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I hate automotive designers

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  • I hate automotive designers

    The other day I was going to pick my brother up from work at 1:00AM and, while sitting a red light a couple blocks from work, my engine just dies: no stutter, cough, or anything, just dropped smoothly from idle to off. Cranked just fine but didn't show any signs of even trying to run. Had plenty gas and the fuel pump was working, all fuses were ok. Pushed the car the rest of the way to work and now it would start, but was missing really bad and blowing gasoline fumes out the exhaust big time. Plugs all looked ok, then I pulled wires to check which cylinder was missing and I discover that both 2 and 3 (it's a 4 cylinder) were totally dead. Rather doubted it was a fuel injection issue at that point 'cause it uses TBI. Wires were pretty new and in good shape, at least for the visible lengths. I began to suspect that a ignition coil went bad as that was the only thing that was shared between those cylinders.

    Now you discover the meaning behind the title of the thread: I'd like to (figuratively speaking) stick the sick bastard that thought the back of the back side of the engine below the intake manifold was a good spot for the ignition coils in one of these (again, just figuratively speaking.)
    The location makes it hard enough just to change the damn ignition wires, but the coils themselves were a nightmare. The throttle cables, a heater hose, some wiring harnesses, and the over-all cramped access between the back of the engine and the fire wall made it a horrible task to change them. Plus, guess where all the oil, grime, and gunk accumulates on the engine when you drive around? You guessed it, in the back! The engineering meeting must have gone something like this:

    Engineer #1: Hey, lets stick the ignition coils in a spot where we'll have to run absurdly long ignition wires all the way across the front of the engine, along the side, and finally down the back so that they're impossible to change without raising the vehicle!

    Engineer #2: Yeah, that's a great idea! That'll also ensure that when the cheap valve cover gasket leaks it'll get oil all over the ignition module, coils, and wires! Woot!

    One coil was obviously bad, it was cracked open and had a stalagtite of (previously molten) plastic hanging from one of the cracks. I figured I'd change both since they were only $20 each and if one went bad the other probably not long for this world. This is where the fun really began... the two coils (each runs two cylinders) turned out to be the only thing holding the ignition module to the engine, and trying to get the entire assembly back onto the mounting plate became an exercise in extreme frustration as there wasn't really enough room to hold one coil in place while keeping it aligned with the metal "washer" between the coil and module AND while keeping the module in the right spot on the engine mounting plate.

    After much swearing and sweating (did I mention it was really hot today and that I was doing this in a parking garage? ) I finally get everything back together, start the engine up, and... it's still missing. Ugh, the module must be bad too... off to Autozone to spend $70 more on a new module. Oh joy, time to remove everything again and then go through the exciting process of grinding grease into the wounds caused by the previous work, yay! Mercifully it ran fine after I got everything back together.

    Moral of the story? There's occasionally a good reason for the insane hourly rates that shops charge for repairs. Oh, that and apparently the most evil group of humans are automotive engineers.


  • #2
    They design the cars such that you don't want to do it yourself, but rather have to go to a repair shop. And guess what, only partner shops get the diagnostic hardware and software that is needed for most cars today (or at least makes it much easier to diagnose problems).

    AZ
    There's an Opera in my macbook.

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    • #3
      Some other examples of fine engineering:

      Mercedes SLK.
      A friend of mine used a phone holder that clips to the ventilation opening. After some use, one part of the ventilation grid snapped off, and fell in the opening. It is now rattling in there. So he went to the garage to ask if they can take it out...
      "Euhm, ... that would require removing the entire dashboard... about a day's work"

      Can you imagine? As if nothing could ever fall into a ventilation opening!

      Mercedes A Class.
      Again, a friend of mine had to replace the lightbulb of a headlight; he went to the garage to ask if they could do it while he waits...
      "Euhm... Changing a lightbulb requries removing the front bumper, so it will take some time"


      Volkswagen Polo.
      The thermometer of my airconditioning was broke (it started blowing hot and cold at random). How long will it take to fix?
      "Well, we need to remove the entire dashboard to gain access to it... Probabely a day or so..."

      The good thing: there was something rattling in my dashboard, which isn't the case now...

      Also (in my car): Why haven't they put a light in the trunk? In the interior, there are almost a dozen of lights (2x ceiling, 2x make-up, 4x reading lights, 1x glove compartement, 1x ashtray, 2x in the door, ...). Yet in the trunk (which can be dark with the boot open) there isn't any...


      Jörg
      Last edited by VJ; 22 June 2005, 02:46.
      pixar
      Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by VJ
        Some other examples of fine engineering:
        Mercedes A Class.
        Again, a friend of mine had to replace the lightbulb of a headlight; he went to the garage to ask if they could do it while he waits...
        "Euhm... Changing a lightbulb requries removing the front bumper, so it will take some time"
        maybe he should change the garage, that's a three minute task. You can access the headlights very easy from the wheelhouse. Done that for myself two or three times already.


        R.
        "Women don't want to hear a man's opinion, they just want to hear their opinion in a deeper voice."

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        • #5
          Can you imagine? As if nothing could ever fall into a ventilation opening!
          Like what? Gota be pretty skilled to do that, I reckon

          and seriously, no light in your trunk? I find that very odd. It's like the LG Dishwasher we have here...no light bulb on the inside too

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          • #6
            Rakido: hmm.. even worse.... such behaviour from a Merc dealer...

            Guchi: nope, no light... *very* annoying...


            Jörg
            pixar
            Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow. (James Dean)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rakido
              maybe he should change the garage, that's a three minute task. You can access the headlights very easy from the wheelhouse. Done that for myself two or three times already.


