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  • If there are no baggetts, eat sh*t.

    Loosely translated from an israeli news site (news.walla.co.il), originally by Gil Cole (in Hebrew):

    Friends, it's time to scream against the atrocities commited by the French apartheid against the population of muslim immigrants. On the injustice in the division of resources to their faltering areas, protest against the eye pecking richness of the French, white, christian, educated people compared with the black, muslim and mostly less educated population, sentenced to life of suffering and poverty. The mass arrest of young protesters, who rised against the atrocoties of French cultural and economical occupation and the erasing of their religion and national anti-chritsian anti-western culture are just more reasons for hate.

    The actions againt the security forces, burning of schools and post offices are legitimate forms of protest against the institutions of an opressive government. Those schools are a tool for pro-wester, neo-colonist, capitalist and anti-muslim indoctorination which only serves to perpetuate the economic gap and the ethnic and religious discrimination. Those burn down the souls and pride of immigrant children in order to produce more parts in the anti-religious-economical exploitation machine.

    I'm therefore calling my friends in the universities all over the world to boycott all French academic institutions and researches which live off the industry of exploitation, apartheid, hate and belligerence of the satiated west. I'm calling to boycott all French products and to fight against the government of war criminals who massacred over a milion muslim Algerians, deported over two milions of them from their own country, the massacres, rapes and looting in Africa by their Foreign Legion, the affixing of racist doctrine in tribal wars in Africa and financing and supporting the mass massacres in Rwanda along many other crimes.

    Every form of armed struggle against those agents of colonialist, capitalist and anti-muslim evil should be condoned. The citizens of France have no other to blame but themselves, for dragging that deprived mass of people out to the streets. Remember: Terrorism is the weapon of the weak, the trampled honor of those immigrants is the French government's doing.

    The above letter is factually correct, it's also very demagogic, though such proclamations have been heard many times against Israel from the mouths of European politicians and over much less wrongs than their own countries commited. The European hypocrisy has played over Israel's trouble for a very long time, and now those new developments might put a mirror before the Europeans face and teach them the old saying: "Don't Judge, Lest you Be Judged"
    "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

  • #2
    The French government has announced yesterday evening that they would start programs to improve the situation of the people living in poor areas while not giving in on law enforcement. Moreover, under french law, ones rights are the same whether one lives in poor or rich areas. As long as you are living in an area under french control, all have the same rights. How does Israel match that vis-a-vis the arabs in the occupied territories?

    (edit: not that I have any sympathy for bricup. I do not.)
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    • #3
      You're contradicting yourself Umfriend. You admitted that non white-christians don't get equal rights in France, not in higher education, not in jobs, not in many other places. Unlike Israel, France isn't in war with Arabs/Muslims worldwide. Besides, the letter about is still factually correct.

      About the occupied terrotories, I'll say this - if you check their state of health, employment, education etc. you'll find that during the Egyptian/Jordan occupation (before 1967) they were much much worse than when Israel came there. Ever since the Intifada started, things became worse for everybody.
      "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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      • #4
        There is no contradiction on this from my side. I never said that BY FRENCH LAW they do not have equal opportunities. Just in practice. Again, how does this compare to the territories?

        What is facutally correct? "The actions againt the security forces, burning of schools and post offices are legitimate forms of protest against the institutions of an opressive government."?? The statements relating to a war decades ago? Algeria and France made up decades ago. Does a boycot in connection with a war 50 years ago make any sense to you still? Or is it just chagrin here?

        Yes, I do believe living in the territories after 1967 and before the intifada has been the best life for the arabs there to date.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Umfriend
          There is no contradiction on this from my side. I never said that BY FRENCH LAW they do not have equal opportunities. Just in practice. Again, how does this compare to the territories?
          The territories are under martial law, they are not part of Israel.

          What is facutally correct? "The actions againt the security forces, burning of schools and post offices are legitimate forms of protest against the institutions of an opressive government."??
          The French admitted they need to channel more money to those places and people which were neglected. France and many U.N. nations think this statement is valid for tha Arabs to act against Israeli forces even for those not from the occupied territories.
          The statements relating to a war decades ago?
          The state of Israel exists since 1948 and still the Arabs are at war with it.
          Algeria and France made up decades ago. Does a boycot in connection with a war 50 years ago make any sense to you still? Or is it just chagrin here?
          Algeria claimed a few days or weeks ago that it will not have any friendly relationship with France unless France apologizes for the atrocities they commited there. Read the news.
          "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TransformX
            The territories are under martial law, they are not part of Israel.
            So we agree they do not compare then?


            The French admitted they need to channel more money to those places and people which were neglected. France and many U.N. nations think this statement is valid for tha Arabs to act against Israeli forces even for those not from the occupied territories.
            Bollocks. Many critisice israel regardless of what happens in France and as we agreed above, they don't compare nor relate so what's the point.

            The state of Israel exists since 1948 and still the Arabs are at war with it.
            Which is why people are still concerned about this and hardly about the war for independence fought in Algeria some 50 years ago.

            Algeria claimed a few days or weeks ago that it will not have any friendly relationship with France unless France apologizes for the atrocities they commited there. Read the news.
            Read it better.

