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  • Euro university reform?



    PARIS, France (AP) -- German universities are trying to charge tuition. Paris schools are considering selection instead of open admission. Dutch colleges are pushing students to finish faster. Greece wants to lift a ban on private universities.

    Change is rattling Europe's temples of learning.

    Resistance remains fierce, driven by fears of the "Americanization" -- or commercialization -- of higher education.

    But economic realities are overpowering those who maintain that universities should impart universal knowledge, not pave the way to a job. Too many European graduates are getting welfare checks instead of paychecks.

    Europe's universities don't provide the skills and research needed to help the continent prosper and compete with rapidly growing economies in Asia and elsewhere, according to international rankings, school presidents, students and European Union officials.

    Germany, France and Italy spend just 1.1 percent of gross domestic product on higher education, nearly all of that from state funds, says the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The U.S. spends 2.6 percent -- with private endowments funding the majority.

    Still, that may not be enough. The OECD says China and India are adapting faster than the United States and the EU and are producing more high-skilled workers for 21st century needs.

    Lecture halls at Europe's oldest university, the University of Bologna in Italy, are crumbling. French university libraries are outdated, poorly accessible and increasingly ignored.


    Students receive little guidance. European college dropout rates average 40 percent. One survey found that more than a third of adults in the EU cannot perform basic computer tasks such as using a mouse to access an Internet site or working with a word-processing program.

    "Many go to university because they think it's prestigious. But most of us know that we may still be working at the sandwich shop" after graduation, Fatima Bouziane, a sociology student at the University of Saint-Denis, said as she headed to a part-time cafe job in a bleak neighborhood north of Paris.

    The head of France's main employers union, Laurence Parisot, says French universities are "the shame of our nation."

    Their dire state is becoming a campaign issue in next spring's election. Presidential hopeful Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a Socialist, says the university system should be "dynamited." On the right, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy is calling for a 50 percent increase in funding for higher education over five years.

    "It's a miracle that France is still the world's fifth largest (economic) power, closely tailed by China, considering its weak investment in higher education. Can this continue?" the president of the Sorbonne, Jean-Robert Pitte, wrote in a book this year called "Youth -- They're Lying to You!"

    The American sweep of this year's science and economics Nobel prizes is likely to sharpen the debate.

    Most European universities are public, and most charge no tuition, just small fees. Parisian universities, for example, charge $125 to $250 a year, and that is covered for low-income students with one-time student stipends.

    Critics contend the system leaves education short of funds.


    But opponents of market-oriented reforms being proposed across Europe worry that students will become commodities for profit-centered universities and fear that disciplines with limited market value will die out.

    French researchers staged nationwide protests against perceived interference in educational affairs by businesses interests and the government. In Greece, government proposals for creation of private universities provoked student protests. In Germany, protesters blocked highways over several German state governments' plans to introduce university tuition fees.
    >
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Hrm. I can see the benefits to such reform for the universities and other educational institutions, but I can see the detractions as well based on our system here. Not sure how it is in the rest of the country now, but compared to when I was in uni back in '97, the students at the uni here (Oklahoma State) are getting arse raped even when they have scholarships.
    “And, remember: there's no 'I' in 'irony'” ~ Merlin Mann

    Comment


    • #3
      The main reason for overreaching tuitions IMO are overpaid staff (many $500k uni presidents) and getting into things they have no business being in.

      Ex1: student "health clubs" on campus that would put an NFL teams facilities to shame.



      The fitness center, modeled after private-sector health clubs, features state-of-the-art Nautilus circuit machines, treadmills, elliptical cross trainers, recumbent bikes and lifecycles, rowing machines, and stairsteppers. The spacious 9,000-square-foot-area also offers numerous free weights.

      A six-lane, 25-yard, competition-sized pool is one of the highlights of the Wellness Center. With air temperature remaining a constant 84 degrees and water temperature fixed at 82 degrees, the pool is an ideal environment for aerobic exercise year-round.
      Ex2: one uni president here was put up in a $5 million mansion, which was built on uni property.

      This wasn't the U of M, Michigan State or some other "A" school but Eastern Michigan; fundamentally a "B" commuter/teaching college



      There was a double-digit tuition hike for students at Eastern Michigan University this year, which was one of the stiffest in the state. Classroom buildings need renovations and school officials say there’s not enough money. Yet, despite these claims, the school has managed to find money for the college president and his wife to be living in a brand new mansion.

