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**UtwigMU** · 15 November 2004, 08:51

Re: New ("new"? ;P) rig

Originally posted by Nowhere
I'll build in the near future new machine, on tight budget (many "old" parts), but with stability, quietness, 24/7 operation and relative performance in mind, for use with win2k and ubuntu linux probably. I'd appreciate if you share your opinion on few things/see if I haven't done some false assumptions/etc.

motherboard:
I want to use ASRock K7S8XE or eventually (if budget will be tighter than I assume now...) K7S8X. No problems here, right?

Yes, I have ECS K7S5A that has been rock solid for over a year, Asrock is better-quality wise, since we're in EU, expect 1 to 2 year warranty.

cpu:
Sempron 2200+ or eventually (as above...) old Athlon XP 1700+ Palomino (question: will it work ok in motherboard that is much newer?)

I recommend mobile Barton, old Palomino should work as well.

ram:
first big dillema: does K7S8XE work reliably with noname ram? (I want to buy 256mb cheaply...is it enough for fully comfortable work (lots of webpages + audio/IM/IRC in background) with win2k? (I don't have experience with it...))

256MB is not enough for fully comfortable work (I split the RAM between ECS box and rebuilt BX because I had to RMA some parts - first hand experience).

Get 512MB of something like Twinmos - life time warranty or go with value RAM from a brand name such as Micron, Corsair, Samsung, Viking, Mushkin or Kingston. Cheap no name RAM is not a lot cheaper compared to good warranty brand name.

On XP (but it doesn't consume a lot more than 2k - 85 vs 65MB after boot) 512 was enough for comfortable work, but 1GB would be better for serious work.

video:
good old Matrox G400SH 16MB (works in K7S8XE?)

If your card is AGP2x and Motherboard is AGP8x you'll need to do R69 mod. By looking on my G400 16SH the R69 is located elsewhere than on dual head card, ask for specifics in Matrox hardware. The G550's and G450's and even Parhelias are going cheaply 2nd hand though, if you need a good 2D card.

audio:
probably Aureal Vortex SQ2500 (is integrated audio still worse, audio quality wise, than mine Vortex?)

Integrated Audio is decent, unless you want surround or have it connected to high end HiFi, it should be fine.

lancard:
here comes the expensive part I'm afraid...it will be wireless LAN, so I need some good WLAN card that works flawlessly with linux...and I have no idea which one to choose...

I'd adwise against wireless as it's slow, has security problems and is harder to configure.

case/PSU:
Since I want to use my old Enlight case, which has 250W PSU, I assume I have to buy new power supply unit...

What do you think about Chieftec PSUs? Or is this one interesting?

I had Antec 300W Smart power die, but I RMAd it and got a new 350W dual fan Smart Power. Mainly look for good warranty. Check if there is Tagan on the market:

It is:

TAGAN.COM

http://www.tagan.com/wheretobuy.htm

TAGAN.COM - Contact us for any business inquiries

Scroll down to Poland.

I was told Antec has comparable return rate to no name PSUs, however with brand name PSU, you get 3-year warranty and the Antec shop here has excelent return policy - walked in with dead PSU, walked out with new better PSU. Besides if a brand name PSU dies, components are usually intact.

monitor:
I'll probably buy some used/after leasing/old off the shelf...do you think Eizo F57 or T565 is a good choice?

Get identical pair and use either G400/PCI card combo or get a dualhead card.

Here there's this shop that buys 2nd hand brand name (IBM, HPaq, Siemens, Dell, etc...) computers, servers, laptops, printers and monitors from large companies and sells them. Occasionally they have good selection of monitors (recently they had used Siemens 21's for 120 Euros), they have 30-day money back warranty and they let you test monitors before buying one.

See if there are similar companies there and wait for a good offer.

hdd:
I want relaible and quiet drive. Seagate?

Yes, they have 5-year warranty, even if it dies, you get a replacement.

cpu cooler:
I guees I can't go wrong with Zalman CNPS-7000A-AlCu, can I? (or eventually, if on tighter budget, Pentagram Freezone QC-80 AlCu, basically a copy...)

