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  • Genesis by physics?

    CJolley suggested this be copied to its own thread. Originally it was a reply elsewhere;

    Perhaps more tin-hat material like Nowhere's White House post, but IMO interesting speculation;

    1. Some physicists think they could create a new universe in the lab by snipping off a piece of spacetime, whereupon it would expand on its own, as a new universe, into another portion of the multiverse.

    Smithsonian article on possibility of an anthropic principle....

    MIT & Univ. of Mexico recipe:

    MIT's Edward Farhi and Alan Guth and the University of Mexico's Jemal Guven may have worked out a way to use inflation to make a universe right in the laboratory. Here is their recipe:

    Form a small black hole from matter with a mass of, say, 10 kilograms (22 pounds) in such a way that the interior "immediately inflates," Harrison summarizes, "not in our universe, but in a reentrant bubble-like spacetime that is connected to our universe via the umbilical cord of the black hole." (Don't ask.) The black hole will then evaporate, severing the connection between our universe and the new one. Don't worry if you make a mess of it, Harrison advises: poorly made ones will probably never have life in them.
    2. On the other hand much has been written of late about the universe consisting of three things; matter, energy and information. This is the "holographic universe" theory. If the universe is indeed a hologram then its size and dimensionality are illusory, just as is the size and volume taken up by an optical hologram.

    Text of Scientific American article: holographic universe

    In a holographic universe it's not too much of a stretch to think some information about the universes creation could be hard-coded into the "image" and, perhaps, its consituent parts including the organic material that evolves therein. This follows the quantum mechanical dictum that information cannot be completely destroyed, not even by the black hole used to create a universe in the example above. Stephen Hawking argued the opposite until late in 2004, but now even he has come around and conceded his bet with CalTechs John Preskill (Preskill gets an encyclopedia).

    Think of this as "hidden content", much like that often found in games and other programs.

    Analysis:

    Presuming that #2 could have been "created" by #1 in another part of the multiverse then a "creator" could exist. If this is the case and "passed on" information is indeed coded into the structure of the local universe then perhaps the predisposition of humans towards spirtuality is this information manifesting itself in the first lifeform on this planet capable of expressing it.

    Now you just have to figure out the motivations and capabilities of the "creator" and decode whatever material and/or suggestions he/she/it passed on.

    Material for a novel or series of short stories?

    Hmmm....could be they've already been written by every culture on the planet. Interpretations differ and are occaisionally distorted, but the core data seems very similar across many places and times.

    If this were indeed the case I have the feeling that many here would still not accept this entity unless he/she/it had a PhD after their name, even if that name were YHVH.

    Dr. Mordrid
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    If what were indeed the case?
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    • #3
      Our Universe being a holographic one ?

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      • #4
        Just thought I'd throw this into the discussion. Don't know if it has anything to do with the price of beans, but this new book suggests that the so-called Zero-Point Field connects everything in the universe (including humans) to everything else. It also suggests that the information generated within a living brain can become part of this all-encompassing field (of course, comparisons to Star Wars' "Force" are inevitable).

        Got to look this one up. Could be interesting.

        Kevin

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Admiral
          Our Universe being a holographic one ?
          So if our universe turns out to be holographic then that is a good reasonm to believe in [a] god?

          I think many new-age magazines would jump onto speculations like these. Doesn't mean they actually make sense.
          Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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          • #6
            I honestly don't know, I can neither deny or confirm this God's existance.
            All I can do is to follow my heart and try to keep on the right track as much as I can

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            • #7
              Not saying that a holographic universe makes sense religiously, but it would explain several aspects that put science and religion at loggerheads; how a "god" could exist in another "plane" (brane (look up membrane theory)? universe?) and how "he/she/it" could pass information to this universe during (or after) its creation.

              Until someone finds a way to test it things will stay that way. Some reputable scientists realize the conflict is also a social strain (just look at the harsh attitudes expressed here when religion comes up ) and have suggested looking for "passed information" in the cosmic background radiation etc.

              The point is that anyone making absolute judgements in either direction is on thin ice. Enter faith. Some have it, some don't. Both need to learn to live with the decision of the other, including not limiting the free exercise of either in the public square.

              Dr. Mordrid
              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 1 January 2006, 14:10.
              Dr. Mordrid
              ----------------------------
              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Admiral
                I honestly don't know, I can neither deny or confirm this God's existance.
                All I can do is to follow my heart and try to keep on the right track as much as I can
                Damn straight
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                  Not saying that a holographic universe makes sense religiously, but it would explain several aspects that put science and religion at loggerheads;
                  Science and religion are not at loggerheads. Good science says nothing at all about gods or faith - it's other people's insecurities if they feel that their faith needs to be validated with every word ever spoken.
                  Gigabyte P35-DS3L with a Q6600, 2GB Kingston HyperX (after *3* bad pairs of Crucial Ballistix 1066), Galaxy 8800GT 512MB, SB X-Fi, some drives, and a Dell 2005fpw. Running WinXP.

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                  • #10
                    What Wombat said.

                    Doc, I don't know who you mean when you talk about "harsh attitudes", really. (Is "here" MURC or the US?). But you made it clear to me that my suspicion of your initial post being at least partly politically motivated was right. I'm kinda allergic to the use of "science" to forward a religious agenda and luckily it always fails.
                    Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
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                    • #11
                      "here" meaning the US. Should have made that clearer.

