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az
21st November 2004, 06:42
Sparked by recent events (http://www.murc.ws/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50847), I'll open this contest. Prove to me that Firefox is a better browser than Opera (And I'll try to disprove your claims by showing you can do exactly that, but better, in Opera - which will not happen every time, of course) :)

Write about your favourite FF/IE/Moz/Safari/Konqeror/iCab/IE extension feature here, I'm curious :)

(Ahem... I know FF can do ad blocking and flash blocking, but I don't need that. I don't like popups, but I have no problem with ads per se - some sites only survive because of them, and as long as they aren't flashing in wild colors all over the place, then that's no problem for me. If they are, I won't visit that site.)

AZ

Sasq
21st November 2004, 07:00
step one.
Az downloads FF and installs it.
Then comes back and asks how to make it do all the things he wants

isochar
21st November 2004, 07:22
step two.
... and then discovers all the things he didn't know he wanted. ;)

az
21st November 2004, 07:37
Why would I want to do that Sasq? Opera does all the things I want it to do. Besides, I really don't have the nerve to install a browser, then look for extensions to add functionality I already have, AND learn all the new keyboard shortcuts (or reconfigure everything).

AZ

Sasq
21st November 2004, 07:43
install, no reg stuff, tools, extentions-> find new extentions. end of hassel.
try it, or I do change your title to fanboy :p

VJ
21st November 2004, 07:43
Lynx:
1. It supports native text only support (thus less transfers, thus faster). :p
2. Lynx allows for much faster browsing using the keyboard (right arrow=follow link, left arrow=back, up/down arrows=walk through links on the page, g=enter url, v=view bookmarks, ...). :ermm:
3. I can run lynx from a text only SSH terminal. :p
4. I can use cron to have lynx dump content to a file (i.e. to schedule it so that it starts downloading a large file at a given time, unattended ! :p
5. No risk of malicious java scripts or annoying pop-ups
6. Coolness factor is way way way better than any music-related named browser.


Jörg

Jessterw
21st November 2004, 07:55
Firefox. It just looks better on the Mac :D

az
21st November 2004, 07:56
1.: Possible and better with Opera. Just disable loading of images. These text-only pages can be styled all you want, with custom stylesheets. You can even make it look like on the C64. And you can still zoom.

2.: Possible and better with Opera: Either use spatial navigation (shift+arrow to navigate links not only on a prev-next basis, but on the 2-dimensional plane (the page itself)), or use q and a, enter to follow link (combine with shift to open in new tab, control shift to open in background tab), F8 to focus address field (or F2 to show an "enter address" window when you prefer not to have the address field shown). Keys can of course be changed.

I'll give you 3 and 4 ;)

5.: You can disable Javascript, Java, and PlugIns with F12 and one click each.

6.: No :p

AZ

EDIT: This was directed towards Jörg :)

az
21st November 2004, 07:56
JW: That is hardly an argument. And you know I have no mac so I can't disprove your claim ;)

AZ

Sasq
21st November 2004, 08:04
see title Az.
try browser then comment. :p

William
21st November 2004, 08:05
Firefox can do Motorola's site.

Jessterw
21st November 2004, 08:05
Oh I know, I don't really have any arguments either way. I just use Firefox because it works for me. By the way, I was once a paid user of Opera and I was quite happy with it at the time.

My personal opinion on the matter is that each browser fits a particular way of browsing.

VJ
21st November 2004, 08:16
Az:

Originally posted by az
1.: Possible and better with Opera. Just disable loading of images. These text-only pages can be styled all you want, with custom stylesheets. You can even make it look like on the C64. And you can still zoom.

1. Not a valid alternative on some displays. I just want *native* text mode.



2.: Possible and better with Opera: Either use spatial navigation (shift+arrow to navigate links not only on a prev-next basis, but on the 2-dimensional plane (the page itself)), or use q and a, enter to follow link (combine with shift to open in new tab, control shift to open in background tab), F8 to focus address field (or F2 to show an "enter address" window when you prefer not to have the address field shown). Keys can of course be changed.

Pff, fidling around with shift, function keys, ... Using the cursor is much more intuitive. Scrolling is also not an issue when browsing in text mode in lynx.



I'll give you 3 and 4 ;)

It is a start...



5.: You can disable Javascript, Java, and PlugIns with F12 and one click each.

