly to prevent damage to the engine bearings. Wankels generally require robust air filtration systems and require low-soot fuels./ lean mixtures to prevent undue rotor and chamber wear due to carbon build-up. This is one reason you don't see too many Diesel Wankels.

[Evildead666]

This is ridiculous. The Wankel engine is notoriously inefficient and consumes more oil than fuel. Hydrogen comes either from splitting hydrocarbons (eg methane) and the carbon is emitted as CO2 or from electrolysis, using electricity generated from coal/oil/natural gas (in most countries). You would have the extra weight/bulk of two tanks AND twice the problems of crash resistance.

And batteries are recycled.

I'm sorry, I read that most Lithium batteries are NOT recycled. (redact that, haven't been reading in the right place)
There are two companies who do so iirc, and it is very hard/expensive.
The current recycling method is to bury them for a while.

Lithium being a finite source, and limited recycling, its not a great idea to use it for a huge amount of batteries.

Crash resistance is not a problem, LPG has been used in cars for some time too, and has passed crash tests.
H2 may have more trouble, but that doesn't mean we have to leave it out altogether.

Even in fuel cell vehicles, hydrogen will have to be transported, probably in a mixture, which will be more than the hydrogen itself. Milking the population for money.

If its too simple, you don't make money.
Make it complex, and complex fuel, and you have the monopoly.

These Wankel cars exist, and function as stated. If there are inefficient, whoop de doo, its clean!! Time can be spent on making them more fuel efficient as time goes on.

Also, in reading what I wrote above, there was a little piece on producing the H2 with Solar/Hydro power, so it would be relatively clean.

edit : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery nothing about recycling that i could see at first glance.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/propulsion_materials/pmp_05_gaines.pdf

edit2 : http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ling_batteries

[Evildead666]

The problem is, and shall be, the difficulties with establishing a hydrogen infrastructure. It degrades and leaks through normal pipelines, problems with in-vehicle storage are far from being solved, and other issues.

Here in the US we already have a huge natural gas infrastructure and hundreds of years of domestic supply, a huge advantage if we ever have to go cold turkey off oil - especially since converting existing vehicles to it from gasoline can be done far cheaper than creating a hydrogen infrastructure. Hell - custom car suppliers sell the kits and have been for 20 years and the biggest hypermarket chain in our area has the refueling capability.

Keep pumping that Fraking water into your underground and you'll be importing water from outside the US, or using gas powered electricity to de-saline sea water.
Gas isn't clean either, or ecological. You are going to rape large parts of you're country, and water table, for quick profit.
Shale gas is very hard to extract.

Just the companies involved, and who is/was on their board of directors etc is good reading.
Conflict of interest doesn't seem to be in anyones vocab.

edit : one comment in the 'Gasland' documentary was the politician who spouted "Terrorism" as a reason to continue the fraking process. One word, blurted out to get a knee-jerk reaction.

[Dr Mordrid]

I'm sorry, I read that most Lithium batteries are NOT recycled. (redact that, haven't been reading in the right place)
There are two companies who do so iirc, and it is very hard/expensive.
The current recycling method is to bury them for a while.
>

GM Global Technologies Operations patented an economical method of recycling/renewing the LiION techs coming on line with most car battery makers in 2012 and it goes live the same year. One means involves the car owner waiting while their car battery is re-done on-site and in real time. Swap-outs could also be done.

Batteries will be reconditioned 3-4 times for cars, then another cycle or two for use as powet grid buffers - a project they've been working on with the battery and power companies & Feds since the Voltec work began.