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Brian Ellis
25th May 2007, 23:07
Torturing an animal (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PBKB5G0&show_article=1&image=large) for 3 hours.

KRSESQ
26th May 2007, 00:06
On the one hand, the shooter and Buddhist in me says this kid needs to work on his aim to make his kills faster and cleaner. On the other hand, going after a brute like this is no small feat, even for an adult. This is not Wilbur. Wild pigs can be vicious animals. Hell, DOMESTIC pigs can be vicious animals! If this one had charged, the kid would have been trampled to jelly in seconds. Gripping hand, 700-800 lbs of sausage from this thing can feed a lot of people.

Kevin

Brian Ellis
26th May 2007, 01:02
No, the thing that got me was the father and friend with high power rifles ready in case it charged the kid, but they allowed the animal to bleed for 3 hours, so that the kid could claim the kill with a pistol, which is hardly an adequate hunting tool.

I have nothing against hunting if it is a vital necessity and provided it is done as humanely as possible. I am against blood lust, especially if it is taught to kids, even if under the name of so-called "sport".

And I would never wish to be anywhere near to any 11 y-o kid toting a pistol!

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 01:11
No one should try killing a hog until they're big enough to use a proper (read: large caliber) weapon accurately. IMO pistol big game hunts are for experts only, and you're talking to a long time pistol hunter.

I pefer a Thompson/Center G2 Contender in 45-70 for hogs (below). One well placed shot = one kill.

That said I will take Erik on a hog hunt as soon as he can take his classes & get a license AND handle one of my big bored rifles; maybe the 300 Mag, .375 Mag or the .50 plains rifle. The license he can get at 12, but we'll see if he's man enough for the cannons by then.

http://digitalvideo.8m.net/tc4570.jpg

MultimediaMan
26th May 2007, 01:16
Really, Brian. Sometimes you talk out of your @$$; imperiously declaring this person a candidate for becoming some violent monster when you likely have no knowledge or expertise hunting dangerous game. It is like calling a transplant surgeon a butcher for removing organs from organ donors. You have indicated in previous posts and threads, that you are somewhat of a layperson on the subject of hunting, and generally dislike hunting and guns in general. You are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to label someone a monster-in-training.

Hunting is about killing as humanely as possible. Let's put those three hours in perspective, shall we?

Three hours to kill an animal which weighs as much as a small horse, but built as nearly tough as a Cape Buffalo. The young man is to be commended for tracking and killing the wounded animal. Suffering is a terrible thing: if you are going hunting, rest assured you have already made the decision to kill a living thing: this is a morally acceptable thing. It is also accepted, but maybe not emphasized enough, that at that point you are morally obligated to kill as quickly as possible. No one likes to see any creature suffer. However, things do go wrong on occasion: this fact does not make you a savage or a monster. It DOES make you responsible for harvesting the animal as humanely as possible.

It is possible (and likely) that our intrepid hunter had no idea how big the animal he shot actually was until after he hit it the first time. But again, you are now commited to killing the animal. You cannot un-shoot it or take it to the vet at that point.

Leaving a wounded animal in the field is a careless and dangerous act; careless because the animal was left in a hopeless state to suffer for a possibly lengthy period of time (days, even weeks), and could have well posed a threat to any bystander (hunter or otherwise) which may have crossed it's path before it expired. Wild Hogs can be aggressive even unprovoked. Now put the animal in pain and see what it's disposition might be.

I personally don't think he should have been going after this thing with a handgun of any caliber; 8 shots merely illustrates how tough the animal likely was. If I were to have been carrying a my hunting rifle of choice for that type of animal, I would have felt considerably undergunned. However, this is not case of poor planning, this is an extraordinary case of perseverance.

Case in point: I normally use a .358 Winchester for Boar with a heavy jacketed (275 Grain) softnose bullet. This would not have been enough for that Boar, barring an ideal shot. I had known ahead of time I was going after a 1000+ lb hog, I would have brought a .375 Ultramag or a .416 Ultramag (I don't even have a .416, but I know my dad has that particular chambering reamer in stock, and I think he also has a .416 barrel blank sitting in the barrel rack...).

The .50 S&W magnum is a powerful cartridge, but the sectional density (Mass divided by Diameter, squared) of the the bullet cannot compare to a rifle in terms of penetrating power. It's more than enough for a thin-skinned deer or small to "large" sized hog (~350Lbs). 8 Rounds expended was a case of not having enough gun. But who knew? Even the "high powered rifles" the article mentions may not have been sufficient for an animal of this size. Most of the time, they use Carbine-class rounds (.444 Marlin, .45-70) which also suffer from the same sectional density problems that the .50 S&W does.

I would be willing to bet dollars to dimes this young man will never commit a violent crime, at any time in his life. Why? This young man knows there is no reset button in real life. He knows what his weapons are capable of doing and knows that he is responsible for what they do.