Yes, but you often see traces of missing stuff on the page. I know it is missing, I needn't be reminded of it. :)



6.: No :p

Just browse in a public place with Opera. People will know you are browsing, but they won't see much difference.
Now do the same with lynx: you have a text mode interface in which you can navigate without a mouse, people really wonder what you are looking at. How's that for cool ? :)

Or what about Konquerer?
It can actually perform spellingchecking in the browserinterface, for instance to spellcheck the messages you type on a forum!

:D @ the title


Jörg

Jammrock
21st November 2004, 08:16
I like Opera because all the cool kids use it :p You FireFox guys are just weenies being herded like cattle to use FireFox because CNN did a spot on it.

agallag
21st November 2004, 08:20
Here's something I like in Avant Browser (an IE extension) that I can't figure out how to do in FireFox.

Reordering of tabs. Say I have my webmail open in one of my tabs. I like having that as my first tab, so I always know where it is. In AB, I just click and drag the tab to it's new location. I can't find a way to do that in FF.

Can you do this in Opera?

Sasq
21st November 2004, 08:21
Browser extentions used to do it in FF, there is an extention now that does it, just don't ask me the name of it while i am drunk :p

RC Agent
21st November 2004, 08:49
Isn't Firefox for FREE? And Opera is FREE but with ads? You have to BUY Opera to make the ads go away. No?

RC Agent
21st November 2004, 08:50
Originally posted by William
Firefox can do Motorola's site. Can Opera do this??? :p

agallag
21st November 2004, 09:02
Originally posted by Sasq
Browser extentions used to do it in FF, there is an extention now that does it, just don't ask me the name of it while i am drunk :p

Once you sober up a bit, could ya look it up for me? :D

William
21st November 2004, 09:04
Originally posted by RC Agent
Can Opera do this??? :p

Nope; that's how I come to know that Firefox can.

Sasq
21st November 2004, 09:05
just talking about it with Jesterzwild, the guy that did tabed browser extentions went awol. not sure if its usable now or planned in the tabbed browser extentions replacements, see what i can find in the morning. I still use an older version of FF on my win pc, that has it installed. is a goodly feature

VJ
21st November 2004, 09:07
Firefox can display the full menu of www.dpreview.com, Opera can't display the animated submenus that appear onmouseover.

(Even IE can display this menu :bandit: )


Jörg

UtwigMU
21st November 2004, 09:21
miniT adds just tab reordering without the tabbrowser extension nightmare.

az
21st November 2004, 09:38
Of course you can drag tabs in Opera. You can also drag them OUT of Opera to get a sort of crippled SDI window, and you can drag them from one Opera window to another. (the latter two using the windows panel, ctrl+0)

The Motorola site works just fine here, I was there a few days ago and tried it again just now, what problem do you have with that, William?


Originally posted by Sasq
Browser extentions used to do it in FF, there is an extention now that does it, just don't ask me the name of it while i am drunk :p

See, that's what I mean. I don't need no stinking extension, and I can surf while VERY drunk (I can zoom everything nice and big so I can lean back so as not to fall off the chair. Also helps against that damn double sight ;)).

The dpreview issue is Phil Askey doing bad browser sniffing and being lazy. In fact I've read about one user who spoofed his browser ID who said that it did work with Opera.

AZ

agallag
21st November 2004, 09:39
Perfect, thanks Utwig. That just about does it. I may be able to abandon IE now. We'll see. :up:

Sasq
21st November 2004, 09:44
zoom is easy - mac key and plus or minus key, or zero to return to normal - ctrl for windows users...
and your point is az? oh and again, you keep that title until you install and really play :p

UtwigMU
21st November 2004, 09:46
I also use FSLT (focus last selected tab) - focuses on last selected tab when closing current tab instead on adjacent tab.

With miniT they are only tab enhancements I need.

az
21st November 2004, 09:59
dpreview with spoofed user agent string:

http://www.fieras.de/murc/dpreviewspoof.png

Sasq, you can zoom images with FF? IF you can really do that, I'll install it.

AZ

az
21st November 2004, 10:00
Utwig: FLST is default behaviour in Opera (though you can get buttons that behave different, for instance show next tab on closing, etc.).

AZ

Sasq
21st November 2004, 10:01
dude that looks ugly

az
21st November 2004, 10:07
Dude you're pissed. What looks ugly? My colors, my skin (racist! :p), the way I arranged my toolbars? This is far from the default Opera config, BTW, but I like it that way.