Zalman is too expensive and doesn't cool that well. Besides a friend who had a Zalman 6000AlCu on Tualatin Celeron didn't notice any noise difference when I upgraded his rig to Athlon 2200+ with Coolermaster. I had great experience with CoolerMaster and Arctic Cooling cheap (7-10 Euro) coolers - quiet, cools well, just not for extreme overclocking.

If you trully want to spend on cooling fetish, I recommend Thermalright 9 series with slow undervolted 92mm fan. Zalman fans are good for case fans though.

**Nowhere** · 15 November 2004, 14:34

Too bad Bartons are too expensive, ram the same...(though maybe I'll go for 512 brand name...but it'll be tough :/ ). Card is 4x, so no problems here, right? And about wireless - nevermind, I've just discovered that I don't need it after all, and since I do have latest generation 905 from 3com...

About Tagan...never heard about them, they are so good? (and btw, weird that it's possible to buy them in Poland...)
And unfortunatelly I can't have two monitors, everything has to fit on this desk

Thanks for suggestions Utwig.

Anybody else's out there?

**Dr Mordrid** · 15 November 2004, 14:50

I'm running the K7S8XE and it's been very solid, but you might want to also take a look at the K7S8XE+. This one has SATA support. Either works with Socket A's up to 3200+ and Semprons up to 2800+.

These boards support 1.5v AGP8 and AGP4, but NOT 3.3v AGP4. Better check with Matrox about that cards voltage as it's not one I'm familiar with. Give them the G4+ number on the sticker when you do.

I use Antec's 480w and larger power supplies.

I normally use Crucial RAM, but before that came by UPS I had 1G of el cheapo Kingston in there. It worked well enough and was stable, but not as fast as the Crucial stuff.

I usually go with Linksys NIC's of any type. Their stuff is solid and not that expensive.

Dr. Mordrid

**UtwigMU** · 15 November 2004, 15:07

Tagan was recommended to me by friend, when I wasn't sure wether I'd need to buy new PSU or if I'd get Antec 300W replaced.

I usually post on Ars for hardware recommendations, but not all PSUs and coolers that are available in USA are available here, so for those recommendations I go to friend. Tagan was also recommended to me on Ars.

Otherwise, Fortron, Sparkle, Chieftec, Tagan are generally in not top but good price performance power supplies, see if they're available in Poland.

Get a good 350 to 480W PSU and good quality RAM. You may skimp on everything, but PSU, RAM, motherboard and decent cooling are the foundation of stability. Personally, based on my RMA experience - they fixed 550W TC connector in 2 days and replaced 300W PSU with a 350W in the same day - I'll stay with Antec - they give 3-year warranty on everything.

**Wombat** · 15 November 2004, 15:23

Fortrons are improved Sparkle units, last time I checked (I had a Fortron).

**GNEP** · 15 November 2004, 16:07

To be honest with the sort of rig that you are describing I doubt you will need a new PSU. People often over-specify a wattage (to allow for sub-standard generics) but rarely use them... having said that, a dodgy PSU can often be a source of random instabilities

**Nowhere** · 16 November 2004, 06:44

I think I'll buy it just to be safe...

So...what do you think about 350W Chieftec PSU made by Delta Electronics?

**Goc** · 16 November 2004, 07:18

I'd give it thumbs up.

**UtwigMU** · 16 November 2004, 17:37

Are Delta power supplies any good?

Ars Case and Cooling gurus give it thumbs up.

**Liquid Snake** · 16 November 2004, 19:41

Since you mentioned quiet operation, I'll point you to http://www.silentpcreview.com (that's the second post in a row that I've mentioned them, heh).

I have a Zalman 7000AlCu. It's a good cooler, pretty quiet on the lowest setetings and still cools pretty well. It's not too expensive either. The Thermalrights with their heatpipes will cool better but they're more expensive, heavier (the all-copper ones anyway) and you need to get a separate fan. Usually being able to get a separate fan is a good thing, but it'll end up being another thing you need to get. Quiet fans are not always easy to find.