GuchiGuh
26th May 2007, 01:28
woah! that's one massive piggy!

MultimediaMan
26th May 2007, 02:00
No, the thing that got me was the father and friend with high power rifles ready in case it charged the kid, but they allowed the animal to bleed for 3 hours, so that the kid could claim the kill with a pistol, which is hardly an adequate hunting tool.

This could also be viewed as a life-experience thing. My first successful elk hunt was a mixed bag; The easiest part was shooting the animal. Less pleasant was field dressing it. You killed it, you dress it. It's not all fun and games.

The same rule applied when dealing with a wounded animal: You shot it, now make sure you've killed it; make sure you stop it's suffering. Hunting is not putting an animal in front of a firing squad. It's your hunt; this animal's suffering is now laid firmly at your feet. Others should not step in to finish the animal unless they have to; it also might not be legal to.

I hate it when I don't get a clean kill; I'm mad at myself more than anything, because in my mind, I failed to carry out my obligation. I'm sure the young man on reflection feels this way too. It's one of those things you have to live with.

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 02:13
Sometimes a bad kill is just unavoidable. I can remember hitting a 200 lb. deer square with a .50 caliber plains rifle shooting a 500 grain sabot, making a hole the size of a medium fist. Knocked him 180 degrees around but the damned thing got up and ran over a quarter mile on nerves alone. He sure didn't have a drop of blood in him by the time he dropped.

Problem is that deer store glucose in their livers and dump it as soon as fight/flight fires up, meaning they can be dead on their feet and still run like hell until they run out of blood, glucose or both. How far? Depends on the deer and the hit.

I think to do a one shot kill on that particular deer I would have had to get a head shot, which is not a high percentage shot and best avoided, or use an artillery piece. Then again most of my friends and relatives think that .50 is an artillery piece :p

James_D
26th May 2007, 02:26
Hunting is about killing as humanely as possible. Let's put those three hours in perspective, shall we?

Three hours to kill an animal which weighs as much as a small horse, but built as nearly tough as a Cape Buffalo. The young man is to be commended for tracking and killing the wounded animal. Suffering is a terrible thing: if you are going hunting, rest assured you have already made the decision to kill a living thing: this is a morally acceptable thing. It is also accepted, but maybe not emphasized enough, that at that point you are morally obligated to kill as quickly as possible. No one likes to see any creature suffer. However, things do go wrong on occasion: this fact does not make you a savage or a monster. It DOES make you responsible for harvesting the animal as humanely as possible.

It is possible (and likely) that our intrepid hunter had no idea how big the animal he shot actually was until after he hit it the first time. But again, you are now commited to killing the animal. You cannot un-shoot it or take it to the vet at that point.

Leaving a wounded animal in the field is a careless and dangerous act; careless because the animal was left in a hopeless state to suffer for a possibly lengthy period of time (days, even weeks), and could have well posed a threat to any bystander (hunter or otherwise) which may have crossed it's path before it expired. Wild Hogs can be aggressive even unprovoked. Now put the animal in pain and see what it's disposition might be.

I personally don't think he should have been going after this thing with a handgun of any caliber; 8 shots merely illustrates how tough the animal likely was. If I were to have been carrying a my hunting rifle of choice for that type of animal, I would have felt considerably undergunned. However, this is not case of poor planning, this is an extraordinary case of perseverance.

Case in point: I normally use a .358 Winchester for Boar with a heavy jacketed (275 Grain) softnose bullet. This would not have been enough for that Boar, barring an ideal shot. I had known ahead of time I was going after a 1000+ lb hog, I would have brought a .375 Ultramag or a .416 Ultramag (I don't even have a .416, but I know my dad has that particular chambering reamer in stock, and I think he also has a .416 barrel blank sitting in the barrel rack...).

The .50 S&W magnum is a powerful cartridge, but the sectional density (Mass divided by Diameter, squared) of the the bullet cannot compare to a rifle in terms of penetrating power. It's more than enough for a thin-skinned deer or small to "large" sized hog (~350Lbs). 8 Rounds expended was a case of not having enough gun. But who knew? Even the "high powered rifles" the article mentions may not have been sufficient for an animal of this size. Most of the time, they use Carbine-class rounds (.444 Marlin, .45-70) which also suffer from the same sectional density problems that the .50 S&W does.

I would be willing to bet dollars to dimes this young man will never commit a violent crime, at any time in his life. Why? This young man knows there is no reset button in real life. He knows what his weapons are capable of doing and knows that he is responsible for what they do.