AZ

Sasq
21st November 2004, 10:10
the whole damn screen :p

az
21st November 2004, 10:19
That better?

http://www.fieras.de/murc/ff.png

AZ

dZeus
21st November 2004, 11:06
Az: don't bother asking about ff, let alone installing!
Compared to opera,
- It's slow
- It's got inferior tabs handling
- It's bloated (as in large in size) even without extensions. Hmm... crappy coding?
- It's slow
- It needs lots of extensions to get even remotely usable functionality that you get standard (and better) in opera
- Oh did I mention it's dog slow? :D

I'll give this to FF though:
it appears to work slightly better with some 'IE-html' pages, and it doesn't appear to crash (opera crashes from time to time, although you can always restore all open pages with a single click)

Paddy
21st November 2004, 11:35
hehehe :)

Love the custom title Az! :)

Jammrock
21st November 2004, 12:37
No problems with Gmail, Motorola or DPreview with Opera.

PAugustin
21st November 2004, 12:57
Yes they work perfectly well :D

Opera ROCKS !

William
21st November 2004, 13:02
Motorola link that still doesn't work (http://direct.motorola.com/eng/phoneSelect.asp?country=GBR&language=ENG&productid=) And you got me all excited that something had changed.

az
21st November 2004, 13:38
Obviously, they use some kind of browser sniffing. It's not really Opera's fault (other than having too little market share, so some companies don't care).

AZ

isochar
21st November 2004, 13:38
Can Opera be just a browser and not throw everything plus the kitchen sink in? For that fact, can Opera uninstall features that I don't want? Can Opera gain enough of a user base to be specifically coded for by large websites? Can security experts look at the source code?

KvHagedorn
21st November 2004, 13:42
Motorola phones are crap anyhow. :p

az
21st November 2004, 13:48
With Version 7.60, You can separately disable mail, chat, and newsreader (and reenable at any time). Including these features, Opera still is smaller and faster than a naked FF (and has more browser features to boot - which you don't have to use. You can configure Opera to behave more or less like IE - SDI windows, no mouse gestures, IE skin, only the buttons IE has...). (Deleting the one .dll that enables mail etc. would just free <300KB, but you are free to do so)

Can Opera gain enough market share? Certainly. On hand-held devices, it is already market leader, and its market share on desktops has risen slowly, but steadily. It will always remain third, though, as things look. Many (most) large websites do already work with Opera, and it gets better.

No, security experts can't look at the code, but being able to look at the code doesn't equal security. There are still security holes found in both FF and Opera; the security holes in Opera however almost always get fixed within a week (often before they are known - security through obscurity DOES work, to a degree. It can only be one part of the security strategy, of course), and there were less, and less serious, security holes found for Opera than for FF in the last few months.

AZ

Jessterw
21st November 2004, 14:06
The increase in holes found is largely a result of "more eyes looking" as FF gains market share. Most holes have also been fixed within a week, if not within less than a few days. However, I've never considered the open source and closed source natures of either browser, respectively, to be of any real consideration.

Even if I wanted to use Opera, the very fact that I have to pay for an additional license just because I've moved from Windows to Mac. I realize that it could be seen as akin to using the browser on multiple machines, but last I checked I could easily (edit: not legally per se) run Opera on two Win-based machines using the same code.

az
21st November 2004, 14:30
You can get additional licenses for other platforms for ~10 EUR. Yes, it costs money, but to me, it's worth it. We only expect browsers to be free because in the browser wars, two companies tried to gain ahold of the web, so they gave their browsers away for free. (Of course, I am always happy when there is anything good for free - but sometimes, it pays to buy good tea.)

And yes, I don't think the open/closed source argument should be a criterion (why does nobody use this beautiful singular, BTW?).

AZ

Jessterw
21st November 2004, 15:20
I don't mind paying money, mind you I already forked over $39/USD to have a browser I (now) use largely for compatibility testing (this isn't counting money spent on previous version). So having to pay an additional $15/USD to use it on a different platform is just not worth it.

I'm more than happy to pay for good software, but when I can use Firefox on almost any platform I choose without penalty and it does all I need it to do... well it speaks for itself. $54 to use a browser on two platforms is just a little much I think, though I will grant you that Opera is more than just a browser, and as such it should be considered in that light (in both pros and cons).

az
21st November 2004, 16:56
If Firefox does all you want, then there is of course no reason to pay money for Opera. For compatibility tests I would just run the free version of Opera and ignore the ads, it isn't crippled in any way and doesn't spy on you.