              R.
              Ayup. I was going to say that you can either get at it from the engine bay (admittedly by reaching iiiiiiiin and under) or from the wheel well, depending on the model.

              As for Jon's original topic - many cars are poorly designed. What model is yours, exactly? There's a reason that I moved far far away from American cars long ago. My bimmer has a separate coil for each cylinder... right on top, under the plastic "BMW" shield. Two bolts to remove the shield, two more to remove the coil, there you go. Plus they almost NEVER die anyway. The ignition module is in a nice, easy-to-get-to compartment. Good thing, too - because the plastic ducting that shunts water from the windshield to the ground cracks with age, letting water into that compartment... so if it weren't easy to get to, it'd be a REAL pain to get in there and ... *ahem* modify it for easier drainage.

              Julie's Volvo has a very similar setup. Coils right up on top, module tucked off to the side. Everything easy to get to.

              I'm not saying there aren't pain in the ass engineering choices made for all cars, but I think that it's MUCH less frustrating to work on one of these European models.
              Last edited by Gurm; 22 June 2005, 06:43.
              The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

              I'm the least you could do
              If only life were as easy as you
              I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
              If only life were as easy as you
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              • #8
                Originally posted by VJ
                Rakido: hmm.. even worse.... such behaviour from a Merc dealer...
                that explains it

                seriously, i guess in many cases the garages (at least the official mercedes or volkswagen or audi or ..... ones) tell you such nonsense, they want to earn the money and Joe Average just believes it. I was at a official Mercedes garage first for the inspections but switched later to a independent one and a) they needed less time and b) they were way cheaper.


                R.
                "Women don't want to hear a man's opinion, they just want to hear their opinion in a deeper voice."

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                • #9
                  Reminds me of a '73 Mustang V6 a friend of mine had. They had the thermostat mounted on its side in a flange molded into the engine block with covers & hoses on either side.

                  Damned thermostat clogged with grit & stuck open about every 3 months like clockwork, which because it was a bypass cooling system meant the engine would overheat immediately

                  Making matters worse was that it was buried under the emissions pump and other such hardware. Guess who got to help with the surgery?

                  Dr. Mordrid
                  Dr. Mordrid
                  ----------------------------
                  An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                  I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                  • #10
                    About 1960, a friend had a Jag type E. He had a 6 month mission abroad, and he did not simply want it to sit doing nothing for all that length of time, so he lent it to me, on condition that I looked after it correctly. Oh, Joy! I was over the moon - I had an E-type, in British Racing Green and it was costing me nothing other than the fuel and the maintenance. Anyway, it came time for a small service (change oil etc.) and, true to my promise, I trundled it along to the Jag Service Garage. I went back a couple of days later and nearly had apoplexy when presented with the bill. It was over £100, which was about a month's salary at that time, possibly equivalent today to £2000 or $3000. When I asked why, I was told that a) they had to drop the engine to change the oil filters, b) they had to drop the backaxle off the suspension to put oil into the differential and c) they had to remove the gearbox off the clutch housing to check the oil level.

                    Anyway, after that, I used the car just a minimal time to fulfil my promise and certainly not enough to take it to the next service (a big one). I checked with the owner when he got back and he said that he was aware that servicing it was very expensive (understatement of the year!).
                    Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                    • #11
                      The ignition module in the Ford/Mercury Taurus/Sable line dies so regularly that FoMoCo had to settle a class action suit filed against it by Taurus/Sable owners going all the way back to the early '80s. I've replaced the modules on my two cars so frequently I've lost count. Latest was just a couple of weeks ago. Those things are damned expensive for their size. Fortunately I had a spare lying around.

                      When these go its like someone threw a switch. Suddenly no spark at all. I've gotten to recognize the failure instantly and this time I had the beast up and running again in under an hour, and that's including the time spent walking home more than a mile!

                      Kevin

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                      • #12
                        FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily (aka: Found On the Road Dead)

                        Dr. Mordrid
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                        • #13
                          I once owned an Oldsmobile Cutlass Cruiser, 1986 or 1987, I can't recall which - it was whichever year they switched over to electronic modules instead of boring old things like distributors and whatnot.

                          The ignition control module failed... but in a way that made it hard to diagnose. It was running rough. That's it. And it ate THREE alternators before anyone figured out that the ICM was actually overloading the alternator. ARGH.
                          The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                          I'm the least you could do
                          If only life were as easy as you
                          I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                          If only life were as easy as you
                          I would still get screwed

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                          • #14
                            But that's okay.. the $3500 hydraulics kit still worked eh, homes?

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                            • #15
                              The car's an '87 Cavalier. From what I could see checking up on the newsgroups the 6 cylinder engine was even worse, the coils and module were near an exhaust manifold which had the prediciable effect of cooking the ignition system while also making it a bitch to replace.

                              A while back the belt tensioner broke suddenly while driving, that was a fun one too. It's integrated into a large bracket that holds both the power steering pump and the alternator, requiring both to be moved out of position to get the bracket out. While pulling the steering pump out we discover a small bolt on the back of the pump that appeared to be designed solely to make it as difficult to remove as possible. An intake manifold coolant hose was routed directly over this bolt and even with a ratcheting box-end wrench it was almost impossible to remove since the bolt was long enough to move into contact with the hose before it was completely out. After getting the tensioner bracket replaced we said screw it and just left that bolt off, we couldn't get it back in without removing the hose and it's function seemed dubious anyway: the pump sat in a little mounting bracket pretty securely and there were three large bolts in a triangular pattern on the front where it attached to the tensioner bracket.

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