First of all that is indeed a big Boar, though I wouldn't eat the meat... yuck. hogs taste like someone pissed on the meat. When I boar or Elg hunt, which i do lot in Hungary and Norway. I always used either my .308, or .318, and also I never shoot unless I am 99% certain that I can kill with one shot. I disrespect the way this hunt was done though, i know that US have a somewhat less restrictive way of hunting than EU. In most EU countries you need a hunting license, where you have to qualify on a theoretical part and on a shooting range. If you don't kill the animal in a proper way, there might be some repercautions. Like Boar hunting in Hungary, you have to see the whole animal, if you kill a sow which have cubs, then you are in big trouble. Or also letting an animal hurt, when you have the means to expedite its way to its gods, then that is also bad hunting practice. You might loose your right to hunt again, or get a big fine, and have to qualify for a new hunting license.

JD

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 02:38
Seeing that whole pig wouldn't do you any good as far as dropping it. Unless you hit something like that with a gun like my 45-70, almost literally a hand cannon, or a big bore rifle a chase is almost inevitable.

Hell, I remember a friend of mine hitting one twice in the forehead with a 300 Mag when it charged him and it still kept coming; the bullets ricocheted off its angled forehead without penetrating. He had to take 3 more shots from 8' up a tree :p

MultimediaMan
26th May 2007, 03:36
Again, these guys were out hunting boar, which are normally about the size of a medium to large deer (with really short legs).

This beastie was three times the size of a typical boar for that region. Hunting rifles typical of Alabama would have been inadequate for this type of animal.

Hunting in the Southeastern part of the US is typified by an open forest canopy with dense undergrowth and thickets; the forests are almost completely deciduous. This has been a wet year for the northern part of the region, too. Generally speaking, you cannot see for more than 50 yards or so unobstructed. What this means is that your guide might see something you do not and vice versa even if only standing a few feet apart.

Understanding the environment this boar was taken in is crucial to getting the context in which the story unfolds accurately conveyed.

No one comments about how "unfair" or "inhumane" the 3 hour battle with the Blue Marlin was while offshore fishing; it's fishing after all, right?. I fail to see anything different about hunting, as long as it is finished properly.

Wulfman
26th May 2007, 04:11
gun-issues aside, was that really a wild pig, or rather a descendant of house pigs? I heard the latter tend to be bigger.

mfg
wulfman

Brian Ellis
26th May 2007, 04:30
Almost certainly a feral pig. At one time, pigs were bred on the belief that the bigger the better, irrespective of the quality of the meat. Remember Blue Boy in State Fair? (THAT gives my age away!)? Dunno about States-side, but pig farming in Europe tends now towards smaller, leaner animals, because the public are more conscious about fat.

The problem is that they can interbreed with wild pigs and that can produce really Big AND Vicious brutes, with capital letters to show the offspring inherit the bad from both sides. Wild pigs were extinct in the UK until some guy imported a few that he let loose in the New Forest which traditionally was used to allow domestic pigs to forage for acorns in the autumn. The inevitable happened and some have had to be culled. The same is now happening elsewhere (http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/) in the UK.

Gurm
26th May 2007, 06:19
And I would never wish to be anywhere near to any 11 y-o kid toting a pistol!

This demonstrates the difference between our cultures, Brian. I learned to shoot well before I was 11, both with a bow, rifle, and later pistol. I was well supervised. However, it's actually rarer even here in the USA than popular media would have you believe. I grew around farmers, which explains it. But frankly, my license to carry is collecting dust at the moment, because I don't trust any lock around my kids. (Note that I worded that the way I did!)

Logan and Jacob will likely learn to shoot as well, with my in-laws. I know, we aren't expecting an armed uprising anytime soon, right? *ahem*

Brian Ellis
26th May 2007, 08:11
This demonstrates the difference between our cultures, Brian.

I hardly call the handling of lethal weapons at a tender age a culture; I would even consider it demonstrates a lack of culture.

Jammrock
26th May 2007, 08:17
I hardly call the handling of lethal weapons at a tender age a culture; I would even consider it demonstrates a lack of culture.


I'm curious, are you opposed to range shooting, or sport shooting that does not involve hunting?

Gurm
26th May 2007, 08:27
I'm curious, are you opposed to range shooting, or sport shooting that does not involve hunting?


He's opposed to America, and anything that differentiates it from his ideal culture. I'm not sure what his ideal culture IS, exactly... but it ain't us!

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 08:34
I learned to shoot when I was 6-ish and made my first kill on a rabbit soon after. Fishing started at ~4-5. First big game kill was a deer at age 10.

Brian Ellis
26th May 2007, 08:53
I'm curious, are you opposed to range shooting, or sport shooting that does not involve hunting?

Good question. I think I can answer only, "it depends". If the range shooting is like I did in the army, then the answer is definitely "yes", because the only purpose of that is to hone one's skills to kill, no matter what the arm. Sport shooting is less cut'n'dried for me. I'm thinking of the biathlon as I write this. This uses a bolt loading 0.22" rifle with a magazine holding 5 rounds. Obviously, in the wrong hands, such an arm could be used to kill, although it would be difficult to use it for this purpose. Clay pigeon shooting? Better than shooting real ones! As sport shooting is mainly a club or team activity, it would be a good idea, in any case, to have a strong room in the club premises for keeping the arms and the ammunition; there is no reason to have these at home.