AZ

az
21st November 2004, 17:03
http://nontroppo.org/wiki/WhyOpera

Even regular Opera users may find one or two things there they didn't know about. Very nice :)

AZ

gt40
21st November 2004, 17:36
Opera rules!!!
-or as my 10 year old calls it - Ohpra :)

Jessterw
21st November 2004, 19:07
Originally posted by az
If Firefox does all you want, then there is of course no reason to pay money for Opera. For compatibility tests I would just run the free version of Opera and ignore the ads, it isn't crippled in any way and doesn't spy on you.

AZ
I of course do run the free version on my Mac, I was just a little put off by the fact I couldn't use the same license code as the Windows version. I was still an Opera user when I last payed for it, so that has a lot to do with my comment.

dshumake
21st November 2004, 19:36
Originally posted by az
dpreview with spoofed user agent string:

[image removed]

Sasq, you can zoom images with FF? IF you can really do that, I'll install it.

AZ

I didn't spoof the user agent string to get the sidebar to show the lower levels and without this opera doesn't display correctly. Furthermore, on the home page of dpreview, opera 7.54 doesn't display the page correctly. The text boxes have text under box edges.

Although opera doesn't display the page as expected by the authors, I attribute it to poor html coding.

http://validator.w3.org/ indicates that there are 186 problems with http://www.dpreview.com/ .



But the html problem is valid as a reason for not using opera.


dshumake

DGhost
21st November 2004, 19:51
my browser is better than all of yours...

sadly, that is all I can say about it :D

Chrono_Wanderer
21st November 2004, 20:33
hehehe. another one of these :p

Firefox is my main browser right now... its loads so damn fast :)

schmosef
21st November 2004, 20:33
You guys all seem to use your browser for a lot more than me. All I want is a browser that is highly compatible and renders nicely. I don't need all the other frilly stuff like skins and macros and tabbed browsing. Maybe I'm just spoiled by my two triple head workstations, but if I want to browse more than one site I open another window, I don't need tabbed browsing--although it would have been a useful feature 10 years ago in my University days when I was Pr0n hunting. (it was harder to find good Pron back then! ;))

I think the point made earlier about each browser being better suited for a specific type of user is correct. I guess than my needs are just not that great.

I develop in ASP.Net and need to test compatibility with IE and FF. IE renders .Net pages better. That will improve over time. MS's IIS needs to spit out cleaner HTML and FF needs to become more forgiving of pages that are not 100% to spec.

I'm reading a book on CSS and there's lots of little details of the CSS spec that it claims IE doesn't support. I'll have to test the ones I care about to see if FF does support them.

Final thought...

As a point of contention among computer geeks, the browser issue is really ridiculously small time. In my day, it wasn't too uncommon to hear of fist fights breaking out between Mac and PC diehards. Those were real rivalries!

schmosef
21st November 2004, 20:35
Originally posted by Chrono_Wanderer
hehehe. another one of these :p

Firefox is my main browser right now... its loads so damn fast :)

Maybe it's just my rig, but for me, there's no appreciable speed difference in load times between IE and FF.

GuchiGuh
21st November 2004, 22:43
I don't really understand the whole "FIREFOX LOADED 0.24 MICROSECONDS FASTER THAN OPERA" hype or the other way around...

If you mean loading webpages, then I apologize, because I am currently sucking pizza through a strawer on my connection...:p

other than that, lets just end this all and say both browsers are better than IE...:D
*Group Hug!*

DGhost
21st November 2004, 22:57
Originally posted by GuchiGuh
I don't really understand the whole "FIREFOX LOADED 0.24 MICROSECONDS FASTER THAN OPERA" hype or the other way around...

If you mean loading webpages, then I apologize, because I am currently sucking pizza through a strawer on my connection...:p

other than that, lets just end this all and say both browsers are better than IE...:D
*Group Hug!*

maybe *your* copy of IE :P

GuchiGuh
21st November 2004, 23:09
reveal your secret(s) :devious:
Or else..........you don't want to know "what else" :p

The PIT
21st November 2004, 23:18
Sadly Firefox has a problem with Java plugins and you end up being constantly asked to install the plugin.
If you to about plugin it reckons the plugin is installed.
I know of three machines that got this problem at work. Haven't found a solution except use another browser.

Sasq
21st November 2004, 23:26
TP: tried this?
http://www.mozilla.org/support/firefox/faq#q2.2

The PIT
21st November 2004, 23:41
All of them bar this nsis. Clear as mud how to use that.