                      That said many who do hammer religion use science as their "tool" to do so. Sad but true and why you often see those of faith so upset these days.

                      Not "pushing" anything at all, just noting that recent articles make those on both sides who bark about their position being exclusively correct are quite possibly wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

                      Time will tell where the balance ends up, but I do find it an intriguing thought that if we could create a universe that could be just one in a chain of such events. The possiblities:

                      creation by intent or by accident (black hole creation in an accelerator)?

                      if intent, then were the parameters designed to guarantee life? By who and why?

                      etc.

                      The mind boggles....if it's an open one.

                      Dr. Mordrid
                      Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 2 January 2006, 19:22.
                      Dr. Mordrid
                      ----------------------------
                      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                        ...
                        Some reputable scientists ... have suggested looking for "passed information" in the cosmic background radiation etc.
                        ...
                        Names or links?
                        Chuck
                        秋音的爸爸

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                          "here" meaning the US. Should have made that clearer.
                          thx. just wanted to be sure.
                          That said many who do hammer religion use science as their "tool" to do so. Sad but true and why you often see those of faith so upset these days.
                          AFAIK, science is often used to establish that a literal interpretation of parts of the bible makes little sense. Religious peoples and churches have fought this fight a long, long time and some still do. Yes, I would "hammer" someone with scientific theory when they claim the universe is 6k years old. I might hammer people who proclaim ethics can be based on the bible only because it is god given with the same, not to argue that god does not exist per se but to argue that as the bible is man-made, so is its ethics.

                          AFAIU the present US situation, the battle really is about what the meaning of seperation of state and church should be and AFAIK that is not fought with science. It's a political issue, not a scientific one regardless of whether one believes or not. In fact, I would be surprised if many of the "seperatists" are not actual believers.
                          Not "pushing" anything at all, just noting that recent articles make those on both sides who bark about their position being exclusively correct are quite possibly wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
                          For my sake, could you show me a recent article by some scientists that use scientific threories to show that god does not exist (and that on top of that argues that god should be banned from the public domain)? I know of those on the other side...
                          Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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                          • #14
                            Umfriend;

                            I'm little concerned about the literal reading of the Bible. Every theologian worth a grain understands that the Bible was translated, compiled and edited by humans and that flawed translations are rampant (ex: Moses Red Sea crossing was actually at the Reed Sea, a marshland).

                            What's important is the Word, not the envelope.

                            The arguement here (the US) is partially a church-state issue but also one of radical atheists, supported by groups like the "American Civil Liberties Union" trying to force those of faith out of the public square.

                            The ACLU often uses mis-information about court rulings on the subject to convince school districts and communnities that they can't celebrate Christmas and other religions holidays when this is the opposite of what the courts have held. In some cases they've actually convinced schools/cities that they can celebrate Muslim and Jewish holidays but not Christmas lest they be sued

                            Needless to say many think the ACLU needs a name change to reflect its recent exclusionary activities

                            The recent fight has been to rectify this situation and convince those schools and city govts. that their information was wrong and that those of faith have every right to be in the public square. No more. No less.

                            Originally posted by cjolley
                            Names or links?


                            Can't link to the whole article because it's premium content, but here's the article preview;

                            Article Preview

                            Looking for a creator's signature in space

                            * 23 December 2005
                            * Hazel Muir
                            * Magazine issue 2531

                            If a creator wanted to leave us a message, where would it be? Why, in the cosmic microwave background, of course

                            IN DA Bginnin God cre8d da heavens & da earth. If the text message bible makes you cringe, perhaps you'd better stop reading now. Because some physicists believe there is another way to pick up a divine message that will leave traditionalists rolling their eyes to the heavens. Forget scripture, they say, try looking out to space instead.

                            Impossible? Not necessarily, according to physicists Stephen Hsu and Anthony Zee. No one knows why our universe came into existence. But Hsu and Zee argue that if some superior being or beings did intentionally create it, they might have left an elaborate signature in the cosmic microwave background, the relic radiation of the big bang. And in 20 or 30 years' time, we might finally be able to spot the message, the "word of God" if you like.

                            "I sometimes wonder what's the most mind-boggling thing that could happen during my lifetime," ...
                            Both Zee and Hsu are physicists of note.

                            Stephen Hsu's page: http://duende.uoregon.edu/~hsu/resint.html

                            Anthony Zee's page: http://theory.itp.ucsb.edu/~zee/

                            Dr. Mordrid
                            Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 3 January 2006, 13:53.
                            Dr. Mordrid
                            ----------------------------
                            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                            • #15
                              "If a creator wanted to leave us a message, where would it be? Why, in the cosmic microwave background, of course"

                              Hogwash. Mankind always puts God just beyond his reach, in hopes of being on the cusp of that reach.

                              God's message is on top of an enormous mountain, until people can climb the mountain. Then it's in a far away land, until people make the journey. Then it's beyond the sea, until people sail around the world. Then it's above the clouds, until man pierces the cloudy veil.

                              Plus, where would that leave all the people that lived and died before now? Were they inherently unworthy of God's word? A message, if there were any, would have to be available to all. Not in the stars, or the sky, or even in a Book, because none of these are accessible to all of Man.
                              Gigabyte P35-DS3L with a Q6600, 2GB Kingston HyperX (after *3* bad pairs of Crucial Ballistix 1066), Galaxy 8800GT 512MB, SB X-Fi, some drives, and a Dell 2005fpw. Running WinXP.

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