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  • Aircraft bombing plot stopped in UK....

    British police say they have arrested 21 people in connection with a terrorist plot to blow up aircraft flying from the United Kingdom to the United States.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Lets hope it's stopped.
    ______________________________
    Nothing is impossible, some things are just unlikely.

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    • #3
      Unlike 'regular' crime, where attempt murder is dealt with almost as harshly as with a murder, failed terror action is swept under the rug and nothing much is done against the sources.

      Example: A few years ago, a bomb was attached to a tanker which blew up in a fuel & gas deposit north of Tel Aviv. Had the explosion ignited one of the large tanks there, it would have caused a serious thermal reaction that would vaporize anything around ~2 mile radius (if my memory serves me well), with severe damage up to a ~4 mile radius. Since it failed, little has been done, other than tightening security in the fuel farm. On the other hand, had it succeeded, there would have been thousands of causualties from all the people living less than a mile away.
      Reality - attempt failed - security tightenend, hardly anyone remembers.
      Other way aroud - attempt succeeds - thousands of casualties - the PA erased from the face of the earth (?)

      edit: no, I don't call for erasing the PA. Its just to show the HUGE difference in reaction and memory when a terror attempt succeeds or fails. Had the 9/11 groups been apprehended before even going on the planes, we'd be living in a rather different world today.
      Last edited by TransformX; 10 August 2006, 01:50.
      "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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      • #4
        Overheard a Heathrow Airport Rep say on radio "this is not chaos it's managed confusion"
        ______________________________
        Nothing is impossible, some things are just unlikely.

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        • #5
          The thing that worries me about this kind of extreme precautionary action is that it is easy to do it, not because there is a real terrorist threat, but for a government to do damage limitation to its reputation. Nothing will be found and the government will say that it's because the criminals were scared of the measures we took when, in reality, there were no criminals at all. The man in the street will never know the truth and Blair & Co Ltd (very limited in intelligence) are certainly devious enough to do this kind of action.

          Did I say devious? Well he got the murderers of the Brazilian guy off scot-free, not even manslaughter, while two minors (12 and 13, at the time) have been found guilty of manslaughter for stabbing a 10 y.o. kid in the leg with a broken bottle, causing him to bleed to death.
          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Brian Ellis
            The thing that worries me about this kind of extreme precautionary action is that it is easy to do it, not because there is a real terrorist threat, but for a government to do damage limitation to its reputation. Nothing will be found and the government will say that it's because the criminals were scared of the measures we took when, in reality, there were no criminals at all. The man in the street will never know the truth and Blair & Co Ltd (very limited in intelligence) are certainly devious enough to do this kind of action.

            Did I say devious? Well he got the murderers of the Brazilian guy off scot-free, not even manslaughter, while two minors (12 and 13, at the time) have been found guilty of manslaughter for stabbing a 10 y.o. kid in the leg with a broken bottle, causing him to bleed to death.
            I have to disagree with you there Brian and I'll explain why and how.
            First thing is this - you don't need to invent terror activity. Just let your guard down and it'll happen. Claims like those you just had about such 'deviousness' aren't far from blaming governments of staging the madrid/bali or even the 9/11 bombing in order to sway the public opinion.
            I feel the need to repeat myself here, the distance between faking a potential terror activity and going all the way to staging it is closer than many would suspect.
            If Blair or anyone wanted to make some wind, there are more than enough willing terrorists out there that are just waiting for an opportunity to act, just give them a chance and you'll see.
            About the second part of what you've posted, that's another example of moral relativism. Does the fact that those who shot the Brazilian guy got 'scoff free' make the slow death of a 10yo kid any less bad? Not to mention that there's little in common between teen murderers and security forces, even when they are mistaken or even careless in their decisions.
            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Brian Ellis
              The thing that worries me about this kind of extreme precautionary action is that it is easy to do it, not because there is a real terrorist threat, but for a government to do damage limitation to its reputation. Nothing will be found and the government will say that it's because the criminals were scared of the measures we took when, in reality, there were no criminals at all. The man in the street will never know the truth and Blair & Co Ltd (very limited in intelligence) are certainly devious enough to do this kind of action.

              Did I say devious? Well he got the murderers of the Brazilian guy off scot-free, not even manslaughter, while two minors (12 and 13, at the time) have been found guilty of manslaughter for stabbing a 10 y.o. kid in the leg with a broken bottle, causing him to bleed to death.

