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  • Medical ethics

    I have a friend, a few years older than myself, who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's six years ago. He has now reached the stage where moments of lucidity are few and far between, he wanders but is unstable on his feet, he is incontinent, he cannot dress or feed himself. IOW, his quality of life is poor.

    His wife, over 80 now, has been looking after him and she is exhausted with the need of 24/7 attention. Unfortunately, she is proud and considers that "in sickness and in health" means literally that. They are not rich and cannot afford paid professional care. The NHS and social security services where they live (Yorkshire, England) are very limited and offer little help. Even if she would let him go, there is no room in any local nursing home. There is a day care centre, but they can accept him for only one day per week. I feel she is now at the end of her tether.

    The prognosis for my friend is probably inevitable death from nervous degeneration, as he has no other life-threatening condition, at least for the moment. The docs won't say how long he has, anything between 1 and 5 years. But they insist on his taking medication which slows down the progression of his degeneration. My question: is such treatment cruel? Why don't they let nature just takes its course and let him go as soon as possible, rather than slowing down the inevitable? Although I'm not pro-active euthanasia, neither am I pro-therapeutic fierceness which keeps patients alive for as long as possible at whatever cost and whatever loss of dignity. I am pro-therapy that conserves, as much as possible, dignity of life and the relief of pain (not that this applies in this case), even if it can accelerate the inevitable outcome of death by a little.

    What are your thoughts?
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

  • #2
    I _am_ pro-euthanasia, in the event that it's explicitly known what the wishes of the sufferer are. I don't want to be kept alive as a vegetable of any kind. I've known people with advanced alzheimer's who, in their rare moments of lucidity, were shocked and horrified that they were still alive and suffering thusly.

    BUT, given that the current social trend is AWAY from assisted suicide... I am in complete agreement with you. Why slow, at tremendous cost and increased suffering, the progression of a disease once it has already done the worst of its damage? If they had started him on the treatments when the first symptoms appeared, thus giving him several years of slow loss and therefore some enjoyment of life, then great. But to prolong things now, when he can't control his bowels and is never lucid? That's just cruel to everyone involved.
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    • #3
      Personally, I am strongly against suicide but to artificially prolong one's suffering like this is horrible. This is cruel. He's not himself anymore or anybody for that matter.

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      • #4
        alright Kavorkians,
        how would you feel if you said "my loved one is beyond hope, let him/her pass" and find out shortly after there was a treatment to adjust the condition?
        Better to let one think you are a fool, than speak and prove it


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        • #5
          As much as it burdens her to take care of her husband, I doubt she'd want her husband to be put to death. From Brian's post, she seems to still love her husband very much and I doubt she's ready to just let him go not to mention that it would probably be harder to let him die then to keep on taking care of him.
          Titanium is the new bling!
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dilitante1
            alright Kavorkians,
            how would you feel if you said "my loved one is beyond hope, let him/her pass" and find out shortly after there was a treatment to adjust the condition?
            So how does it feel to keep someone alive at all cost, suffering to the dying and the loved ones who need to see the anguish, only to find out after FIVE years it was hopeless all along?
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Gurm
              BUT, given that the current social trend is AWAY from assisted suicide...
              Well, Belgium allows for euthanasia in its law (person has to have expressed this wish before). Currently, they are working on making the law more applicable towards case such as described by Brian.

              IMO, prolonging such suffering is cruel; all efforts should be made to make life as comfortable as possible (granted, for alzheimer, there are no options), not at prolonging it.


              Jörg
              pixar
              Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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              • #8
                The question is, who gets to decide when someone lives or dies and what right does that person have to make that decision?
                Titanium is the new bling!
                (you heard from me first!)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by ZokesPro
                  The question is, who gets to decide when someone lives or dies and what right does that person have to make that decision?
                  ...


                  Diplomacy, it's a way of saying “nice doggie”, until you find a rock!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ZokesPro
                    The question is, who gets to decide when someone lives or dies and what right does that person have to make that decision?
                    How about a Living Will? State on your own terms up to what point you want all medical care done to you and at what point you want the plug pulled. Granted, in the end the decision might now be what you want, but atleast you leave behind a message of what you wanted.
                    RC Agent
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RC Agent
                      How about a Living Will?
                      My wife and I have recently done just that, in credit card sized format for our wallets.
                      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                      • #12
                        Well, If I had Alzheimer's and was 80+, I would jump from the highest precipice I could find. I don't want to be dead before I'm dead.

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                        • #13
                          It would take a major change in basic medical philosophy in order for doctors to be willing to stand back and "let nature take its course." Doctors are highly driven, highly competitive people who are taught almost from the beginning to view injury, illness, infirmity, etc. as an enemy to be vanquished. It's what drives so many physicians into medical research, and to be willing to try experimental techniques on their patients. It's all an effort to improve quality and/or quantity of life at any cost. To stand back and do nothing is surrender, something that doctors do not handle well.

                          At this point it is obviously too late for your friends to take advantage of a living will. I agree wholeheartedly that everyone should take steps to make their wishes known before such circumstances arise. But I also agree that euthanasia without the patient's advised consent is a dangerous thing. Placing the decision of who lives or dies, who recieves medical attention and who does not, in the hands of others places one at the mercy of the others' self interest. Unless the emergency is dire, as in a war or natural disaster where medical care is limited, The decision should be entirely personal and consentual.

                          My heart goes out to your friend and his wife, Brian.

                          Kevin

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                          • #14
                            I am fully committed to doctors' drive to prolong life. But there are cases - such as Alzheimer's - where there is no meaningful chance of any kind of recovery, and once the person has passed into full-on dementia all you're keeping alive is their suffering.

                            As far as who is qualified to make such a decision - well if I didn't trust my wife to make that kind of decision, I wouldn't be married to her. Plus, many of us have living wills. Or have simply proclaimed loudly to our family and friends that we'll HAUNT THE LIVING CRAP out of anyone that keeps us alive as a vegetable.
                            The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                            I'm the least you could do
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I would still get screwed

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                            • #15
                              Brian,
                              I'm sorry about your friend.
                              My Mom and Stepfather are in the same boat.
                              Though they have enough resorces that she could get help when it got to be too much.

                              Oddly, she has the opposite problem.
                              He has diabetes, which has been under control for years (he is 90!).
                              But the medical people where they live have a sort of "well, he's just going to go down hill and die anyway" attitude towards controlling it.
                              But why add to his problems?
                              Chuck
                              秋音的爸爸

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