UtwigMU
21st November 2004, 23:48
If you would like to test Opera without adds, there's astalavista search plugin for Firefox on http://mycroft.mozdev.org (mycroft.mozdev.org).

az
22nd November 2004, 02:55
LOL Utwig.

As a matte of fact, if you want more search engines in Opera, download Opsed (http://starzaki.eu.org/~hclan/operapl/en/), and you get access to hundreds of search engines with an abundance of options yadda yadda.

BTW, how can you search in firefox? Can you doubleclick any word and then select your search engine to search for this word in a new window? Can you rightclick selected text and do the same? Can you type "g string" in the address bar and search google for "string" with that? (or "a string" for alltheweb, or in my case "w string" for wikipedia, "leo string" for the leo dictionary etc. etc.). Do you have a sidebar where you can enter your searchword and hit any of the multitude of buttons there to search with the corresponding engine? I know you can search using the separate search bar, one of the Opera features FF copied (which is OK).

AZ

Jessterw
22nd November 2004, 03:02
* Doubleclick and rightclick - Yes (they are combined, doubleclick selects the word and rightclick brings up the menu)

* Address bar searching is possible, but not by default if I remember correctly, so got one there.

* No, no sidebar by default either, but again this is where extensions come into play. Out of the box, nope, but then sidebars are just annoying :p

As I said before, Opera is not just a browser and so it really can't be compared to a browser that is meant to be barebones.

VJ
22nd November 2004, 05:30
Funny, following this thread, I decided to upgrade the firefox I have (0.6) to 1.0 and compare with Opera (yes, az, despite my comments, I was using Opera! :p).

First question: how do I get the tabs in Firefox at the bottom of the window?


Jörg

William
22nd November 2004, 07:50
Originally posted by az
Obviously, they use some kind of browser sniffing. It's not really Opera's fault (other than having too little market share, so some companies don't care).

AZ

Not Opera's fault? They promise to be able to masquarade as another browser. If they did that properly, then Motorola wouldn't know, would they?

az
22nd November 2004, 07:56
Actually, they never promised that. It was a deliberate decision to have Opera always be detectable (otherwise, they would just vanish out of browser statistics). But I completely spoofed the ID using a proxy, but there are other means with which to detect browsers (every browser does some things a little differently than others, you can detect for these differences). It is the fault of the website developer, because he does two things: He doesn't adhere to standards (kind of forgiveable, many people don't, although it's not nice. It IS possible to write nice, standards-conform websites, the problem is, IE displays most of them wrongly), and he uses either code that is very very browser-specific or does too strict browser-filtering (many sites just filter if something is either IE or Mozilla, and when not, they simply serve you nothing, or crap. This is NOT the browsers' fault).

AZ

dshumake
22nd November 2004, 08:02
What is missing when viewing motorola with Opera?
When I checked there doesn't appear to be a difference between firefox 1.0, netscape 7.2 or opera 7.54?

dshumake

az
22nd November 2004, 08:06
Try the specific link William gave. They don't even bother sending opera the site, so opera doesn't even have a chance to try and display it.

AZ

William
22nd November 2004, 09:24
Originally posted by az
uses either code that is very very browser-specific or does too strict browser-filtering (many sites just filter if something is either IE or Mozilla, and when not, they simply serve you nothing, or crap. This is NOT the browsers' fault).

AZ

I suspect over zealous filtering personally. However, that doesn't meant that Opera can't solve it. Every developer hour they spend on things like the mail client is an hour not used on the core part of the product -the browser. After several years, it renders the news part of formula1.com incorrectly F1 news story (http://www.formula1.com/news/2440.html) If you look at the same page in IE, you'll see that it has cut off the bottom part of the news story. And it doesn't send clicks correctly to digikey when sorting large lists of components. I wish they would prioritise on fixing things like this before adding fancy mail and newsreaders that you can get rid of in the same way as you can get rid of OE from windows by uninstalling it. </rant>

az
22nd November 2004, 11:36
Well, report these sites on http://my.opera.com/forums/ then - how should they fix them if they don't know they don't work (or if they know it, but have other priorities because no one tells them he needs those sites :))

AZ

William
22nd November 2004, 11:51
I seem to recall reporting them to one of their newsgroups (I can't remember which now) a few years ago. I'm apparentley not that important.

az
22nd November 2004, 12:05
Maybe it's just too hard.. there are sites that simply WON'T work without using ActiveX or whatever, and there are other sites that simply refuse to let Opera in (detecting it and sending it different code than other browsers. dpreview does this, but here, it can be circumvented by spoofing your browser id, which does not work on that motorola site).

