Low cost windmill power.

[Jammrock]

I saw a quick blurb about this on TV somewhere, so I looked it up:

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream/

It's basically a $10000 windmill that can generate 20%-90% of the average households energy needs. And on days/times where you generate more power than you use you sell back the power to the grid (federal law mandates this). They claim that the average household can pay it off in 7-12 years, depending on rebates, tax credits and how much energy you sell back. It's pretty interesting.

The biggest downfall, besides the steep investment, is the tower size. The windmill has to be 20' (6 m) higher that than everything else within a 500 ft (~150 m) radius.

It would interesting if you had enough land to put two up and generate 100% of your power and always be selling to the grid. You could probably pay off the investment pretty quick since the grid is always hungry. In theory.

Now we just need efficient solar cells and we're set.

Jammrock

[Greebe]

It's relatively cheap dispite the space requirement restrictions. On the other hand you may be forced to contend with companies like FPL (Florida Power and Light) who require a minimum of a 1 million dollar insurance policy to connect to their grid. This puts it out of economic reach so nobody does.

On the other hand FPL operates one of the most extensive wind power generating grids in the country, something like 13 states they have them.

In other places in Florida where FPL isn't there are a few sprinklings of various generating setups some of which produce 100% power for the home and sell off the excess to the grid. I believe there is one such home down in Miami Dade county. Of course the people could easily afford the electric from the grid as their home is a multi million dollar estate, but at least it's being done.

For additional info checkout Forcefield

[Brian Ellis]

Estimated Energy Production: 400 KWh per month at 12 MPH (5.4 m/s)

There are very few inhabited places in the world which have an average wind speed of 5.4 m/s. I have in front of me a map of W. European wind velocities measured at 50 m (164') altitude above the ground level and the only places where the average is as high or higher are:
N. Scotland
N & W Ireland
NW tip of Denmark (Jutland)
Bouches du Rhône (Mistral)
Languedoc (Tramontane)
Small area of high Pyrenees

Taking typical meteo stations near places like Frankfurt, London, Orleans, the wind blows >5 m/s for only ~20% of the time. In S. Europe, it is worse; Milan, for example, it exceeds 5 m/s for only 3% of the time. Even Madrid, which is on a high plateau, the figure is ~15%.

Where I live, it is worse: we have almost no prevailing winds for 9 months of the year and an hour or two of katabatic winds, typically averaging 3 m/s with occasional gusts of up to 8 m/s, on summer afternoons. Just for laughs, here is what I have on my weather station at this moment:
Current wind speed/direction 0.0 m/s - 68 ° - ESE
Average wind speed 0.0 m/s
Beaufort number 0
Today's max. gust/time/direction 1.4 m/s - 10:07 - ESE
Yesterday's max. gust 3.5 m/s S - 18:16

However, I did have:
Max wind gust 23.7 m/s 9.4.2006 (April, not September!)
Please tell me how it is going to withstand many gusts like that! Full-scale wind turbines feather their blades at >~20 m/s to avoid damage and they are designed for max output at 15-16 m/s, not 5.4 m/s.

Please allow me to be sceptical about things like this; there are many companies that are willing to take the money from clients who would later be dissatisfied with the results.

[Dr Mordrid]

Which is why the alternative energy tax windfalls of the 70's here were such boondoggles. Billions spent with little ROI.

[Fluff]

That ground source heat pump much better idea i think.

http://www.heatpumps.co.uk/whatis.htm

[Fat Tone]

I think there is a strong chance I'll be investing in one of these domestic Combined Heat and Power plants when they are available sometime next year (assuming my current boiler lasts that long!)

http://www.whispergen.com/index.cfm

[Dr Mordrid]

Heat pumps have been available in Michigan for ages and work quite well. You can even finance them at low rates through the local power company. I believe the heat/power units are coming soon.

[Greebe]

Heat pumps are nothing more than an Air Conditioner that works in reverse. My father was one of the originators of the devices and a huge proponet for them back in the '60's-'70's.

Using ground water as the source be it heating or cooling greatly improves their effeciency.