The Seagate 7200.7 drives are good. Pretty quick and quiet when idle. Seeks are kinda noisy but personally, they don't bother me too much. I have the 80GB and 120GB SATA models.

Antec PSUs are decent, but they are not quiet when under moderate to heavy load. The Truepower 380 in my server got pretty loud in the summer. I'm using a Seasonic Super Tornado 400W in my main PC with a 120mm fan. The fan rarely spins up. If you decide to get one, make sure you get the newer revisions (A3 or newer) since the old ones had issues with the fan controller.

**Mcollector** · 18 November 2004, 13:02

PSU: 

I hate to say it, but I'm staying away from Antec. I had a 350W SmartPower PSU fail on me after a year. That system started random reboots, which said either RAM (not likely since it was ECC) or PSU. It was the PSU. It was also a pain to install in a Lian Li case because the extra fan on the bottom of the PSU was protected by a grate that stuck out just far enough that I couldn't slide it into position through the back of the case. I had to slide the mobo out and feed the PSU up through the inside of the case. A pain.

Another problem it had was that it didn't like a certain KB, in that I couldn't reliably hit DEL or ESC to enter the bios or bypass the memory test. Sounds odd that it would be a PSU issue, but when I changed PSUs to a Fotron Source or a Sparkle, I didn't have the problem. If I changed KBs I didn't have the problem. It was just one older KB that someone had converted from AT to PS2 that it didn't like. It was the only time that KB ever had that problem with any system. Every one I had of both the 300W and 350W SmartPower PSUs did this.

Although I got a replacement for the dead PSU, I was unimpressed with Antec tech support. I only got through one time, the guy was nice enough (and could actually speak English), but all subsequent call backs ended up being routed to a "leave a message and we'll get back to you" recording. They never did, despite 3 or 4 messages for a problem I thought they'd want to check out.

I've also had one DOA Antec. I've also read about other failure problems with Antec PSUs, including in this thread. Maybe the SmartPower line is a lemon. Maybe Antec's TrueBlue PSUs are better, but for now I don't recommend Antec PSUs.

For a decent, inexpensive PSU, go with a 300W Sparkle. I've never had a Sparkle fail or exhibit signs of instability. They are only about 1/2 to 2/3 the price of an Antec, at least here in the US.

RAM:

I have a 733 MHz Piii in a Tyan mobo with 512M (2x256M, soon to be 3x256M=768M) of Crucial PC133 CL2 DIMMs. This thing is as fast on SETI@home as an HP (Asus OEM mobo) 900 MHz Piii with 512M (2x256M) of generic CL3 DIMMs I had where I used to work. I'm not sure the RAM makes that much difference, or it's the fact that the Tyan system is 133 FSB and the HP system was 100 FSB, or the mobo brand. At any rate, I was very impressed.

Another thing about generics is that while you may save a few $$ initially, and about 95+% of the generic DIMMs I've used worked just fine, it's that other 5% or less that can cause you enough headaches to troubleshoot and replace that it makes the very few $$ you save with generics not worth it. Typically, the problem is random reboots, but it could also be lockups, and both can be caused by a number of problems. It wastes enough time figuring it out and getting replacements as to make it cost more in the end than you saved with all the generics you've used. I only use name brand DIMMs now, never generic DIMMs nor even generics with name brand chips on them. I like Crucial.

Another thing I prefer to use for RAM is ECC DIMMs, but your mobo and chipset *MUST* have support for ECC, or you are just wasting your money. They cost more, and you may pay a very slight performance penalty for the chipset to do the ECC (not as bad as registered ECC DIMMs, though), but they will fix single bit errors and detect (usually w/ a BSOD) double bit errors. This is important as the memory system bus becomes ever faster, you increase your system memory size (the general wisdom is >512M, use ECC), or have a system you must make as reliable as possible (like a server).

