Modern submission

[lecter]

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/15/tasers-electrifying-new-xrep-shotgun-fired-projectile/

Using a 12-gauge shotgun as a taser...that just HAS to hurt. I wonder how much fun those 35 lucky testers had with it. Somehow those testers remind me of how The Simpsons' Barney makes a living as a drunken guinea pig.

[Wombat]

Seems kinda useful, but I can't wait until the first time a XREP-marked shotgun actually has slugs in it. Oops.

[Claymonkey]

100% (of the 25 testers) said they would not recommend the sensation to friends and family.

ummmm... DUH!

[Dr Mordrid]

I want a box

Dr. Mordrid

[Gurm]

This reminds me of the Jackass segment where Johnny Knoxville let them use the most powerful deterrents they could find on him.

It was a really early episode, first season. They hit him with a taser, a stun wand, mace, pepper spray, etc. (Not all at the same time!)

Each time they got his reaction. Funny, but scary.

-------------------

Somewhere I saw a video of a guy who let himself be stun gunned in the nuts... ouch!

[Marshmallowman]

Was that when they shot the taser on to his bare chest, afterwoods they realised that the taser electrodes have barded hooks to hang on to clothing or skin in his case...double-ouch

[Gurm]

Was that when they shot the taser on to his bare chest, afterwoods they realised that the taser electrodes have barded hooks to hang on to clothing or skin in his case...double-ouch

Yup. OWWW!

[MultimediaMan]

RE: Mis-Identified shotgun rounds...

This is something that has been covered years ago.

Generally, LEOs which use less-than-lethal shotgun rounds (Rubberized Buckshot, Stunbags, Teargas rounds, and now these Tazer-rounds) usually have a special shotgun for the purpose stowed in the patrol car which has either an Dayglo Orange painted stock and forearm or (for the more modernized departments), the stocks and forearms are actually molded out of Dayglo Orange colored polymers. In either case, they are usually engraved and stamped "less-lethal".

That said, less-than-lethal weapons, while an excellent PR campaign tool, are not commonly issued: They require much more training to use and often put the officer at a greater risk of being harmed because they have be in closer proximity to oftentimes violent suspects. Several people have died after being tazered due to seizures or heart attacks which may have actually been caused by the device. About the only time they are issued generally is when there is a riot-type situation likely to happen or is already occuring.

Here in the US, there is a marked trend towards riding with an AR-15 type rifle (semi-automatic) rather than a shotgun in the front seat because of the relative inaccuracy and short range of the Shotgun.

Brian Ellis may not like it one bit, but it is saving lives. People are able to shoot far more accurately with a rifle than with a pistol. Most hoods, when confronted with a rifle know it's time to face the facts and get face-down before they are put down. Those that don't are probably crazed enough not to care: for this, the rifle is again a rather grim solution: Most people hit by police armed with rifles tend to die.

[Dr Mordrid]

So do those hit by shotguns.

Most LEO's here feel better with the shotgun as their alternative weapon because it's shot covers a larger area than a pistol, making a 1 shot hit in the dark more likely. They also don't tend to penetrate walls as well as rifles when using 00 buckshot, preventing the wounding of innocents in adjacent buildings.

Accuracy? How about a 3" radius at 100 meters using a solid hardened sabot slug in a rifled slug barrel. Many times these will stop a car if you hit the engine or a drive line component.

They don't call 'em "street howitzers" for nothing and in my experience, and I do have some in this regard....one unfortunately involving my having to drop the hammer, NOTHING puts people on the ground faster than facing into a 12 ga shotgun barrel. That's one big m*****f*****g hole to stare down.

Then you have jacketed sabots like the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra etc. that are basically jacketed hollow point bullets and very accurate at rather long ranges....far longer than you'll use in most combat situations. Use 'em all the time for bear hunting....at least when I don't have the .54 Hawken in the field. 1,900 fp/s muzzle velocity and 3,086 ft/lbs of energy makes 1 shot drops common, even at 50-100 yards.

Bottom line: modern rifled shotguns with a red dot sight are very accurate at combat ranges with slugs. Shot is safer for the public when evacuation isn't possible. Even so with 00 magnum buckshot loads you can basically cut an average sized man in half at combat ranges. Worked on lots of those in my ER days and saw it happen once when a M/C gang fight spilled over into our ER and a Sheriff "did the deed" one one of 'em. Gruesome.....much more so than in the movies.

Of course if evacuation is possible then rifles & assault rifles become a more effective option, but not as flexible as the street howitzer.

Dr. Mordrid

[MultimediaMan]

Doc, I would agree with most of your points, but your argument does not consider the "larger picture" of operational deployment. Quite a few people I know would take exception to the assertion that Buckshot does not overpenetrate, or even the suggestion that it penetrates less. Quite a few emprical studies have found that Assault rifles using standard FMJ ball rounds actually have less risk of overpenetration than a shotgun or a SMG because the projectile tends to fragment and break up, and since it has less momentum. The slower, but far heavier moving lead pellets of the shotgun or jacketed pistol bullets of the SMGs have more momentum and thus lose energy much slower than do the high velocity rifle rounds. I must admit, I took those tests with a grain of salt until I saw the photos and videos of actual standard sheet-rocked walls (textured and painted) built on a regular 2x4 wall sections being shot at with Pistols, SMGs, Shotguns, Carbines and Rifles. I had a hard time arguing afterward.

Most police-issued shotguns are loaded with buckshot. Personally, I like the idea of having more than one ammo type: but for a police department, it might not be a good idea. Have a department with 40 officers? You'll get 40 opinions on how they want their shotguns loaded. Oh sure, you can mandate how they should be loaded, but how do you guarantee compliance? There are several situations where having more than one ammo type can be a liability. Police Officers don't have the luxury of asking "Gee, did I load buckshot or slugs in this thing?" "Am I shooting a large bore carbine or a shotgun?" when they NEED it most. Especially if there is more than one officer in the patrol car as is becoming more common, even in rural areas. No flame, just something to consider.

Any Shotgun, Submachinegun, Carbine or Rifle (or even a pistol for that matter) with a red-dot sight can be a fearsome combination: they are faster to aim and far more accurate at nearly any range compared to conventional open sights (particularly the barleycorn sights on police shotguns). Even the military has caught on. You see Aimpoint, C-More and EOTech sights everyday in the pictures coming in from Iraq. You also see a lot of ARs which have standard issue sights. Look at the units and you will find Infantry battalions tend to have more optical sights than Mechanized battalions do. That should tell you something right there.

There are some very practical reasons for not putting that dot sight on a rifle or a shotgun in the cab of a patrol car: Police can get into and out of their cars dozens of times per day in the course of a single shift, the possibility of the sight being hit by a baton, clipboard or splashed by coffee cannot be ignored. Dot sights require batteries: you have to turn them on. If the battery goes flat, you have a useless sighting device (don't ask how I know).

There is no doubt as to the power of the shotgun: Whether or not it is a good idea to employ it is another. In my area, the matter is settled: they have both. But the AR-15 Carbine rides "shotgun" while the Remington 870 is in the trunk.

One of the strongest arguments for a rifle comes from the pool of the police recruits themselves: A high percentage of police officers today are ex-military (the highest percentage of those being Marines). They know the capabilities of the Rifle better than the Shotgun.

[Jon P. Inghram]

Captain Nemo is not impressed.