Ah well, just wait for the next big corporate identity change and associated complete website overhaul... ;)

AZ

az
22nd November 2004, 12:07
I must say the creator of that motorola site tried very hard not to let opera in...

anyways, there is a dedicated forum for this sort of thing now: Open The Web Forum (http://my.opera.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=29).

AZ

az
22nd November 2004, 12:18
WILLIAM: In Opera, hit F12 and disable Javascript, then go to that Motorola site. Then write their webmaster.

AZ

Mcollector
22nd November 2004, 12:55
Originally posted by Jesterzwild
* Doubleclick and rightclick - Yes (they are combined, doubleclick selects the word and rightclick brings up the menu)
Nice feature. Didn't know about that one.

* Address bar searching is possible, but not by default if I remember correctly, so got one there. Apparently Address bar searching is possible by default. I've typed the search term there by accident several times. It works like the "I'm feeling lucky" option of a google search and takes you right to the site.

az
22nd November 2004, 13:03
You sure that wasn't just address completion? (automatically adding the www. and .com)

AZ

Mcollector
22nd November 2004, 13:20
I use FF. I have found it to be quite a bit faster, nicer and less prone to dark side hacks than Internet Explozer. FF is my main browser now. I keep IE around for the few sites where FF seems to have a problem, like on Trendmicro's on-line virus scan page.

I don't know why someone in this thread called FF bloated and slow. I can say that the 1.0PR release of FF was noticeably faster than the 0.8 release, at least on my machine. The 1.0 final release might be slightly slower than 1.0PR, or it might just be the cached pages having had to reload. FF is certainly faster than IE.

As to FF being bloated vis-a-vis Opera, maybe that is Mozilla compared to Opera, not FF. I thought the whole purpose of FF was to be small and fast, with just the most important features and not a lot of bells and whistles few ever use.

I just want a basic browser that is reasonably fast, blocks pop ups, has bookmarks, and now that I've gotten used to them, tabs. (At first I didn't know about tabs and was just using FF as a very plain vanilla browser. Then I bothered to read the help pages one day.) The magnification feature is nice, too, and the fonts seem more reliably readable on FF than IE. Some sites, particularly some European ones, seem to use a font that comes out as tiny, smeared text that even W98 magnifier doesn't help on IE. Don't have that problem with FF. Being faster than IE is nice, too.

I also want to get away as much as possible from anything Micro$oft. No desire to support a monopoly. I only use their OSes, just because there is so much s/w out there for them. I also have Linux and even OS/2. I have a copy of Office merely to be able to read Word and Excel documents that I can't read with my older version of PerfectOffice, and because some dweebs refuse to put them into .pdf or .html format that EVERYONE can read. Posting Word documents on a website is particularly egregious stupidity, IMHO.

At any rate, I'm happy with FF for my main browser, didn't like Mozilla because it had too much built-in (I use Eudora as my mail client, for example), and keep IE around just in case something doesn't go right with FF.

I've never tried Opera, heard that it had more problems with websites than FF or IE, and more bugs than FF. Also heard it was slow and bloated. But I've never used it, so maybe these are ugly slanders. I probably won't use it if I'd have to pay for it. I'm wondering if the ad banners are bad like Juno crap or THG's site, or if they are small and unobtrusive like Eudora 5.x in full featured, free mode?

At any rate, I'm happy with FF (for now). Death to IE and the evil empire of Micro$oft.

Mcollector
22nd November 2004, 13:29
Originally posted by az
You sure that wasn't just address completion? (automatically adding the www. and .com)

Yes, I'm sure. I've typed phrases and it takes me to a site related to what I intended to find with a google search. Many times it was exactly what I was looking for. The resulting URL looked in no way like URL completion, though I think FF will do that, too. As far as I know, that's the default FF behavior. I didn't turn anything special on that would have done that.

dZeus
22nd November 2004, 13:40
I'm not talking about mozilla, I'm talking about firefox, compared to opera.

