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  • EU bad for democracy?

    How about some European comments on this article by Dick Morris, Bill Clintons former campaign advisor?

    IN EUROPE: DEMOCRACY BEATS BUREAUCRACY

    June 1, 2005 -- The French rejection of the European Union's new proposed constitution represents democracy's most outspoken rejection of freedom's worst enemy in the world today: bureaucratism. The true successor to fascism and communism, bureaucratism is the belief of economic, social, intellectual, and cultural elites that they know better than we do what is good for us. It holds Japan in its iron grip -- and has for more than a century. It dominates multi-national organizations like the World Trade Organization, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and the United Nations. And it micro-managed every aspect of life in Europe through reams of regulations from the European Union's Brussels headquarters.

    Now, the voters of France have said no, halting the bureaucratic power grab in its tracks. The non goes farther than a mere rejection of the Constitution. It is a rejection of government by a self-appointed bureaucracy that sees no particular need to respect the decisions of the people -- and, in fact sees a positive social merit in ignoring them.

    Every major political party in France supported the Constitution as did President Jacques Chirac. All newspapers backed it. The entire civic structure of the country urged a yes vote as did almost all the prominent politicians and writers. But the people overwhelmingly voted non.

    The revealed disjuncture between the powerful elites and the voters runs deeply through each aspect of modern European life. Seventy percent of the laws passed by the British Parliament, for example, are merely ratifications of regulations promulgated in Brussels.

    Democracy is so feeble in the European Union that elected members of the European Parliament cannot introduce legislation. They must confine their function to approving or disapproving the recommendations of the bureaucracy. They can't even amend them significantly. The elected members are kept on a short leash, pacified by large salaries and per diem allowances for each day they show up at Parliament.

    Continental European elites, never fully comfortable with democracy since witnessing its ravages in the beer halls of Munich and the streets of Paris, have embraced a "father knows best" approach to governing their irascible herds. Lacking any tradition of checks and balances in their parliamentary systems, they grant bureaucrats who have not been elected the same scope of authority they give prime ministers in their national political systems.

    The reaction of the French elites to the voter rejection of the constitution is to blame Chirac for being stupid enough to have asked them in the first place. In his defense, he didn't want to. Incredibly, the powers that run the EU had given member states the right to approve the new Constitution either through parliamentary ratification of voter referendum. Germany opted not even to ask its people. Britain and France did the same. Then the United Kingdom Independence Party -- which opposes the European Union -- scored an amazing upset in the June 10, 2005 European Parliamentary elections, capturing 17% of the seats, an amazing vote for a minor party.

    Stunned by the British vote, Prime Minister Tony Blair announced that he would submit the constitution to a referendum rather than just pass it through his parliament (a rubber stamp approval in a parliamentary system). After Blair gave in to the forces of democracy, Chirac felt that he had no choice but to follow and the defeat of the document at the polls was the result.

    The European Union is really a conscious effort by socialists in France and Germany to promote their social and economic agenda across an entire Continent, it having proven unworkable in just one country. After Mitterrand tried to nationalize industries in France and succeeded only in driving out capital to Britain and the United States, the Continental socialists realized that it was only through European-wide regulation that they could succeed. Socialism -- government ownership -- is no longer their agenda. But government regulation of each aspect of economic and social life has taken its place. And the European Constitution was an effort to extend bureaucratic domination to foreign and defense policy as well.

    Like water, democracy finds its own level. It forces its way through the cracks until it is heard. The real answer for Europe is not to abandon the continental project but to make it democratic. Plant and grow the tree -- the democratic superstructure of a state -- before it you hang ornaments, like economic and social regulations, on it. Bureaucratic regulation is only sustainable when it has a democratic core and when citizens have recourse to elected officials to mediate the abuses of the bureaucrats. Europe has neither and it needs both.
    Dr. Mordrid
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Well, a quick read-through reveals, for me, a load of half-truths, mixed in with a few gems and a plethora of downright misconceptions.

    I haven't time to go into details, but let it be made very clear that:
    a) France and Italy (and some others) have right-wing regimes. The UK has a so-called left-wing party in power, but it is really quite right of centre. Even Germany's Social Democrats are middle-of-the-road. It is therefore fallacious to pretend that the EU has a socialist agenda. Social, yes; socialist, definitely not.

    b) The reasons for France (farm subsidies) and the Netherlands (immigration) voting no are entirely different. The UK, if it does hold its referendum (which would be stupid), will vote no, for a third reason (security and desire for independence). It is therefore impossible to categorise the causes as this or that. Each country has its own problems.

    c) I agree that technocracy and bureaucracy are major problems, but the UK, for ex., excels in a bureaucracy worse than the EU's.

    d) I'm slightly resentful of a rather stupid criticism from someone in a country suffering from exactly the problem that he ascribes to the EU. Let he that is without sin...
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

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    • #3
      The UK, if it does hold its referendum (which would be stupid), will vote no
      A little clarification, please. Why would holding a referendum be stupid other than because the EU constitution would be rejected?