      This mansion is provided by the regents at one of Michigan’s tax-supported universities free to its well-paid president, while they raise tuition and defer other projects that would benefit students.

      The presidential palace is 10,200 splendid square feet, not counting the full, unfinished basement. It sits behind a tall fence that surrounds the entire estate, which occupies 25% more space than a whole city block. The mansion has 4 bedrooms, 8 bathrooms or half baths, and 2 full kitchens. There is custom granite, expensive flooring, elegant wall and window treatments, exquisite custom cabinetry throughout, all that you would expect for 5 or 6 million dollars.
      Trust me; this kind of crap is going on everywhere, and it's one part of our system the Europeans should avoid at all costs.
      Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 20 November 2006, 18:37.
      Dr. Mordrid
      ----------------------------
      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

      Comment


      • #4
        Not sure how much the higher uni officials make here, but I know a lot of the tuition costs are driven by OSU making sweeping land acquisitions, large investments into property development with the city and other organizations, as well as substantial construction and renovation projects within the campus itself. Then there's all the money spent on one of the worst football teams I know of.
        “And, remember: there's no 'I' in 'irony'” ~ Merlin Mann

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
          The main reason for overreaching tuitions IMO are overpaid staff (many $500k uni presidents) and getting into things they have no business being in.

          Ex1: student "health clubs" on campus that would put an NFL teams facilities to shame.





          Ex2: one uni president here was put up in a $5 million mansion, which was built on uni property.

          This wasn't the U of M, Michigan State or some other "A" school but Eastern Michigan; fundamentally a "B" commuter/teaching college





          Trust me; this kind of crap is going on everywhere, and it's one part of our system the Europeans should avoid at all costs.

          You mean universities are like any other American corporation?

          I get so seriously angry when anyone argues against the minimum wage being increased, when I see the few with the real money getting paid THOUSANDS of times what the poor minimum wage worker has to deal with in his miserable, Dickensian nightmare of a life. Good luck sending your kids to college if you aren't one of the chosen few.. the percentage of people who are full of false hopes for a lottery win in order to pay their medical bills and kid's tuition would surprise you. Too bad we cannot have good sense anymore.. universities should charge tuition, but it should be reasonable. For everyone. Athletic scholarships should be illegal, unless the return from them is 200% offset by ticket sales.. but tickets should not cost $100 apiece!!

          Blind lassaiz-faire capitalism is an absolutely horrible idea in a society with values as screwed up as ours have become, and pure socialism is a horrible idea when the government is run by idiots as well. Guess what false ideal we all have to thank for people having no common sense and empty materialistic values? Yup.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KvHagedorn
            Guess what false ideal we all have to thank for people having no common sense and empty materialistic values? Yup.
            Small minded texan biggots?
            Juu nin to iro


            English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

            Comment


            • #7
              How about people who slander others because they have no real frame of reference to know what those people are talking about?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                How about people who slander others because they have no real frame of reference to know what those people are talking about?
                Like small minded texan biggots?

                Edit:
                Like small minded texan biggots, who at most have spent a minimal amount of time in Detroit and never been anywhere else before running back home to texas?
                Last edited by Sasq; 20 November 2006, 21:26.
                Juu nin to iro


                English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No, people from Australia who did not witness the outcome of the OJ trial and see an entire ethnic group stand up and cheer because one of their own favorite sports heroes got away with murdering two whiteys. Someone who had not worked at a restaurant next to a 60% black high school where white students were assaulted on such a regular basis that the police had to be called every other day. Someone who had not seen footage of the LA riots, where a black person pulled a white person out of a delivery truck and crushed his skull with a cinder block, only to be let off by a jury that was bullied by the large, loud, indignantly hateful black woman who had been elected foreman. Someone who did not witness the mayor of the nation's capital on tape smoking crack with a hooker, and who was then reelected by his "people" because "whitey framed him." Someone who was not subjected to liberal feminist teachers in elementary school who allowed large black girls who had been held back two grades to beat the crap out of small white boys who had been taught not to hit girls because his parents were civilized. Someone who did not have to live through all this and then listen to smug liberals with no ****ing clue try to drag his name all through the mud because they never had to deal with the same sort of thing, or even close.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Which I guess would be different than seeing your best friend get the shit beat out of him by a cop simply because he was black, all while the cop's partner held you back and reminded you that you were lucky to be white... And all because you accidently ran a red light and weren't quick enough on finding your insurance card.