There was once upon a time one company based out of NH named Suntime who had a great hot water heating system. Closed loop and completely passive, flushed with nitrogen then completely evacuated and then pressurized with R-12 a couple of 9'x5' panels either mounted on an exterior wall or on the roof would produce enough hot water to supply the aveage family of 4 without a problem, even on the dark overcast days in winter.
Due to the drop in fuel oil and crude in the late 80's they finally closed up shop. A typical system cost was ~$3500 installed.

I can attest that an open, unpressurize panel resting vertical in the shade facing due north would get hot enough to burn you (pipe connection) shortly after sunrise (~8:30am).

Here in SUNNY Florida solar panels work great and a single Suntime panel heating your water would completely eliminate hot water costs. FYI hot water heaters are typically the biggest consumer of power.

[Brian Ellis]

Heat pumps really require the cold end to be in flowing surface or ground water, well below the coldest weather ice level. They would also work in a deep static lake. Those that work with a maze of pipes over a large area of land, below frost level, but without running water, are too expensive to install and maintain.

The Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne heat the whole campus by two enormous heat pumps with the cold end 100 m down on the bottom of Lac Léman (Lake of Geneva).

This country is the world champion of solar water heating with 96% of the habitations using it. I have 2 m2 of panel and it provides us with scalding water about 330 days/year. It is estimated to reduce the electricity generating capacity by ~25% (and consequently fossil fuel CO2 emissions). OTOH, there is little PV generation here because of government bureaucracy.

[Gurm]

Heat pumps are nothing more than an Air Conditioner that works in reverse. My father was one of the originators of the devices and a huge proponet for them back in the '60's-'70's.

Using ground water as the source be it heating or cooling greatly improves their effeciency.

There was once upon a time one company based out of NH named Suntime who had a great hot water heating system. Closed loop and completely passive, flushed with nitrogen then completely evacuated and then pressurized with R-12 a couple of 9'x5' panels either mounted on an exterior wall or on the roof would produce enough hot water to supply the aveage family of 4 without a problem, even on the dark overcast days in winter.
Due to the drop in fuel oil and crude in the late 80's they finally closed up shop. A typical system cost was ~$3500 installed.

I can attest that an open, unpressurize panel resting vertical in the shade facing due north would get hot enough to burn you (pipe connection) shortly after sunrise (~8:30am).

Here in SUNNY Florida solar panels work great and a single Suntime panel heating your water would completely eliminate hot water costs. FYI hot water heaters are typically the biggest consumer of power.

My parents run a solar rig in FL, it heats their hot water AND their pool. Only time they have to run the "furnace" (which is electric) is on the coldest days in February, or sometimes they turn on the gas heater for the hot tub.

[Greebe]

My parents run a solar rig in FL, it heats their hot water AND their pool. Only time they have to run the "furnace" (which is electric) is on the coldest days in February, or sometimes they turn on the gas heater for the hot tub.

hehe I bet, that is if Feb. gets cold that year

Is their system a water glycol pump type (very common around these parts)?

Flipside to running heat is alot of time you may have to turn the heat on at night only to have the AC on the very same day (and yes our AC is running atm tho it's nice out, the humidity this time of day is killer)

Cold Tap water is typically 80ish

We had a cold snap a week ago, night time lows got to a nipple piercing 60f and the locals were wearing clothes we'd have worn up north only when it's @freezing (or less). Talk about abunch of whiners. We'd look at them like they're nuts commenting about how nice it is (as opposed to 90+ 8months of the year) and they'd fire back, well you aren't acclimated! (Oh boo hoo) Oh we're accustomed to the temps all right, but we can also handle cold.

Funny is when the young hoodlum ghetto gangbanger types where coats with their hoods up when it's in the 80's (even at night when it's that hot) - idiots!

Few years back commented to a neighbor who relocated (who in Florida hasn't here back in the early '80's told him I could handle ANYTHING cold this state could throw at us. They'd fire back with 'Oh it gets cold here!' (shock!) back 11-12 years ago it was in the 20's for a week (4 days it did hurt the citrus crops but that's not what I'd call cold. Not when you've worked outdoors in temps of -85f for hours at end and still have your winter apparel, thermals, wool sweaters, Down coats etc (tho where they are packed away I have no clue