I do have firefox 1.0 installed to compare it side-by-side, and while firefox is slightly faster at loading pages here without tweaking settings for either opera or firefox, it is a lot slower in:
- history navigation (it doesn't even appear to load pages from cache at all??)
- javascript menus (noticable lag)
- switching between tabs
- page rendering (try auto-scrolling through a page and you'll see what I mean. Could be a messed up auto-scroll implementation too)

I've found all these things give firefox a really sluggish feel compared to opera. As for html handling, I've explained that firefox does better in that department. Appearantly it also doesn't crash as often as opera on most systems. As for bloated, I clearly explained in my posts why it is bloated: Even with barebones functionality it's noticably larger in size than opera which is feature-filled (probably comparable to mozilla in amounts of features, of not more).

Mcollector
22nd November 2004, 14:01
I can only give personal comparisons of IE v. FF. I've not tried Opera, so I have to rely on what others say. Maybe my comments were related to what others said of older versions of Opera.

In any case, crashing is not a good thing. I've had IE lock up or crash on me more frequently than FF. I can't remember a hang on FF.

I don't see what the slowness you mention in switching between tabs is, unless you have a less capable machine than mine (hard to believe, mine = 400 MHz PII with 192M and a 32M Millennium G400DH (not using DH)). Tab switching seems to happen in 300 ms or less, if I can even hazard a guess at the speed.

I've noticed some funnies on manual scrolling occasionally, like something doesn't quite catch up right away, but they are gone very quick. I'll have to try autoscrolling later. Don't have that turned on right now.

Yes, there are history page caches. Clear your FF cache, go to some static web page that takes a short while to load, then close FF, then go back. I do this for the seti@home individual results page all the time. Perhaps FF clears the cache when you shutdown your system. I vaguely remember pages seeming to reload when I reboot. I leave my machine on 24/7 to run seti@home, so I don't quite recall.

The one thing I don't like that FF doesn't do is to pop up the autodisconnect window when I close it. Mozilla doesn't do this either. IE does. I have to disconnect manually with FF. Fortunately, the modem LEDs warn me that I'm still connected. I've gotten used to doing it now, but I wish FF had an option to autodisconnect on close of FF.

dZeus
22nd November 2004, 14:04
all I can say is try opera for a while for yourself and then make comments about my comments :)

Jessterw
22nd November 2004, 16:03
FF is bloated because it still relies on some of the same codebase as Mozilla does. The rendering engine itself accounts for much of this bloat. I can't say for Win-based installations, but, on OS X, the 25MB it takes up disk space-wise is hardly a bother. Yes, Opera is less hefty at almost 10MB. FYI, Safari is only a tad more than 8MB, though it's rendering engine is "part" of the OS.

I've never noticed on Windows or Mac any slowness in tab switching except when the system is grinding to a halt anyways.

There are some issues with scrolling down a page; far less smooth than I would care for.

With FF, however, I get a browser without the need to prune all the unwanted extras Opera throws in. At that, I can use whatever mail client I like, which I know you can in Opera, but what's the point of doing that when you payed for the whole thing... True there is a free, ad supported version, but that's just annoying over a long period of time if all you want is a browser. I think that's why a lot of people choose to go with an alternate browser. Opera is nice, but it's more than some people need.

Opera is a suite in essence, with lots of extras that are nicely packaged, so comparing that to a simple, bare-bones browser like Firefox is rather like comparing Notepad to Office (okay, maybe not that extreme :D ).

dbdg
22nd November 2004, 17:00
My site works perfectly in IE and Opera, there are issues with Firefox.

... my XHTML and CSS syntax is correct...well as correct as I want it to be.

Wombat
22nd November 2004, 17:07
Originally posted by dbdg
... my XHTML and CSS syntax is correct...well as correct as I want it to be. The second half of that sentence makes the first half null and void.

az
22nd November 2004, 18:27
How does panning look in FF?

Here's a little demo of it in Opera - excuse the low quality and the jerky-vision please, it's the vidcap (In Opera, this is much smoother).

http://www.fieras.de/murc/panning.avi (~3.4 MB)

AZ

Jessterw
22nd November 2004, 18:31
Get a 404 on that link, but could just be me.

az
22nd November 2004, 18:41
No, it was me being tired. Try again :)

AZ

Marshmallowman
22nd November 2004, 20:37
panning on FF is smooth and easy, just press the mouse wheel and move in the direction you want to pan.

The PIT
22nd November 2004, 23:49
Tabbed browsing isn't slow here.
Page rendering isn't slow here.

Tried Opera in the past and to be honest found it no quicker than IE. Also found that it had problems rendering a few sites.

The site I found that doesn't work with FF is the football league web pages which seem to be IE only for the forums.

So bar the Java bugs which maybe suns fault and not FF FF is the way to go for me.