                    Yeah poor us white folk.

                    Edit: Let's be clear, I hate that some of the crap you mentioned went down, and it irks me when blacks as a group pull some of the crap they do. But it has nothing to do with them being black and everything to do with their perceived social and economic status. There's also an underlying level of group hatred and an inferiority complex that comes to the surface whenever they are pitted against their former masters. This isn't an abnormal thing, as is evidenced by the feelings various white cultures have felt towards other white cultures, e.g. Americans or the Irish to the British not so long ago. As far as group memory goes, blacks have plenty of reason to still have these feelings.

                    Countless other races or groups have been in the same position and reacted in similar fashions. Hell, us "whites" have been pulling all kinds of stunts since we came out of our caves.
                    Last edited by Jessterw; 20 November 2006, 22:28.
                    “And, remember: there's no 'I' in 'irony'” ~ Merlin Mann

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      No, people from Australia who did not witness the outcome of the OJ trial and see an entire ethnic group stand up and cheer because one of their own favorite sports heroes got away with murdering two whiteys.
                      And white rich guys that are guilty never get off scot free?
                      Would you feel the same disgust if some white guy killed a mexican for knocking his sister up the duff? - don't answer that one KvH, we already all know the real answer.

                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      Someone who had not worked at a restaurant next to a 60% black high school where white students were assaulted on such a regular basis that the police had to be called every other day.
                      Someone who has not worked in remote locations of Australia where when you run over an idigenous person, you can not stop and render assistance because his friends will kill you.

                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      Someone who had not seen footage of the LA riots, where a black person pulled a white person out of a delivery truck and crushed his skull with a cinder block, only to be let off by a jury that was bullied by the large, loud, indignantly hateful black woman who had been elected foreman.
                      I watched on the TV too, neither of us were there. So stop yanking the chains there, lets not forget some of the things whites have done that are similar. in your state no less...
                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      Someone who did not witness the mayor of the nation's capital on tape smoking crack with a hooker, and who was then reelected by his "people" because "whitey framed him."
                      or he could just have been doing a decent job, and no body gave a flying f**k what he does in his spare time, or where he dips his wick
                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      Someone who was not subjected to liberal feminist teachers in elementary school who allowed large black girls who had been held back two grades to beat the crap out of small white boys who had been taught not to hit girls because his parents were civilized.
                      Well your parents should have had the backbone to complain to the school.
                      Originally posted by KvHagedorn
                      Someone who did not have to live through all this and then listen to smug liberals with no ****ing clue try to drag his name all through the mud because they never had to deal with the same sort of thing, or even close.
                      oh stop the bleeding heart everybody hates me think I'll go eat worms cruft.
                      we all have lots of stuff to live through, your not the only one with a hard life.
                      The rest of us though tend to cope with it, and don't bother to bleet about the world owing us something, we just get on with it.
                      nothing to do with being a bleeding heart liberal, and everything to do with accepting the sh*t life throws at us, and getting on with it.
                      Juu nin to iro


                      English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I didn't even mention how my best friend at that elementary school was black, and how disgusted I was when we moved away from there and heard the real estate agent ask my mother if there were any blacks in the neighborhood (him living 3 doors down,) wanting him out of the house and not wanting his kid to even pet my cat.

                        Aside from that, and historical footage, I've not witnessed true race hatred going in any direction other than black against white. Your mileage may vary. But Dan formed an opinion about me because long ago he mentioned that crime was high in Washington DC and nothing was done about it, with a jab at Americans not keeping their own house in order, and I explained to him that Washington DC was about 90% black, which would explain the situation to any American, but then I forgot he was not an American.

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                        • #13
                          No KvH, I formed an opinion about you, when you told me that interracial marriages are an abomination.
                          Juu nin to iro


                          English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Actually, it's a society telling us that there will be no problems with such things and that people are all identical and so it doesn't matter that's the abomination.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Err what? When has our society ever said interracial relationships were problem free? Most everyone I know from any race would rate that as the number one reason why they have avoided them or were prepared for the way society views such relationships.

                              No one's saying we're all identical and that interracial or intercultural relationships are problem free. They are saying that those relationships can be successful and that we as humans can work towards respecting our differences and using that respect to peacefully coexist and intermingle.

                              True, much of that isn't going to happen anytime soon, but that doesn't mean people can't try.
                              “And, remember: there's no 'I' in 'irony'” ~ Merlin Mann

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