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**Jon P. Inghram** · 9 May 2004, 10:57

The main "religious" memory I have from my childhood was being forced to go to some Mormon church as a little kid, and hating it so much and making it so clear that I hated it that much that I was allowed to go back out to the car and wait.

I don't remember now what it was that I couldn't stand about it, but I still remember they way I felt about it. The best way I can describe what I remember feeling is as if it snowed 30 feet and the temperature dropped to -100 below absolute zero and your parents still said you had to walk to school, on a Saturday. During summer break. While you have the flu. And after they said there wasn't any real reason to go anyway.

**ZokesPro** · 9 May 2004, 12:35

Originally posted by Jon P. Inghram
The main "religious" memory I have from my childhood was being forced to go to some Mormon church as a little kid, and hating it so much and making it so clear that I hated it that much that I was allowed to go back out to the car and wait.

My parents grew up in a highly religious environment but luckily they accepted the fact that me and my sister didn't like to go to church. We bitched and whined and my dad got fed up and we stopped going. We talked about it a few years later, I'm just really glad my parents understand.

**KvHagedorn** · 9 May 2004, 13:45

Good ones Lawrence

Why can't this be here without everyone chiming in about how much they hate religion (in particular, Christianity), as though it were something evil? You know, those of you that hate it so much might just be as much the blind followers of convention as those who go just because their parents did. I go to church maybe twice a year, but I'm glad there is still one there to go to. It's one of the few institutions that is based upon caring and fellowship instead of greed and profit and the baser aspects of humanity. What is so awful about having a fellowship of friends to come together with once a week for some better purpose than drinking or working? It's as though you want to kill off one of our few redeemable characteristics as a society.

**TransformX** · 9 May 2004, 14:23

I've been a lot in the sinagoge, too much. The last few years I've been avoiding it to the best of my abilities (which apparently aint THAT much). I know that once we have kids, I'll start going once more so the kids will know the minimum needed.

**Jon P. Inghram** · 9 May 2004, 17:35

Didn't mean to bring a "serious" discussion into a joke thread, sorry.

Wow, notice how KvH is implying that both I and Zokes are atheists and church haters because we didn't like church as kids?

My mom was raised Catholic, my dad wasn't really raised in a religous environment, but later joined the Mormon church. They were married in a Catholic church, but didn't go to either church much. When he lost his job at a local aircraft manufacturer he began to go to the Mormon church again. After he got a new job they moved across town (a small duplex and three kids was a tad crowded.) The church said they had to go the one on the east side, which turned out to have a large population of very rich, very snobbish people who were better than everyone else because they were both rich and "good" Mormons. That is where I absolutely despised
going. They also grew tired of it and eventually left the Mormon church. Much later, after my parents divorced (they were married for a long time, my mom just got sick of my dad for various reasons) my dad joined a large church that's affiliated with the Church of God (they're far more like a conventional Christian/Evangelical church than the original Worldwide Church of God.)

So, having explained my religous background, I'd just like to finish by saying I do NOT hate religions, nor the people who practice them. I reserve hate for people who I see an individual reason to dislike, I don't see someone and think, "Hey, he's Mormon, and because I had a bad experince with Mormons as a child he must be a jerk!" Thank you and have a nice day.

**KvHagedorn** · 9 May 2004, 18:11

Alright.. I'm sorry if I mistook your meaning, Jon. Often it does take a few tries before one finds a community worth joining. I dislike snobs too, and probably would have felt the same as you did about that particular church.

**K6-III** · 9 May 2004, 21:58

Was rather religious as a child...wore thin later and eventually disappeared...

**Fat Tone** · 10 May 2004, 00:19

So now we know another of KvH's buttons

Good jokes Lawrence - they're going straight to my Christian friends

**Brian Ellis** · 10 May 2004, 01:24

I was brought up in a Scottish Presbyterian environment, not quite the hellfire and brimstone of the Wee Frees. I revolted and avoided church/Sunday school most of the time. However, the message I received during my formative years was not about Christianity as is laid out in the New Testament, a God of Love with Jesus as the Great Redeemer. I was intellectually incapable of understanding Christianity as a child, even though I was bright (finished High School at 15 and graduated from Uni a few days before my 19th birthday). I was over 20 before I understood what the true meaning of Christianity was, a way of life, rather than being seen going to church every Sunday, dressed in one's best clobber. I did go to church most Sundays in my 20s, but we had a minister who understood us and understood the meaning of true Christianity - he was also the Presbyterian pastor for Cambridge University, so he understood the needs of elitist students and their problems (I was town, rather than gown, but well assimilated into the gown circles). I then moved back to Edinburgh for a short while and became quite bolshie within the parish church, because it was no more Christian, in the true sense, than Lucifer. The congregation were more interested in Mrs. McGregor's new hat, that Miss Wylie had fallen into the ways of the devil and was beginning to show, that the dominie's sermon was only 40 mnutes today - and boringly trite. I revolted again and wrote the Kirk Session a rant at the fact they were not practising Christianity. Believe it or not, I was called for heresy before the Session, because I dared question the polity of that miserable pretention of a church. I gave them a good John Knox-style sermon calling on them to drop their comfortable middle-class brand of church-going and replace it with going out to the people of the Parish, especially the youth who had no guidance. To no effect. I slowly broke with the formal, established church. A year or so later, I married (and still have the same wife, 45 years later), my wife being an Anglican. I had a look at the Anglican Church and found it no better, probably even worse. In the meanwhile, I tried various other churches; the only one that I could respect was the Society of Friends (Quakers). However, I started a little on studying comparative religion (as an amateur from library books), notably Islam, Judaism and Buddhism. Slowly, it dawned on me that God is simply an omnipresent spirit whose manifestation may vary between the great religions (although Buddhism is not really a religion, so much as a way of life striving for perfection). Jesus became for me a great teacher but his role as redeemer was extremely secondary and much of his life and death became allegorical. I have been to many of the great sites of pilgrimage for Christians, Jews and even two for Muslims (not Mecca!!!) and also some great temples in the Far East. I have prayed in them all but felt no more uplifted, probably less so, than if, as Jesus exhorted, I had gone into a closet at home and prayed privately. In fact, I now find places of worship, of all types, off-putting to a communion with God, which I believe I can have anywhere, any time, if I open my mind to Him. Yes, I appreciate the art and architecture of some places of worship and I find that some religious music is great music, but nothing to do with God. God is within me, as He is within anyone, no matter his formal religion, but He is difficult to find unless you seek Him in privacy. The formal religions, at the best, are moral codes of conduct, not means, per se, to commune with God. At the worst, they cloud the true meaning of God with a lot of pomp and distracting claptrap and misinterpretation of their holy words, which are of human origin and interpreted by very fallible humans.