      IMHO a treaty this sweeping, remaking the entire political structure of western Europe as it does, should ONLY be approved through referendum. If it fails passage then it's because of its inherent weaknesses which are plenty. I've tried several times to read the European Constitution and have failed to get very far or make sense of it. Its a muddled mess.

      Again IMHO the more basic and easy to understand a constitution is, the better (contrast the US constitution's 4500+ words to the EU constitution's 40,000+ words). That's just over the top. If that level of complexity is required for a European Union, then maybe the Europeans are better off without it.

      Kevin

      Comment


      • #4
        Deutschland vor!! Noch ein Tor!!!

        oops...a bit early......

        ignore me!

        Comment


        • #5
          I would go with Sasq here - Juu nin too iro.

          Think of countries/societies as ecosystems which are all balanced, but quite different. Introducing one thing from one ecosystem into another would disrupt balance on the other hand. Or if you want soccer analogy - Brazil, Germany and England play very different style of soccer, but they are all very succesful. I don't think Germans would be able to play Brazilian style and vice versa...

          Such threads are IMHO beneficial since we can at least understand each other's positions and countries more, for instance I learned a lot about USA politics and I can now say I understand it better.

          Now on to so called European "socialism" - most of people here are for it in one form or another. The only difference is to what extent, in what way. The right parties want to selectively cut some areas in order to improve competitivness. Even so called far right parties are embracing some principles that you consider entirely left such as ecology and they are not against social state per se. For instance Haider who is considered far right in Austria is more ecological than your Democrates.

          For instance it is always said that USA is a lot more productive but research has established that western Europe is just as productive per hour, they only work less (different values, costs of living, etc...)

          Just like our system might be unthinkable to you your system and high support for Republicans there is unthinkable to us.


          Now on to EU. There's a core original EU countries - Benelux, France, Germany who are generally for tighter integration, they want common foreign politics, common military more authority to EU. They were generally sceptical about expansion as it would cause problems wrt to decision making. UK is generally historically affraid of strong continental power, which just happens to be EU. Scandinavia is generally sceptical about EU and the new EU members are still in the honeymoon period about EU. The main reason for expansion was that including other countries would expand stability and it would turn them to EU instead of USA or Russia.

          I understand that US states used to have more souvereignity and they still retain decisions over some issues but as tight integration as in USA in Europe is not possible. On the other hand as EU becomes larger unanimous vote and country vetos cannot provide for decision making.

          The constitution itself can be found here. I have discussed it a lot with my friends, some of which are good lawyers. We generally came to agree it has its benefits.

          The people that turned down constitution have in most cases never read it are mostly not qualified to judge constitution legally. They voted on their goverments, which generally have low support (this is normal in democratic countries, very high support for bush after 9/11 was exception due to circumstances). Majority of people is not interested in EU, turnout on EU parliament elections is low, people don't strive to inform themselves on EU.

          Why Germany didn't choose a referendum. If you know history, you should know that Hitler seized Fürher authority (president and prime minister in one person) through referendum. They don't have legal provisions for referendum and president is not popularly elected but instead elected by parliament due to their history. President there also has very little authority through constitution (you may have heard of Schröder but have you heard of Horst Kohler).

          This is interpreted by majority as a sign that further discussion is needed and that we should decide what we want the EU to be.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm too tired to read the whole article. I can comment on the French part though

            The main reason for the French "no" is that many people thought they voted against the current government. Some more people beleived what communists said about the EU constitution being totaly capitalistic and that it would ruin employement. So people here where actually mad at the government or afraid of the EU constitution.
            You could see in the streets many people giving away papers urging you to vote "no" but there where very few for the "yes".
            System : ASUS A8N SLI premium, Athlon 64X2 3800+, 2Gb, T7K500 320Gb SATAII, T7K250 250Gb SATAII, T7K250 250Gb ATA133, Nec ND-3520, Plextor PX130A, SB Audigy 2, Sapphire Radeon X800 GTO, 24" Dell 2407WFP.

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            • #7
              I'll think they'll try and sneak the constition through the back door. Chirac certainly is having difficulties dealing with the no vote.
              I see Blair has also dropped the vote. So he's still looking for his glory which is worrying.
              Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
              Weather nut and sad git.

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              • #8
                For instance Haider who is considered far right in Austria is more ecological than your Democrates.
                Haider is pro-anything if it gets him some additional votes.

                mfg
                wulfman
                "Perhaps they communicate by changing colour? Like those sea creatures .."
                "Lobsters?"
                "Really? I didn't know they did that."
                "Oh yes, red means help!"