As I said, I'm not opposed to shooting game, where it is necessary for the larder. I am opposed to shooting game just for the fun of it or where you can afford to buy food. I am not opposed to scientifically and cleanly culling animals where there are more than the habitat can support, preferably the weak and sick ones.

I know this answer is equivocal, but it's the best I can do at short notice.

Brian Ellis
26th May 2007, 08:54
He's opposed to America, and anything that differentiates it from his ideal culture. I'm not sure what his ideal culture IS, exactly... but it ain't us!

Bollocks.

Gurm
26th May 2007, 09:00
Bollocks.


Piffle. I can quote a dozen instances in the past few months where you take, whether or not you think you have good reasons, the diametric opposite position to that of most of us in the US. I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose!

James_D
26th May 2007, 10:15
I dont know, to be honest who is right in here, I just wonder if the European countries have a point when they set an age limit at 18 (most of the countries) for being able to own a weapon. They regard that you shouldn't be younger because you don't understand the implications that all of your actions can lead to. That is also why there is a limit of 18 years before being able to vote, and driving a car. If you think that people are old enough to shoot when they are 11 why not let them vote as well? Also a bit more strict gun control can be benefitial, I am not saying that you shouldnt be allowed to own a gun, eg Norway have a higher gun pr person concentration than US, but we also have a lower gun related crime statistics pr person compared to the US. First of all because there is a need for certification from the police that you have the permission to obtain weapons. Secondly Automatic weapons are not allowed unless being part of the military (most people are part of the home guard). So they have a AG3 at home (Modified Hessler and Koche G3). And very strict rules that ammo and the bolt have to be kept separate from the weapon.

Gurm:
I am also against many things that US have started or stands for, but also in favor of many. I still have to see any evidence for the weapons of mass destruction or the connections between Saddam and AQ, but I still think it was correct to get rid of the dictator. You will see that many European voices opposition to some cases that US is doing, but many of the same will also applaud for many of the things that US does. Just then you don't hear it in the US media, or also its easier to remember conflicting views. Like most European still are very great full for the way US intervened in Bosnia in the 90's. The EU was unable to act, and unless US action many more lives would have been lost.

Kind regards

JD

jms
26th May 2007, 10:26
No one should try killing a hog until they're big enough to use a proper (read: large caliber) weapon accurately. IMO pistol big game hunts are for experts only, and you're talking to a long time pistol hunter.

I pefer a Thompson/Center G2 Contender in 45-70 for hogs (below). One well placed shot = one kill.

That said I will take Erik on a hog hunt as soon as he can take his classes & get a license AND handle one of my big bored rifles; maybe the 300 Mag, .375 Mag or the .50 plains rifle. The license he can get at 12, but we'll see if he's man enough for the cannons by then.

http://digitalvideo.8m.net/tc4570.jpg


Well said.

TransformX
26th May 2007, 11:57
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/20022007/1120823/ALJR601_wa.jpg

Re Brian: I suppose you find the sikhs to be a barbaric cult, because carrying a knife (kirpan) is part of their tradition.. :rolleyes:

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 12:02
Almost certainly a feral pig.
>
The problem is that they can interbreed with wild pigs and that can produce really Big AND Vicious brutes, with capital letters to show the offspring inherit the bad from both sides.
Hernando de Soto brought old world hogs to the Americas in the 1500's and they interbred with domestic pigs. Now they're such an environmental problem hunting/culling is actively encouraged. Even with this their range is expanding north every year.

Yup....they're dangerous game, very dangerous. As such the typical deer rifle, even the venerated 30-06, is inadequate and weapons normally used for Grizzlys and medium African game are more in order. That or a .50 or .54 plains rifle with a BFB (Big F*****g Bullet).

Needless to say this limits participation as many are afraid to shoot those things :p

Those who hunt them with hounds often get them Kevlar jackets, and for good reason. The old saw is that you get one shot at a charging boar, then it's time to run.

Umfriend
26th May 2007, 12:04
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/20022007/1120823/ALJR601_wa.jpg

Re Brian: I suppose you find the sikhs to be a barbaric cult, because carrying a knife (kirpan) is part of their tradition.. :rolleyes:And they practise the use of the knife as to be able to kill?

Technoid
26th May 2007, 14:09
No one should try killing a hog until they're big enough to use a proper (read: large caliber) weapon accurately. IMO pistol big game hunts are for experts only, and you're talking to a long time pistol hunter.

I pefer a Thompson/Center G2 Contender in 45-70 for hogs (below). One well placed shot = one kill.

