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An ugly face of ecology

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  • An ugly face of ecology



    Are wind farms really the answer?
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

  • #2
    Wind farms are part of the answer, our friend Tony has said they 'may' investigate the nuclear option again, solar is too expensive and does not produce enought power yet.

    When out lights start going out in the evenings and fuel is £5 a litre people will stop moaning about turbines and the like.

    Breezer
    Everything I say is true apart from that which is not

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    • #3
      "Your" friend Tony (he's not one of my friends, as I don't count anyone with blood on his hands as one) is lagging behind his lord and master, George, who now considers nukes as ± mandatory. All wind farms can do is to reduce the consumption of nuclear fuel, not replace it (you still need full capacity in conventional, for when the wind doesn't blow).

      As nuclear fuel is now being recycled to 96% with the EPR and other MOX reactors, there are many who say that adding wind or solar is simply not worth it, just to save $29/kg on uranium, just to provide 20% extra power, at peak consumption times, only when the wind is blowing between 16 and 20 m/s. In the UK, this is for a very small percentage of the time. The most favourable site in the UK is offshore along the north coast of Scotland and even there, wind turbines will generate an average of only ~16% of their rated capacity.

      The logical thing is to reduce electricity consumption, as has been discussed on another forum.
      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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      • #4
        Whatever happened to wave power?

        Britain is an island with some pretty rough seas and the tidal ranges in places like the Severn Estuary have a tidal range of around 12m every 6 hours or so. That much water moving around has got to be useful for something.
        Athlon XP-64/3200, 1gb PC3200, 512mb Radeon X1950Pro AGP, Dell 2005fwp, Logitech G5, IBM model M.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RichL
          Whatever happened to wave power?
          One quick Google later :

          Tidal Power : http://www.darvill.clara.net/altenerg/tidal.htm

          Power from water currents : http://www.marineturbines.com/technical.htm

          Wave Power : http://www.wavegen.co.uk/

          Tidal power in the boom/dam example given has significant ecological implications, but wave power and water current power look a lot more promising.

          As an island nation, IMHO we in the UK ought to be agressively pursuing these technologies.
          Of course, green energy and saving the planet all comes down to money.
          Athlon XP-64/3200, 1gb PC3200, 512mb Radeon X1950Pro AGP, Dell 2005fwp, Logitech G5, IBM model M.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Brian Ellis
            Wind farms kill birds.
            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TransformX
              Wind farms kill birds.
              Wasn't this exagerrated problem?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TransformX
                Wind farms kill birds.
                Combustion emissions kill everything, it's just less obvious.
                Gigabyte P35-DS3L with a Q6600, 2GB Kingston HyperX (after *3* bad pairs of Crucial Ballistix 1066), Galaxy 8800GT 512MB, SB X-Fi, some drives, and a Dell 2005fpw. Running WinXP.

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                • #9
                  Well.

                  Correctly placed windpower is surely the most economic way of creating sustainable energy (remember, nuclear aint sustainable).

                  Im slightly connected to a small danish producer of windmills called bonus Brande (now Siemens Windpower).
                  In the last 10 years they have erected 3286.03 MW of windpower. Thats hardly insignificant, and our firm is the smaller player (NEC/MICON).

                  I DO think that landbased parks have their limitations.
                  Windmills are ugly, noisy and they produce a lot of unfortunate light/shadow nuisance.

                  But off shore windmill parks, with mills around the 2-3 MW size is the way to go.

                  ~~DukeP~~

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DukeP

                    But off shore windmill parks, with mills around the 2-3 MW size is the way to go.
                    They are talking about putting them out off the Coast of where I live at...not sure were its going, but I dont think it would be an eyesore...be pretty cool looking.
                    Why is it called tourist season, if we can't shoot at them?

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                    • #11
                      If placed in open water I think windmills actually gives a dimension to the distance (and they are great to navigate by when sailing).

                      Furthermore (and thats where I get involved) when properbly constructed the base of seabased mills can offer great refuges for the marine wildlife.

                      ~~DukeP~~

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nowhere
                        Wasn't this exagerrated problem?
                        No, definitely not. Any birds that are the size of a partridge or more is at risk. Many raptors have been killed in California. BirdLife International are very aware of the problem and oppose any proposals for the installation of wind farms where protected birds are known to pass or, above all, nest. They do not oppose other installations where there is almost no risk for rare and protected species.

                        The swept circumference of a 5 MW turbine is over 300 m. In a 20 m/s wind, the rotation is about 30 rpm so the tip of a blade goes along at 300 x 30 x 60 / 1000 = 540 km/h = 340 mph. There is no way any living thing can avoid being clonked on the head if they happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong moment. Unfortunately, many migrating species fly at 100 - 200 m altitude over ground level, which is just nicely in the swept area. I live under the flight path of some species (various waders, including flamingos, as well as some smaller birds of sizes ranging from wheatears, swallows and buntings to Scops owls, various eagles and even the occasional Egyptian vulture). The larger ones are low enough that I can hear the wingbeats and their cries. I'm sure they would not appreciate some whacking great windmills in their flight path!
                        Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DukeP
                          Well.

                          Correctly placed windpower is surely the most economic way of creating sustainable energy (remember, nuclear aint sustainable).
                          Unfortunately, you cannot sustain wind power, either, when you run out of the energy source, on a calm day. Unfortunately, this can happen, in anticyclonic conditions, over several days, 2-3 times per year. Then what?

                          Also, no grid system can sustain generation of peak consumption exceeding 18-20%, as you well know in Denmark, from experience.

                          Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to wind farms per se, but it must be realised that they have their limitations, one of which is the 20% peak limit and another is that they have to have peak power backup with non-variable sources if you wish to avoid grid overloading and some of this has to be running idle so that it can be switched in within a couple of minutes.
                          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                          • #14
                            Than it shouldn't be that hard to use something to scare them off?

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                            • #15
                              Well. In Denmark we cheat.

                              We are coupled with the rest of the european powergrid, so we can easily offhand any surplus power.

                              We are soo lucky that we can depend on the waterpower from Sweeden and Norway. Generally theres either a surplus of water in the reservoirs OR plenty of wind around.

                              That aside, we do generate a lot of power in our modern heat/energy powerplants (efficency ~97%). They use biofuel, ie fuel that is generated by our farmers.

                              Several of our islands have allready been converted to selfsufficiency, using biofuel, windmills and solar heating (I think we have a couple of the worlds largest solarpowerplants??).

                              ~~DukeP~~

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