              The above comment shows why it's so difficult to track down these undesirables and is one of the reasons why we have a problems today that we have.
              Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
              Weather nut and sad git.

              My Weather Page

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              • #8
                Anyway... back on topic.
                I read that the plot involved using some kind of liquid or gel based explosive and putting it in a carry on container such as toothpaste tubes or hairspray/gel and then blow up the planes while they were over US cities to cause maximum damage (instead of over the atlantic).
                Wouldn't they need a lot of the explosive, and would that show up in the carry on x-ray screening?

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                • #9
                  You don't need a lot of explosives if the damage maker is a chemical/biological agent. The wind is more than enough to do the job. If you want a big explosion, the aircraft itself can give one.
                  As for showing up in X-Ray scans, I don't know just how good they are, but I don't really think they could tell the difference between legit substances like wine, body lotion, yogurt etc and chemo/biological weapons (considering they are stored in innocend looking containers).
                  "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                  • #10
                    But it's just a plot by the Government to keep control don't you know.
                    Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
                    Weather nut and sad git.

                    My Weather Page

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                    • #11
                      What happens if someone opens the emergency exit at a high altitude? btw. Will the plane crash?
                      ______________________________
                      Nothing is impossible, some things are just unlikely.

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                      • #12
                        as far as I know, *apart from the potential of the slide causing issues* the cabin will depressurize with the risk of anyone wandering by being sucked out.

                        oxygen masks will drop, plane will decend to a lower alt, and land at the first available airport.
                        Juu nin to iro


                        English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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                        • #13
                          What happens if someone opens the emergency exit at a high altitude? btw. Will the plane crash?
                          An alarm will sound, but nothing can happen if there is a positive pressure differential between the inside and the outside of the aircraft: the doors swing inward on an airplane for a reason... even a quarter PSI difference will translate to a huge amount of holding power for the door. In normal operations, the cabin is overpressurized by a small degree as soon as the doors are closed, effectively sealing the aircraft while still on the ground.
                          Hey, Donny! We got us a German who wants to die for his country... Oblige him. - Lt. Aldo Raine

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                          • #14
                            Arr Stock Market has dropped aren't I'm glad I sold my Max ISA's a couple of days ago.
                            They got me once but they ain't getting me again.
                            Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
                            Weather nut and sad git.

                            My Weather Page

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                            • #15
                              Brian;

                              Please get your UN-addled head out of your backside, it's not dignified.

                              There IS a low level world war going on, much of which is not being fought with standing armies. It was declared by radical jihadists against the west and our friends elsewhere 30+ years ago and no amount of denial is useful.

                              In this incident the UK & US received much help from the Pakistani security services to foil a large plot to bomb 10-12 aircraft over the Atlantic as close to simultaneously as possible. This plot closely mirrors the one planned by Ramsey Yousef after his sucessful bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. Fortunately he was captured, but his plots sucessor was 9/11.

                              You remember Ramsey Yousef don't you? He is Khalid Shake Mohamed's nephew and, according to Clinton Administration officials, was an Iraqi security agent. Khalid Shake Mohamed was the archetect of the 9/11 attacks and chief of operations for AQ before his capture. Before the 1993 WTC bombing Yousef called KSM ~46 times where he was living & planning at the time: in Iraq under the protection of someone called Saddam.

                              Opps....Iraq had no connections to AQ according to your buddies at the UN and elsewhere. Wonder how that got missed? Hmmm...not PC, but there you are.

                              The increase in security that is clogging airports from Europe to the US is because of the methodology; liquid explosives that are not nitrates. Most explosives are nitrated; TNT, plastic explosives, ANFO etc. and can be detected by nitrogen sniffing devices.

                              The liquid explosive in question is TATP; acetone peroxide. All forms are very sensitive to temperature/shock/flame etc., even more so than nitroglycerine. It could be hidden in almost any liquid from contact lens solution to toothpaste or hair gel.

                              TATP is also the explosive used in the 7/7 bombings in London and the precursors were found in posession of Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber. Tx can tell you all about TATP: it's a favorite of HAMAS when they attack Israelis.

                              These liquid explosives can be mixed on the plane and are extremely hard to detect, which is why all liquids are as of today banned from carry on luggage save for medicines and baby formula.
                              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 10 August 2006, 08:35.
                              Dr. Mordrid
                              ----------------------------
                              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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