I don't pretend I have the whole truth but I think can commune with God more easily with my thoughts than with the aid of a priest, minister, imam or whoever. Of one thing I am certain. His spirit is just that and to personify Him (e.g., a bloke with a white beard in heaven) is erroneous. He is a part of us, those who care to accept Him as a spirit to help us in our love for our fellow-humans. When we die, that is it; there is no after-life, no paradise, no purgatory, no hell. My church is within me.

I don't believe any child can understand this - it probably didn't fully occur to me until after fifty years had elapsed; it was a very slow evolutionary process of long and scientific thought, without trappings and without emotion.

I'm sorry that this has turned into a rant. But the jokes are great

**Fat Tone** · 10 May 2004, 01:35

That's an interesting and thought-provoking "rant" Brian. I've not heard your particular conclusions before...most I have spoken to combine beleif in God and an afterlife, as if one were a reward for the other.

It makes your choice of av. even more interesting

**TransformX** · 10 May 2004, 01:40

Brian, if you're looking for a real place of worship, look for some of the older temples on our planet as these were usually built on mountain tops or similarp places with breathtaking view. People who believe in Feng Shui and similar stuff claim those were positioned on energy nexus 'n stuff like this. Practicly, they simply chose the best spot to admire God's/Nature's/______ (fill the blank according to your belief) creation. In such places, one doesn't really need to pray as he's too busy admiring the surrounding.

As far as I know, far easters temples aren't places for one to feel close to god as much as to feel close to one's self. They're more like places for meditation. That's one of the main differences between most far eastern religions/life philosophies vs. western religions.

**SpiralDragon** · 10 May 2004, 03:19

not too religious my self... dont realy like the clergy of any religion... never met a religious man who was realy intreted in "saving your soul" i am aginst the idea of religon... and belive that we as humans have a conection with God/supreem being but it is a personal thing...

been to church as kid... never been to a mosq.. well maybe once at my aubts funaral ... but didnt even go inside... stayed in the court yard..

i have serious problems with clergy of any religion... they all strike me as a bunch of hipocrits... never met one of any religon that i thought "hay this dude is good and worth listening to"....

to me religion is just a nother corporate institution

and please NO MORE feng shui

... my mom is killing me with this stuff...

**GuchiGuh** · 10 May 2004, 03:28

have you ever truly experienced feng shui spiral dragon? Its not just the art of placing your furniture in the right places~

**Brian Ellis** · 10 May 2004, 03:39

Interesting thought, TX. My conclusions were actually founded after much meditation and "soul-searching" (whatever this means). In fact, I believe meditation may be a key to being one with God. Other than within a few of the monastic establishments (e.g., abbeys for Christians, tekkÃ©s for Muslims etc.), the Judeo-Christian-Islamic group of religions (which are basically the same) don't go in much for serious meditation. It may be that this lack of seeking of the inner self (often seeking more mammon) is where the churches etc. have gone wrong as being unable to provide spiritual support to those needing it and unable to find it for themselves.

And yes, I've been on mountain tops with and without temples. I'm usually too puffed to concentrate on a communion with God!!! Unfortunately, I find that beautiful views are also distracting. I'm more at ease in a quiet room, in the dark, or walking along a quiet street at night.

Interestingly, some of the physical attitudes of prayer are perhaps conducive to communion. Perhaps something approaching the lotus position is good, eyes closed, hands in a specified position, sufficiently comfortable that one can lose oneself, but not sufficiently uncomfortable to distract one, yet sufficiently to not fall into a trance or asleep etc. I think kneeling for long periods is not a good position a) because it is uncomfortable after 5 minutes or so and b) it is too reminiscent of human obeisance to superiors and therefore conveys the wrong message.

Just a few km from here is the Monastery of Stavrovouni (Mountain of the Cross) which has been a site of worship since long before the Christian era. Its current buildings are fairly new (13th to 21st centuries, with major fire damage on several occasions. It is built on top of an isolated mountain, from which the view is really magnificent (roughly half the island on a clear day). It is spoilt, for me, as a place of meditation or worship by the Orthodox monks of a very narrow-minded order, within a generally narrow-minded church. Don't get me wrong, I know many orthodox people who aren't narrow-minded and I know a nunnery, 30 km from here, which does inspire meditation by the quietness, peace and generosity/sincerity of the Orthodox nuns.

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