            TX, it's not that I can not see Israel-supporters being at odds with France. But the idea that that article is on a same level as France's stance on the israeli-arab conflict is just poppycock.
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            • #7
              Well, why don't you ask European north-african immigrants about thair take on the subject?
              Why don't you ask Italian politicians what's their take about it as well?

              edit: Whether you like it or not, Europe robbed, enslaved and massacred Africa in long years of colonialism. Africans are now demanding some of it back.
              "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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              • #8
                OK, can we agree on something here please? If one of us posts something and the other one believes it is giberish. Can we stay on topic? Do you really need me to check with immigrants and italian politicians whether the initial post is simply not very, well, to the point of anything? Can't you just address my arguments instead of dragging everything and everyone and everytime into it? Really, where have I ever denied or excused Europe for whatever it has done in Africa? I mean, we may disgree on certain facts on that but have I ever even remotely indicated that I would completely deny whatever allegations you feel fit to make in this regard? And how would that relate in any reasonable sense to my comments on your initial post?
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                • #9
                  Well umf, you're constantly dragging it to the occupied teritories, ignoring all the muslim Arabs which are inside Israel and which caused their share of riots, terrorism etc. Why can you drag it one way and ignore the other and not let me do the same?
                  "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                  • #10
                    Ah, ok. I assumed that "though such proclamations have been heard many times against Israel from the mouths of European politicians" applied to proclamations regarding the territories. So is it your opinion that your initial quote did not relate to anything near the territories. OK then, my bad.

                    In my defence, I must have been confused by the fact that around the same time you also re-started http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?t=54258. I'm pretty positive that bricup relates to the occupied territories as well. Guess it's all my bad. Sorry.

                    I would appreciate it if you could indeed confirm that in your view the "proclamations against Israel" apply mainly to Israel proper (say, 1967 borders) as opposed to anything near the territories.
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                    • #11
                      Those proclamations are against all the places inhabitated by Arabs.
                      If you'll check the different maps, you'll see that here are the 67 borders and the 48 borders.
                      The Arabs in the cities which were conquered in 1948 were given full citizenship. The areas conquered in 1967 are -not- part of Israel, the people there have no citizenship and they are under martial law. Terror and riots came mostly but not only from the occupied terrotories (67 lines) but also from Israel itself (48 lines).
                      "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                      • #12
                        I posted this to the original thread, but since the economic conversation seems to have moved here....

                        The social aspect is the fault of the French socialist system.

                        The tax/regulatory system required to maintain this 19th Century relic has all but ruined their economy (and many others in Europe with the same or similar leanings). Look at any measure of economic activity and this becomes plain to anyone with open eyes.

                        Result: slow job growth, which results in high unemployment, esp. among the young.

                        This creates frustration and makes these kids willing cannon fodder for the professional agitators who have been running things since day 2 of the riots, be they Islamist or organized crime (BTW: they often work together, esp. as regards the drug trade)

                        This kind frustration will grow to include older workers when the inevitable collapse of the "nanny state" makes it necessasry to cut social benefits, esp. to older workers who are making up an ever increasing pool of non-producers.

                        IMO this could cause a major decline in Europe, perhaps moving it into a lower plane of econmic activity behind North America and Asia in particular.

                        The fix? Market and structural reforms most oh-so politically correct Europeans are unlikely to make.

                        Dr. Mordrid
                        Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 8 November 2005, 11:25.
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                        • #13
                          Sry Doc, this is a different topic, in my book at least.

                          TX, now I am really confused:
                          1. You say that the proclamations against Israel mentioned in the article do relate to the territories (albeit perhaps not exclusively)
                          2. When I talk about these territories you say "you're constantly dragging it to the occupied teritories, [...] Why can you drag it one way and ignore the other and not let me do the same?

                          IF the 1st post and the territories are related, then I am not dragging at all. I am just READING THE POST.

                          The post is an attempt at some sort of tit-for-tat game and I am arguing that it fails, for any objective audience, to meet the test of reasonable discourse as it equates (not just compares) unequal situations (by far).

                          The post is very closely linked TO the territories and Israels policies and actions there, at the least inclusively, of which I have not been critical AT ALL in this thread. Not even close, remotely, by implication or whatever.

                          I challenge you to either address my points or call it a day.

                          Gawd I should have known better than to waste my time on this. muhamed.

                          edit: tone, just a bit
                          Last edited by Umfriend; 8 November 2005, 12:08.
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                          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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                          • #14
                            Easy:
                            1. The arabs living in the territories aren't Israeli citizens, thus have no rights of citizens and due to that can not complain about being treated differently.
                            2. The arabs who are Israeli citizens see themselves as Palestinians and act against the countrym aiding their Palestinian brothers. When asked if they'd rather be part of the PA, they decline. Example - the city of Um-el-Fahem.

                            BTW, check this from the other thead:
                            Originally posted by ALBPM
                            It's all Bushes fault

                            Uh,....What's a Paristinian???
                            Bottom line, take the letter for what it is and tell me what's wrong with it.
                            Last edited by TransformX; 8 November 2005, 12:22.
                            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                            • #15
                              So, uhm, we agree at least then that the "proclamations against Israel" apply to a situation that is not comparable to the situation on which the proclamations against france are based. Fine, that was my initial point. Have to say I find it cheap to make use of a non-comparable bad situation in country X to discredit any critique country X may have on country Y, but if it rocks your boat.....
                              Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
                              [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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