Anyone tried Firefox on a usb stick yet???

dbdg
23rd November 2004, 08:20
Why do matrox users even need tabbed browsing, three screens is fine for me.

I put the second half of the sentance to cover myself, just in case, every page has been validated as xhtml compliant.

chaoliang
25th November 2004, 02:57
1. FF is browser only, even IE. That's better than a program package like Opera.
2. I've testet the three browsers on various chinese sites. The fonts are almost always better presentet in IE than in FF. FF has a smaller font even for MURC site, which looks less nice.
3. I don't really like IE. I had great hopes on FF. But till now, IE is the only browser, with which I feel sure that I didn't miss anything.

Mcollector
25th November 2004, 05:37
Funny, I had the exact OPPOSITE experience of FF v. IE on the fonts.

Can someone tell me how big the annoying ad banner is on free Opera? I just read a user review that said it takes up 1/5th of the screen (it was on an opera.com link to download.com). Is that true?

az
25th November 2004, 05:45
Just try it, the download isn't very large and it can be removed without leaving any traces :)

That said, you have two choices: Regular banner size or google text banners which span the whole width of the screen, like a toolbar, but take up less height.

Oh, and v7.60 is a whole lot better than 7.54, especially for newcomers, unfortunately it isn't final yet.

AZ

dbdg
25th November 2004, 05:45
standard 468*60 size.

Sasq
25th November 2004, 05:55
Originally posted by az
Just try it, the download isn't very large and it can be removed without leaving any traces :)

That said, you have two choices: Regular banner size or google text banners which span the whole width of the screen, like a toolbar, but take up less height.

Oh, and v7.60 is a whole lot better than 7.54, especially for newcomers, unfortunately it isn't final yet.

AZ

FF doesn't insert anything to begin with, just delete the dir and its gone from your system :p

az
25th November 2004, 06:36
That's exactly the way it is in Opera, and has been for the past six years. (Exception: If you install for multiple users, it will create one additional directory per user where it stores its settings. You can find out about all this by typing about:opera in the address bar, but the location is windows standard).

AZ

az
25th November 2004, 06:38
VJ :)

Set your Opera to ID either as IE or Moz and go to www.dpreview.com :) (strangely, this didn't work with 7.52, but it does with 7.54 - the little z-oder problem (menu behind flash) is sorted in 7.60)

Sometimes it works just writing the webmaster a nice post in their forum :)

AZ

az
25th November 2004, 15:04
Sasq: Yes, IIRC Opera doesn't create any registry entries (though of course uninstall information for windows' add/remove software and default browser settings have to be stored somewhere, I guess in the reg...).

AZ

Jessterw
25th November 2004, 15:22
Opera stores settings in the registry for install/uninstall and a relatively few additional items. So does Firefox for that matter. The amount of information stored in the registry is negligible at best (and some are created by Windows in response to actions taken in said browsers), and far better than what various other browsers throw in.

Can't say for sure on Opera for Windows, but both browsers place files in other directories on Mac and Firefox does so for profiles in Windows.

az
25th November 2004, 15:47
Opera for windows either places its settings in a subdirectory of its install directory, or, for multiple user installations, it places them in c:\documents and settings\application data\opera (or whatever its install dir is called)\*

BTW, you can tell Opera where to store its settings, and if this is on a FAT partition (or anything else all your OSes have read/write access), you can use the same directory and files for your preferences, cache, mail etc. across all your OSes.

AZ

gorg
27th November 2004, 10:13
I have to agree that life would be hard without Opera. As much as I have respect for Mozilla and Firefox they feel like Linux to Mac OS X. Not that the latter is perfect but it is miles ahead of Linux and Winblow$ for personal use.
But we can't have everything. Mac OS X system software at Linux prices along with an Opera version that matches Window$' one in terms of development support and resources. Mac version is still Carbon and does not inherit all the functionality of Cocoa applications.

Mcollector
27th November 2004, 12:15
This thread looks like a debate between the Calvinists and the Papists. :)

az
27th November 2004, 12:29
That's really the wrong analogy: This is more like the enlightened vs. uninformed heretics that steal the best ideas off the former and copy them poorly :p j/k

AZ

Kurt
29th November 2004, 02:44
I propose the test by water. If you float you're an heretic so you get killed. If you drown, you're not an heretic.

az
29th November 2004, 02:59
Opera is lighter than Firefox ;)

AZ

G400SG16mb
29th November 2004, 03:07
I use K-Meleon

http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/