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                • #9
                  I understand that US states used to have more souvereignity and they still retain decisions over some issues but as tight integration as in USA in Europe is not possible.
                  1. "used to have"? I'll have you know that the VAST majority of authority in the US resides with the states and not the federal government.

                  Commit a crime? 99.9% of the time it's under State or local law. Get a married or divorced? State law. Taxes? Most are local or State. Liscense your car or get a drivers liscense? State again. etc. etc. etc.

                  2. The regional differences between US states can be as dramatic, or even more so, than those between European nations even if you take language into account.

                  Hell...I've been in a few US states (Louisianas 'cajun country for example) where I couldn't understand more than 5 words in a 10 minute span. Damned French again

                  Then you have cultural differences like those beween cities. Drop someone from LA into suburban Detroit and watch the fun

                  Dr. Mordrid
                  Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 5 June 2005, 14:33.
                  Dr. Mordrid
                  ----------------------------
                  An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                  I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have problem understanding people from south west slovenia and it's only 100km away .

                    Wulfman konna i erzehln üba Ostarreicischa dialektn :P People from Austria speak and write something like that online .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                      1. "used to have"? I'll have you know that the VAST majority of authority in the US resides with the states and not the federal government.

                      Commit a crime? 99.9% of the time it's under State or local law. Get a married or divorced? State law. Taxes? Most are local or State. Liscense your car or get a drivers liscense? State again. etc. etc. etc.
                      Bwahaha.

                      Pass a law the feds disagree with? Lose all road funding. Legalize a drug the feds oppose? They send in the DEA. Patriot act. Intellectual property law. Bankruptcy law. No child left behind. States only appear to have power because they're generally "in line" with federal wishes.

                      Marriage/divorce/licensing: reciprocity is mandated. If you get a license in state X, which meets the standards of state Y, state Y is required to recognize it. Also, the national ID card act has just passed, mandating what a license has to have on it.

                      Taxes? Federal law has fewer types of taxes, but they're much more significant. My federal income tax adds up to a couple times more than all other taxes I pay combined. That doesn't even count the FICA or other money pits.
                      Gigabyte P35-DS3L with a Q6600, 2GB Kingston HyperX (after *3* bad pairs of Crucial Ballistix 1066), Galaxy 8800GT 512MB, SB X-Fi, some drives, and a Dell 2005fpw. Running WinXP.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Under the Constitution anything that affects interstate commerce is Federal authority, so drug policy, regulation of interstate and international businesses, laws that affect treaties, laws/rules that affect interstate highways etc. are their jurisdiction. Even marriage laws can be construed as such because people do move their families across state lines.

                        As for tax levels; tell that to those people living in Califlakey or any of the states in New England....particularly NY or Massachusettes (aka: TAXachusettes). Combine their state and local taxes and even FICA seems like a bargain

                        Dr. Mordrid
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KRSESQ
                          A little clarification, please. Why would holding a referendum be stupid other than because the EU constitution would be rejected?
                          The new constitution has been rejected by two countries, therefore it is already null and void, as it stands. This should be accepted without any attempt at weaseling it through with any further ratification attempts. It should go straight back to the drawing board and not wait for future ratifications or refusals, before any new round of ratifications is attempted.

                          What I'm opposed to the most is the fact that many countries have/will ratify it by a government (not even necessarily parliamentary) decision, with no reference to the people (and many governments are so out of touch with the people). This is not democratic for so important an issue. IMHO, constitutional changes should be ratified ONLY by a simultaneous EU-wide referendum requiring an overall 2/3 majority of voters AND a majority of countries in favour.
                          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                          • #14
                            IF Europe is really serious about this I'd suggest a Constitutional Convention.

                            ALL delegates would be elected by their populace and apportioned not by population but 2 per nation. This way, like in our Senate, no large population state can dominate the smaller ones.

                            The first order of business should be something akin to our "Bill of Rights"; a document that strictly constrains the power of the State and defines the freedoms of speech, association, religion, assembly, legal representation, a free press, the separation of powers (legislative, judiciary and administrative branches) etc. etc.

                            Any document would have to be approved by a 2/3 vote of the convention first, then by the national assemblies and finally by the populace of each nation. That way nobody has a bitch that they were somehow "not represented".

                            If this cannot be pulled off then perhaps it's better for them to remain separate nations with their own priorities.

                            Dr. Mordrid
                            Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 6 June 2005, 00:59.
                            Dr. Mordrid
                            ----------------------------
                            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              EU is moving towards a sort of US state at its own pace. It took forever for the US to become what is is. EU is only halfway, it will take some more time...

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