ECC can also make troubleshooting problems easier. I had one system where I was using generic 512M DDR PC2100 ECC DIMMs. It worked fine until I started playing DVDs, then I'd get the dreaded BSOD indicating a parity error. (Playing DVDs put the RAM under stress of increased data transfers.) This said RAM, less likely mobo or remotely PSU. A shop where I got the mobo from blamed the video card (a G550 btw, which they were calling "cheap"), but I kept arguing with them that the parity error said likely RAM but possibly mobo, definitely not video card. (I hate talking to the wall.) The BSOD went away when I shut off ECC in the bios, to be replaced by a nice random reboot, another indication of RAM problems. Replacing the PC2100 with PC2700 ECC DIMMs solved the problem, even though the PC2100 was supposed to be the max needed with that mobo. As RAM speeds get faster, timing becomes tighter, so generics are more likely to have issues, or be generically slow (like PC133 CL3) so as to try to avoid problems. This is one reason I prefer ECC. This problem pointed to memory right away because of ECC. Random reboots could been any number of things, like a bad PSU (see above). It just takes one problem like this to cost more in your time than you saved in $$.

(Note that while I prefer ECC, particularly with RAM amounts over 512M, many if not most mobos don't support ECC, and many people get by just fine for many years w/o parity or ECC in systems with 1GB. I just prefer ECC, but my Tyan 733 system I mentioned above doesn't support ECC and has run continuously with its name brand Crucial DIMMs for a year with no problems.)

Heatsinks and Quiet Cooling:

You're using a G400SH with 16M, so you've already got one of my latest fetishes -- large passive heatsinks v. smaller heatsinks with fans. The problem with fans, particulary on video cards, is twofold:

(1) noise
(2) finding a replacement when the time comes.

Particulary on video cards, finding the right replacement fan might become impossible. They often use non-standard connectors (or are hard wired, so soldering will be involved), are an uncommon size or shape, or are 5V v. the 12V of commonly available fans (like CPU and case fans). They get dirty eventually, may lock up and cause overheating and failure of your video card, or become excessively noisy. I have this replacement problem with an actively cooled Diamond FireGL1 v. another FireGL1 with a large passive heatsink. I now prefer big heatsinks and a case fan blowing over the heatsink. Cards or CPUs with large heatsinks rely on case fans. Case fans are larger and can move more air at lower (read quieter) speeds than smaller fans on video cards or CPUs. The larger fans are a widely available common size and much less susceptable to failure.

Unfortunately, these days, you probably have to have some kind of actively cooled heatsink on any CPU. If you try a big passive heatsink on a CPU in a case with improperly designed airflow over the CPU, you may end up jury rigging a fan on the heatsink, and it quite often winds up sounding like a jet aircraft on take off (I've had to do this on surplus upgrade parts).

Water cooling or large, low speed fans in a case with proper airflow design, would be a better choice for silent operation, but you're on a budget, so water cooling is probably out, and finding a case with proper airflow design often means doing something special.
(Just MHO and rant on cooling.)

**Mcollector** · 18 November 2004, 13:18

Originally posted by UtwigMU
Are Delta power supplies any good?

Yes (or have been in the past). Delta is one of the majors. PC Power and Cooling is supposed to be another good one, but probably too pricey for your budget. For a decent inexpensive one, again, I recommend Sparkle. (The others you mentioned, like Chieftec, I have no experience with.)

**rugger** · 18 November 2004, 16:07

Why are you even bothering to upgrade.

A sempron 2200 and an athlon xp 1800 have very little performance difference?

If you are going to upgrade, at least make a decent jump with a bit more money, like to an 2800+ Athlon, or 3100+ Semperon.

Edit: sorry, just ignore me, I didn't read the thread properly.

**Belwarrior** · 20 November 2004, 22:10

hmm.. heard good things about SMC wireless cards on linux sometime back.. mainly due to the chipset they were using...cant recall it at the moment.. (havent been near a PC for almost a month

.. just came back from a long holiday...)

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