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  • Vegetative patients may have awareness...

    To say that this needs further study is the understatment of the century....



    WASHINGTON (AP) --Advanced brain scanning uncovered startling signs of awareness in a woman in a vegetative state, British scientists reported Thursday --a finding that complicates one of medicine's ethical minefields.

    The work is sure to elicit pleas from families desperate to know if loved ones deemed beyond medical help have brain activity that doctors don't suspect. "Can he or she hear and understand me?'' is a universal question.

    It's far too soon to raise hopes, the British researchers and U.S. brain specialists stress. There's no way to know if this 23-year-old woman, brain-damaged over a year ago, will recover, and therefore if her brain activity meant anything medically. Her brain injury may not be typical of patients in a vegetative state.

    Scientists don't even agree on whether the woman had some real awareness --she seemed to follow, mentally, certain commands --or if her brain was responding more automatically to speech.

    "This is just one patient. The result in one patient does not tell us whether any other patient will show similar results, nor whether this result will have any bearing on her,'' cautioned neuroscientist Adrian Owen of Britain's Medical Research Council. He led the novel brain-scanning experiment, reported in the journal Science.
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    How could they tell? First, they checked that she could process speech. Upon being told "there was milk and sugar in the coffee,'' the fMRI showed brain regions reacting the same in the woman and in healthy volunteers.

    Then came the big test. Owen told the woman to perform a mental task --to imagine herself playing tennis and walking through her house. Motor-control regions of her brain lit up like they did in the healthy people he compared with her.

    "There is no other explanation for this than that she has intentionally decided to involve herself in the study and do what we asked when we asked,'' Owen said in an interview.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Core2 Duo E7500 2.93, Asus P5Q Pro Turbo, 4gig 1066 DDR2, 1gig Asus ENGTS250, SB X-Fi Gamer ,WD Caviar Black 1tb, Plextor PX-880SA, Dual Samsung 2494s

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    • #3
      All I hope is that if I am in a vegetative state, they pull the plug and let me move on to a decomposing state with dignity.

      IMHO, it is cruel and inhuman to keep such people alive, just because we have the technology to do so, even if 0.0001% of them may eventually regain consciousness but remain in a very impaired state. Not to mention that it is a waste of money, equipment and human resources, that could be put to better use treating those with a hope for recovery to a further useful and dignified life.

      The only valid excuse for doing so is to allow organs to be harvested for transplants, and this only for a matter of hours.
      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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      • #4
        But if exploring this means they find a way to bring them out.....
        Dr. Mordrid
        ----------------------------
        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Brian Ellis
          All I hope is that if I am in a vegetative state, they pull the plug and let me move on to a decomposing state with dignity.

          IMHO, it is cruel and inhuman to keep such people alive, just because we have the technology to do so, even if 0.0001% of them may eventually regain consciousness but remain in a very impaired state. Not to mention that it is a waste of money, equipment and human resources, that could be put to better use treating those with a hope for recovery to a further useful and dignified life.

          The only valid excuse for doing so is to allow organs to be harvested for transplants, and this only for a matter of hours.
          Exactly, which is why I mean to get a living will to forbid keeping me alive. What I find cruel though is to let those people starve to death (especially if - and I know that's a big if - they have awareness), while we could also artificially and peacefully put them to death, like we already do with pets and some countries do with murderers.
          Last edited by az; 9 September 2006, 02:09.
          There's an Opera in my macbook.

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          • #6
            Less developed countries? As opposed to braindead wussy misplaced compassion countries that feed and house murderers on the public dollar?

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            • #7
              Wow, I knew someone would take the bait, but I didn't think it'd be so quick

              I'll edit it out, OK? I really didn't want to lead this thing off topic and straight into temp.
              There's an Opera in my macbook.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                But if exploring this means they find a way to bring them out.....
                No way! Even if it happened, the chances of being able to resume a normal life without loss of personality and physical and/or mental capacity are nil. It is a denial of human dignity and the right to die. By what right is anyone able to conduct such experiments without the express wish of the patient (victim)?

                This attitude of denying the fact of death is ridiculous and is tantamount to being an extension of the experiments conducted by Dr Josef Mengele.

                And where are these experiments carried out? In the same country where placental and embryonic stem cell research is banned. Where is the logic in that?
                Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                • #9
                  But life is holyâ„¢!
                  There's an Opera in my macbook.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by az
                    But life is holyâ„¢!
                    Holyâ„¢ Sh!t
                    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                    I'm the least you could do
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I would still get screwed

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                    • #11
                      OK, let's get down to personal facts.

                      At the age of 96, my mother still had all her marbles, albeit she needed a walking stick to move around. She still played championship bridge, her lifelong hobby. My last real memory of her was I took her to some show gardens that she wanted to see, for which she was grateful. Three days later she had a fairly massive stroke and went into a coma. The doctors predicted that there was a chance of partial recovery but she was on essential life support. The EEGs showed some brain activity, but it was patchy and very abnormal.

                      I asked the doctors to stop the essential life support and let her go naturally and peacefully and with dignity. Unfortunately, this request was overruled by my elder brother. She regained consciousness about 6 weeks later, hemiplegic plus, incontinent, unable to do anything for herself, not even drink or feed herself. Worse, her mind was gone. The only faculty she had left was speech, almost unintelligible, but loud and demanding, making life a misery for the nurses, staff and other patients around her. She lasted another 2 years in this state until a pneumonia mercifully took her. Her last words to me were, "Who are you?"

                      My brother said after the funeral that I had been right, no one had the right to stop her dying and he apologised to me. He also said that, in a rare moment of lucidity, she had asked him why she hadn't died and she wished she had. In reality, her obstreperousness in the last two years was an expression of anger at her sort.

                      I prefer to remember her as she was before her stroke and I cherish that last memory of her. What was left afterwards was an empty shell, without a soul. My mother died two years before she was pronounced dead.

                      I don't wish it on anyone to have to decide whether the plug should be pulled or not.
                      Last edited by Brian Ellis; 9 September 2006, 05:00.
                      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                      • #12
                        That was very touching and insightful, Brian. My grandmother died over a course of a few months, heavily sedated. We nursed her in her home, and I must say, I never want to experience that again. I can hardly remember what she was like when she was still active.

                        And that's exactly why I want a living will for myself to let me die, and - you may call me egoistic - I wish everyone I know would as well, so I don't have to suffer through what Brian has had to go through. And of course so that my friends and family can remember me the way I lived, not the way I died, and because I really don't see the point in making life so much harder for the ones I love just so I can have a few very miserable months I would rather not live through anyway.

                        One should cling to life as long as it is worth living, but there is a point when it isn't anymore, and then it's time to let it go.
                        There's an Opera in my macbook.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by az
                          But life is holyâ„¢!
                          And the noble ones know best what's better for you...


                          PS. KvH, I wonder if you have any ground in discussing death penalty untill you'd reply to questions in this thread... (and just to be clear - similarly to az, I don't think we should bring this thread further in this direction...but you're welcome to, for example, respond in linked thread )

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                          • #14
                            my grandfather died 9 months before his body did.
                            cancer took him
                            for last last 9 months he was in a fetal position on his bed. he didn't know my name or who I was even though he saw me every week.
                            when it it my time, let me go with dignity. If I am unable to pull the plug myself, please someone pull it for me.
                            I have touched lives, i have made people smile - maybe not here, but in my personal life.
                            I have lived, i have loved, i have done what I need to do.
                            that is all.
                            Juu nin to iro


                            English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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