That said I will take Erik on a hog hunt as soon as he can take his classes & get a license AND handle one of my big bored rifles; maybe the 300 Mag, .375 Mag or the .50 plains rifle. The license he can get at 12, but we'll see if he's man enough for the cannons by then.

http://digitalvideo.8m.net/tc4570.jpg

If you'd change the handle for a stock, you could probably fool a lot of people that it was a rifle ;)

MultimediaMan
26th May 2007, 14:37
Actually, there are kits that will do just that.

As long as it has a 16" barrel and the stock makes the firearm 26" OAL or longer, it is perfectly legal as a rifle.

TransformX
26th May 2007, 14:40
And they practise the use of the knife as to be able to kill?

I know some people are too lazy for their own good, so here - from the deep buried secret, which apparently only selected few can reach: :tired:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

Sikhs often protest the characterisation of the Kirpan as a weapon. Traditionally, a Sikh should never use the Kirpan in anger or for a malicious attack. However, a Sikh may use it in self-defence or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of Gatka. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus that uses circular movements to effectively swing a kirpan.
Of course, this is a dance and the blade is used in order to radiate rays of tender loving care :rolleyes:.

Dr Mordrid
26th May 2007, 16:39
And Sikhs were never considered great warriors either :rolleyes:

O Sword, O Conqueror of continents,
O Vanquisher of the hosts of evil,
O Embellisher of the brave in the field of battle.
Thy Arms are unbreakable,
Thy Light refulgent,
Thy Glory and Splendor dazzle like the sun.
O Happiness of the holy,
O Crusher of evil intent,
O Subduer of sin, I seek Thy refuge.

Guru Gobind Singh (tenth and last of the Ten Gurus of Sikhism)

http://www.akalsangat.com/iw1.html


The Warrior

Every successful society has revered its warriors. While religious texts may talk of Ahinsa, or "turn the other cheek," in reality armies around the world march with the explicit blessings of priests and other religious leaders. However, the warrior is not always the saint-warrior discussed by Guru Gobind Singh. In the Orient, the exalted warrior was the samurai...a highly trained fighter willing to die at a moment's notice for his sworn master. In the West, the crusaders spilled blood to decimate the heathens. Armies have also marched with a desire to bring the right faith to the infidels. These are not the saint-warriors the Sikh Gurus refer to. The Sikh response to injustices is not confined to the approaches, "Turn the other cheek;" "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth;" or the often practiced, "An eye for a tooth, a head for an eye." It is the state of the warrior's mind that is of critical importance. Is the state that of a saint?

The Saint-Warrior

The saint-warrior looks upon the kirpan very much as he looks upon undergoing surgery for a tumor...it is the last resort and it is not because he hates the infected area that he wants removed. There can be no enimity towards the person the saint-warrior is to combat. The combat is not for a personal gain. The saint-soldier has love for entire humanity just as an ordinary man has love for all parts of his body. Just as no sane person will cut off his left arm so that the right one may become stronger, the saint-soldier will not lift his sword for the benefit of a king or a landlord, or even for his own benefit.

Brian Ellis
27th May 2007, 00:45
Piffle. I can quote a dozen instances in the past few months where you take, whether or not you think you have good reasons, the diametric opposite position to that of most of us in the US. I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose!

As this is a totally false accusation and is not even relevant to the thread, I have no intention of letting you be judge, jury and executioner for my moral convictions.

All I say is that you haven't a clue.

Gurm
27th May 2007, 05:58
As this is a totally false accusation and is not even relevant to the thread, I have no intention of letting you be judge, jury and executioner for my moral convictions.

All I say is that you haven't a clue.


And all I say is that you have yet to come to appreciate the depth of my ability to overstate a situation for my own ends. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Err... heh.

Umfriend
27th May 2007, 06:41
No need to get that agrevated. You introduced the Sikh&Kirpan into this thread as some sort of analogy that would make Brian see the right and wrong of his views. As you introduced this "analogy", it's up to you to show how it is relevant to the trhead. I, for one, am not yet convinced.

First, Brian never used the qualificaiton of "barbaric", it's your invention here and yes, you do tend to use hyperbole. Second, you have supplied a link where it mentions that some Sikhs choose to practice a martial art that involves a knife. I have not seen any reference to the actual training of children in using Gitka in general and the Kirpan in particular to kill, nor any such training causing prolonged suffering of a living creature before it finally is killed. Most martial arts, AFAIK, although they may teach you techniques to kill [more easily than untrained hands] focus on skill, sportmanship and even-handed combat. I doubt (but can not be sure) that Brian would find that bad let alone barbaric. If the debate was about some sort of cultural reason to carry a gun as opposed to train to use it, the analogy might be a bit closer to the mark.

I submit that shooting guns at animals can never be seen as even-handed combat, that taking three hours with a shotgun to kill an animal while better-suited weapons (and probably better shooters) were present at the time was cruel.

Elie
27th May 2007, 08:11
I would like to chime in, but why even bother killing a huge monster pig like that?
What is the point? let the animal live for study and research, how many of them live etc.

What are they going to do with it, feed an entire town? Is the meat even worth it at this size?

