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  • Human behaviour

    I've been reading a book on ethology and its extension from animal to human life. The author makes a case for territorial defense in many species. Whether one's individual territory or collective territory is invaded, it requires enormous force for the owner to be evicted. With many animal species from invertebrates to the highest mammals, the owner almost invariably beats the intruder into submission, all other things being equal.

    This book was written in the 1960s and the US author quotes similar behaviour to animals in quite a number of incidents in WWII. I won't catalogue them all, but there are numerous animals living in collectivities which, when a "foreign" alpha male tries to take over a herd, he usually fails 90% of the time. If he does succeed, he may impregnate some of the females (new gene stock), but he is usually not accepted and is often driven away by the younger males in a concerted effort. He drew a parallel with this in the way that countries like Norway, Netherlands, Yugoslavia and, above all France organised a resistance to the German invader in the defense of their territory. The faster a collapse of a country, the stronger was the resistance.

    Another problem that he evoked was that, theoretically, Germany should have walked over Russia and Russia should have walked over Finland, but a long, fierce, defence of a territory will almost always result in defeat of the invader, no matter how strong his superior power.

    OK, the terminology is different, but the war-time Resistance in France and elsewhere caused Germany to deploy more resources than should have been necessary, which weakened the invader's ability to attack/defend elsewhere, so defeat, in the long term, becomes almost inevitable. Draw a parallel with this in Iraq: insurgents = Resistance/help for the Resistance was provided by the Allies and help for the insurgents is provided by other countries allied to the cause. Only the names change.

    Another point that the author brings up is that major attacks occur most where complacency is rife: the invasion of Czechoslovakia after Munich and Pearl Harbor and he shows that when some animal species become complacent (e.g., plenty of food and no territorial aggression by neighbouring animals), they are more likely to become much more aggressive in the event of a sudden attack and even the females of a herd will defend the attack. He cites Pearl Harbor, in particular, as a human example of a nation suddenly waking up to become aggressive from a very complacent mood, almost overnight. Compre this with 11 September.

    I'm not citing this for it to become Temp forum material but as something to discuss as to whether we can closely parallel the behaviour pattern into the innate behaviour of homo sapiens when stress is applied, either as the invader or the invaded. If so, can we draw any conclusions? Note that ethology is not an exact science and there are always exceptions to the rules, so don't, please, quote the exceptions to "prove" it is bullshit - let's just look at the generalities. Any thoughts?
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

  • #2
    Speaking in generalities, how does intent of the invader factor in? I'm referring to the fact that the Americans don't want to stay in Iraq, at least not as an occupying military force.
    P.S. You've been Spanked!

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    • #3
      Hehe, we know now that our "fierce resistance" was far from what it was portraid to be. Although it did pick up a bit after Operation Barbarossa took off (thx commies). And then, the claim that Germany should have walked over russia is dubious IMO. Certainly, Germany made some grave errors, but so did the ruskies, so that may well have evened out.

      Anyway, wrt to the comparison of these cases to Iraq, one notable difference IMO is that it is a clear and stated objective to move out at some point in the not to distant future. The challenge therefore IMO is not to simply surpress resistancem which is hard, but also to bleed it dry of sympathy. Not sure they'll make it, but they have a chance I'd say.

      With humans, I'm not sure that complacency leads to agression and, I'm sorry, I feel most examples are not in favor of that hypothesis. Pearl harbor and 9/11 caused a violent reaction by a country that might have been complacent, but the aggression came from outside I guess. The point being that the reaction would probably be similar had the country not been complacent Germany was by no means having plenty of food and other produce. In fact, the re-militarisation of the Rhineland was in fact done to distract attention from the poor economic state of affairs. Czech similarly.

      Finally, the 90% fail ratio seems to high to me in the human case. Many countries today are the result of prior conquest to a more or lesser content. That to conquer one needs far more than a 1 on 1 ratio of force has been known for a long time and attackers typically would take that into account.

      I hope this meets your idea of any thoughts.
      Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
      [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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      • #4
        The 90% failure rate is applied to animals where contenders are more or less equal. Obviously, this can be biased in cases of humans by the sophistication of weaponry and sheer numbers (with animals, the herds are usually ± the same size and have the same God-given weapons).

        In the case of Iraq, I don't think a declaration of temporary occupation would hold any water: an Iraqi sees a coalition soldier (or newspaper reporter) and equates his origin with the person who killed his cousin or grandmother. He therefore joins the Resistance in an attempt to make the occupation even more temporary.

        In these cases of comparing animal ethology, one must assume the aggression always comes from outside. On a much smaller scale, if someone invaded your house to pinch your DVD player or jewellery, you would naturally confront him with adrenaline running at max output in order to cause him to flee before any damage is done. His adrenaline would already be at a lower level as it would have started running when he started to approach your house and would be at a much lower level than yours. There is therefore a physiological explanation of why the 90% "rule" could apply.
        Brian (the devil incarnate)

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        • #5
          I assume, but have not read the book, that in the animal case, it's mostly a one-on-one fight? Humans will either try to sneak-attack or use larger numbers (or tech) because we *realise* that in a one-on-one, the best we could hope for is 50% (well sorta, you get the idea).

          Wrt Iraq, I agree that there will always be resistance, To "win" it does not need to be quenched entirely however. "All" that is needed is to have a movement, the government, to be able to impose rule of law when the US is gone. What I mean to say is that the comparison is weak _because_ of the different objective.

          I don't understand the last part. I understood part of the hypothesis to be that herds being complacent (and therefore growing in size as well) would become aggressive towards neighboring herds?
          Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
          [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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          • #6
            Sorry, didn't male myself clear. No, I was trying to say that if a herd becomes complacent, they are much more open to attack, and having been attacked, they over-react to develop excessive aggresivity.
            Brian (the devil incarnate)

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            • #7
              No, I misread, sry. I'll think about it, but I think I disagree.
              Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
              [...]the pervading principle and abiding test of good breeding is the requirement of a substantial and patent waste of time. - Veblen

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