Cheers,
Elie

Wulfman
27th May 2007, 08:27
What are they going to do with it, feed an entire town? Is the meat even worth it at this size?

from experience with wild pigs here: it will definitely taste awful.

mfg
wulfman

TransformX
27th May 2007, 09:10
No need to get that agrevated. You introduced the Sikh&Kirpan into this thread as some sort of analogy that would make Brian see the right and wrong of his views. As you introduced this "analogy", it's up to you to show how it is relevant to the trhead. I, for one, am not yet convinced.

First, Brian never used the qualificaiton of "barbaric", it's your invention here and yes, you do tend to use hyperbole. Second, you have supplied a link where it mentions that some Sikhs choose to practice a martial art that involves a knife. I have not seen any reference to the actual training of children in using Gitka in general and the Kirpan in particular to kill, nor any such training causing prolonged suffering of a living creature before it finally is killed. Most martial arts, AFAIK, although they may teach you techniques to kill [more easily than untrained hands] focus on skill, sportmanship and even-handed combat. I doubt (but can not be sure) that Brian would find that bad let alone barbaric. If the debate was about some sort of cultural reason to carry a gun as opposed to train to use it, the analogy might be a bit closer to the mark.


I hardly call the handling of lethal weapons at a tender age a culture; I would even consider it demonstrates a lack of culture.

Unless you don't consider a Kirpan to be lethal, please read previous posts with a little more attention.

Umfriend
27th May 2007, 11:51
I'm not sure Brians' "handling" equates or compares particularly well to simply "carrying", mostly under your clothes as done by Sikhs.

DGhost
27th May 2007, 13:36
from experience with wild pigs here: it will definitely taste awful.

mfg
wulfman


from the friends I have that do hunt, i know that animals that do bolt are not as good tasting as the ones that are dropped in one shot... hence why they usually carry "high powered rifles" for hunting. while they usually also carry pistols, it's usually for defense while sleeping/camping, dealing with any crazies you find out in the mountains (yes, you do find them from time to time. better to be carried by 6 than tried by 12), or for last prayer defense against a charging animal. note - they don't go hunting with their pistols. it does not make sense. of course, these are people I respect. they do not go hunting just to see who can kill the largest animal. They do not go hunting for trophies. They go hunting for meat.

as far as the guys who killed the boar... i keep rereading that article and the pieces just don't add up. really, there is only one conclusion I can come up with: attention whores.

Elie
27th May 2007, 14:32
I agree Dghost, I think you hit the nail dead on, these guys want media attention, nothing more, which is sad really. Killing an animal this is totally uncalled for, if I was that boys father, he would get a spanking from me like no tomorrow!

Wulfman: I used to hunt wild boare myself in the middle east, there is nothing, I mean nothing more tendor and good tasting as the ones there. We don't hunt the over sized old pigs, only the mid sized.

Typically wild boars only eat vegitables grown in farms, so they are extremly healthy and clean, farmers often complain to us that their crops are being destroyed and eaten by these critters, and we come along and tag a one or two for ourselves :)

Since I've moved back to Canada, I never went on one hunting trip, I miss it, but for some reason, don't have the heart for it anymore, I guess I am all grown up now hehe.

Cheers,
Elie

schmosef
27th May 2007, 14:56
Speaking of the ME, in the grand scheme of things, isn't this (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25646&only&rss) a much worse form of child abuse?

Why are we wasting time even thinking about this kid when an entire generation in the ME is directly being "brought up to kill"?

Elie
27th May 2007, 17:07
Let's not generalize, it's not the entire ME that does this. That is only in Palestien, they lived too long in war and death, that they consider this normal.

I lived in Damascus for 11 years, and not once did I see these kind of plays ever done by kids, so it's not everywhere.

Just an FYI

Dr Mordrid
27th May 2007, 18:30
I would like to chime in, but why even bother killing a huge monster pig like that? What is the point? let the animal live for study and research, how many of them live etc.

What are they going to do with it, feed an entire town? Is the meat even worth it at this size?

Cheers,
Elie

Large boar are often criticized as tough and not fit for human consumption but that is flat out WRONG!!

Many restaurants with more stars than you can count consider boar as a high end table fare and the bigger, older boars well over 200 lbs are preferred when they "procure" them. One medallion of that meat costs more than the guns we use to shoot them with.

As with all game meats the key is preparation. The bad taste comes from the hogs blood, so the order of the day is to neutralize it with an acidic bath. The same process tenderizes.

Skin and de-bone or quarter it out then place the meat in a large ice chest with ice water plus 3/4 cup of vinegar and 20 oz of lemon juice. Soak large portions of meat for 2 to 3 days changing the water as needed. Keep the water ice cold and the meat completely covered, soaking it until it turns white.

NOTE: if the meat begins to darken or turn blue then there is too much vinegar. Change the ice water and reduce or eliminate the vinegar.

When finished season and smoke or cook the quarters in a pit.

Yummy :D

schmosef
27th May 2007, 23:01
Let's not generalize, it's not the entire ME that does this. That is only in Palestien, they lived too long in war and death, that they consider this normal.

I lived in Damascus for 11 years, and not once did I see these kind of plays ever done by kids, so it's not everywhere.

Just an FYI

I thought this thread was about generalizing? ;)

Those kinds of plays may not be everywhere in the ME but you can be sure that peaceful co-existence with Israel isn't on the school curriculum either.

All I'm saying is that there are children out there who we really should be worrying about (and doing something to help).

btw, your anecdote about wild boar in the ME fascinates me. I would have thought that between the Jews and the Muslims, all wild boar would have been eliminated.

As I understand it, it is illegal to raise pigs on the land of Israel. Farmer who do keep them raised on plank floors so that they never touch the ground.

TransformX
27th May 2007, 23:58
There are wild boars in the Golan heights as well as some other places in that general area. Some people do go out to hunt them on occasion.

schmosef
28th May 2007, 00:22
I guess there's still a lot of wild life (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1178708697094) in the area.

Umfriend
28th May 2007, 01:29
Yes Schmo, I would agree that those kids are better to worry about then the hunting boy.

Wulfman
28th May 2007, 01:31
Large boar are often criticized as tough and not fit for human consumption but that is flat out WRONG!!

Many restaurants with more stars than you can count consider boar as a high end table fare and the bigger, older boars well over 200 lbs

well, but between 200 ibs (which I consider perfectly fine for consumption, although I'd go for something smaller if I have the choice) and the 1000 pound reported above is a rather large difference. doesn't seem to be insignificant.

mfg
wulfman

DGhost
28th May 2007, 09:06
it took them a backhoe to remove the dead boar and he plans on making sausages. i seriously doubt that he had quality cooking in mind when he shot it.

Mehen
28th May 2007, 14:20
I've eaten wild boar before - it was EXCELLENT.

Dr Mordrid
28th May 2007, 19:15
I've eaten boar that were over 600 lbs and it was great.

schmosef
30th May 2007, 10:33
my head is spinning with the implications: Man Shoots Wendy's Manager Over Chili Sauce (http://www.wmur.com/news/13410123/detail.html)

James_D
30th May 2007, 10:39
That reminds me of what I thought was a good movie.. Falling Down with Michael Douglas.

Jessterw
30th May 2007, 11:22
Reminds me of the Mexicans that got in a gun fight over who was - I kid you not - standing in line first at a taco stand in Tulsa.

Gurm
30th May 2007, 12:53
Reminds me of the Mexicans that got in a gun fight over who was - I kid you not - standing in line first at a taco stand in Tulsa.


That reminds me of the security guard that called the police over... wait, you guys have heard this one, right?

Gurm
30th May 2007, 12:58
On my way home from the second job I've taken for the extra holiday ca$h I need, I stopped at Taco Bell for a quick bite to eat. In my billfold is a $50 bill and a $2 bill. That is all of the cash I have on my person. I figure that with a $2 bill, I can get something to eat and not have to worry about people getting upset at me.

ME: ``Hi, I'd like one seven layer burrito please, to go.''
IT: ``Is that it?''
ME: ``Yep.''
IT: ``That'll be $1.04, eat here?''
ME: ``No, it's to go.'' [I hate effort duplication.]

At his point I open my billfold and hand him the $2 bill. He looks at it kind of funny and

IT: ``Uh, hang on a sec, I'll be right back.''

He goes to talk to his manager, who is still within earshot. The following conversation occurs between the two of them.

IT: ``Hey, you ever see a $2 bill?''
MG: ``No. A what?''
IT: ``A $2 bill. This guy just gave it to me.''
MG: ``Ask for something else, there's no such thing as a $2 bill.'' [my emp]
IT: ``Yeah, thought so.''

He comes back to me and says

IT: ``We don't take these. Do you have anything else?''
ME: ``Just this fifty. You don't take $2 bills? Why?''
IT: ``I don't know.''
ME: ``See here where it says legal tender?''
IT: ``Yeah.''
ME: ``So, shouldn't you take it?''
IT: ``Well, hang on a sec.''

He goes back to his manager who is watching me like I'm going to shoplift, and

IT: ``He says I have to take it.''
MG: ``Doesn't he have anything else?''
IT: ``Yeah, a fifty. I'll get it and you can open the safe and get change.''
MG: ``I'm not opening the safe with him in here.'' [my emp]
IT: ``What should I do?''
MG: ``Tell him to come back later when he has real money.''
IT: ``I can't tell him that, you tell him.''
MG: ``Just tell him.''
IT: ``No way, this is weird, I'm going in back.''


The manager approaches me and says

MG: ``Sorry, we don't take big bills this time of night.'' [it was 8pm and this particular Taco Bell is in a well lighted indoor mall with 100 other stores.]
ME: ``Well, here's a two.''
MG: ``We don't take those either.''
ME: ``Why not?''
MG: ``I think you know why.''
ME: ``No really, tell me, why?''
MG: ``Please leave before I call mall security.''
ME: ``Excuse me?''
MG: ``Please leave before I call mall security.''
ME: ``What for?''
MG: ``Please, sir.''
ME: ``Uh, go ahead, call them.''
MG: ``Would you please just leave?''
ME: ``No.''
MG: ``Fine, have it your way then.''
ME: ``No, that's Burger King, isn't it?''

At this point he backs away from me and calls mall security on the phone around the corner. I have two people staring at me from the dining area, and I begin laughing out loud, just for effect. A few minutes later this 45 year oldish guy comes in and says [at the other end of counter, in a whisper]

SG: ``Yeah, Mike, what's up?''
MG: ``This guy is trying to give me some [pause] funny money.''
SG: ``Really? What?''
MG: ``Get this, a two dollar bill.''
SG: ``Why would a guy fake a $2 bill?'' [incredulous]
MG: ``I don't know? He's kinda weird. Says the only other thing he has is a fifty.''
SG: ``So, the fifty's fake?''
MG: ``No, the $2 is.''
SG: ``Why would he fake a $2 bill?''
MG: ``I don't know. Can you talk to him, and get him out of here?''
SG: ``Yeah...''


Security guard walks over to me and says

SG: ``Mike here tells me you have some fake bills you're trying to use.''
ME: ``Uh, no.''
SG: ``Lemme see 'em.''
ME: ``Why?''
SG: ``Do you want me to get the cops in here?''

At this point I was ready to say, ``SURE, PLEASE,'' but I wanted to eat, so I said

ME: ``I'm just trying to buy a burrito and pay for it with this $2 bill.''

I put the bill up near his face, and he flinches like I was taking a swing at him. He takes the bill, turns it over a few times in his hands, and says

SG: ``Mike, what's wrong with this bill?''
MG: ``It's fake.''
SG: ``It doesn't look fake to me.''
MG: ``But it's a $2 bill.''
SG: ``Yeah?''
MG: ``Well, there's no such thing, is there?''

The security guard and I both looked at him like he was an idiot, and it dawned on the guy that he had no clue.

My burrito was free and he threw in a small drink and those cinnamon things, too. Makes me want to get a whole stack of $2 bills just to see what happens when I try to buy stuff. If I got the right group of people, I could probably end up in jail. At least I'd get free food.

Gurm
30th May 2007, 12:58
That story was actually a post from Captain Sarcastic (and who knows if his stories are true or not), but according to Snopes, apparently a guy really WAS arrested for paying for his Best Buy purchase with $2 bills. Wow.

KRSESQ
1st June 2007, 17:37
So the story unravels: the pig was not feral; it was farm-raised and pen-hunted (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/06/01/0601monsterpig.html).

Doesn't say how big the pen was. But even if it was several acres or more, it's hardly sporting.

Not exactly "hunting" in my book.

Kevin

Jessterw
1st June 2007, 19:25
I'm sure someone will still find a way to justify it. Of course, there's very little 'real' hunting happening anymore. Reminds me of deer hunters who put out feeders and then brag about the stag they hunted down.

Please.

Wulfman
2nd June 2007, 02:35
So the story unravels: the pig was not feral; it was farm-raised and pen-hunted (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/06/01/0601monsterpig.html).

Doesn't say how big the pen was. But even if it was several acres or more, it's hardly sporting.

Not exactly "hunting" in my book.

Kevin
I'm impressed, apparently the friend of mine (hunter) whom I asked about the pig had a very good eye. :)


gun-issues aside, was that really a wild pig, or rather a descendant of house pigs? I heard the latter tend to be bigger.

mfg
wulfman

Jessterw
2nd June 2007, 09:17
I love this comment:


"We were told that it was a feral hog," Mike Stone said, "and we hunted it on the pretense that it was a feral hog."
Yeah, inside a pen. Bet he catches his trout at a fish farm too. :rolleyes:

jms
3rd June 2007, 01:28
Pathetic

James_D
3rd June 2007, 13:08
And if it was a farm pig then I think using 3 hours to kill it is even worse... It was someones pet.....


JD

DGhost
3rd June 2007, 23:20
the whole hunting preserve part was truely what turned my stomach...

Jessterw
5th June 2007, 08:40
Two more links on the matter. The first is an 'open letter' from the boy's father:

http://monsterpig.com/

The second is an "expose" on photographs that once appeared on the site above (and the one that has been shown everywhere else):

http://66.226.75.96/pig/

KRSESQ
5th June 2007, 09:25
God forgive me, but daddy and junior better hit the treadmill or someone is likely to mistake them for hogzillas.

(One way, window seat please.)

Kevin