English question

[Umfriend]

OK, got a Q after a discussion with one of my US colleagues. I wrote a sentence:
"Less than 10% is rated sub-investment grade by at least one of Moody’s and S&P."

He suggested to change it to
"Less than 10% is rated sub-investment grade by either Moody's or S&P or both"

I do need to catch the following instances:
1. Moodys' rated sub-inv grade, S&P inv grade
2. S&P rated sub inv grade, Moodys inv grade
3. Moodys' rated sub-inv grade, S&P did not rate
4. S&P rated sub inv grade, Moodys did not rate
5. Moody's rated sub inv grade and S&P did as well.

I think my formulation is much nicer than his, but he disagrees.

[Sasq]

at least one of, would be better if you had more then two possible companies. His suggestion is better for 2 companies.

[Fat Tone]

Or for brevity you could write

"...by Moody's and/or S&P" which means either both or just one of them.

[Brian Ellis]

"Less than 10% is rated sub-investment grade by Moody's or S&P." would possibly be better still. In English, 'or' implies OR and not XOR, so this phraseology would cover all of your examples form 1 to 5. although 'and' would be better if you knew for sure that 1. was correct.

Of the two examples you gave, the either/or/both is better.

Partridge cites an example of 'or' for 'and', so this is a good precedent.

Either ... or ... becomes XOR, as a rule

Least is the superlative of less (less, lesser, least)). When used numerically, this implies a minimum of three options, although the term 'at lesser' is never used in the comparative sense. Many pundits do not like 'at least' to be applied to numerical choices, preferring something like 'a minimum of'. It is preferable to use it only for 'at all events; anyway; even if there is doubt about a more extended statement', e.g., "There is a case for corporal punishment; at least, that is what I believe.".

There is another possibility, although it is not very good English but is acceptable in some non-literary contexts: "Less than 10% is rated sub-investment grade by Moody's and/or S&P.". Partridge detests this expression, which he says started in Whitehall (i.e., UK bureaucratic administration) but the meaning becomes succinctly clear, even if it is bad English.

[GNEP]

Wouldn't it be "Less than 10% are..." because you are presumably talking about companies with a credit rating of BB+/Ba+ or below?

[Podfrog]

i suggest that you not listen to americans in regard to grammar. we don't know anything [except how to gain exorbitant amounts of weight and sue people].

[The PIT]

Originally posted by Podfrog
i suggest that you not listen to americans in regard to grammar. we don't know anything [except how to gain exorbitant amounts of weight and sue people].

LOL

[Umfriend]

OK, I understand that saying "either/or" on itself is a XOR. That is why I don't like to use it because in my case I need the OR and would have to say (A XOR B) OR (A OR B) as in my 2nd example.

Just using "or" is stricly a "OR" I think, but could be misunderstood far too easily (lot of non-english audience potentially).

"and/or" I like actually, because it is short, but I am not sure it is formal enough.

I wonder: "by at least one of Moody's, S&P or Fitch" is OK because there are three? I don't see why it would be better for three but not for two. Of course, to do it in either/or format would require a lot of XOR/OR things to cover all situation I want to cover (which is where at least on of them does it )

But OK, I'll guess I'll go with the either/or/or both then...

GNEP: I think it is "is"; as opposed to "are". Isn't it:
"There IS a number of bonds" instead of "There ARE a number of bonds"? Actually, it refers to A portfolio (i.e. 10% of the portfolio IS) instead of SOME bonds (i.e 10% of the bonds ARE). Am I making sense here ?

Thx a lot guys. If anyone can find me a very good argument to still keep my preference, I'd certainly love to hear it.

[KvHagedorn]

Well, the first problem is that, from the sentence itself, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say this:

Fewer than ten percent of all issues are rated as sub-investment grade by either Moody's or S&P.

or this:

A rating of under ten percent is considered sub-investment grade by either Moody's or S&P.

or even this:

A rating of under ten percent by either Moody's or S&P is considered sub-investment grade.

Do you see the subtle differences in meaning?

I assume from your examples that your meaning is conveyed by my first sentence. The use of either/or is the accepted way to convey all the instances you had mentioned, and even though it seems rigidly to state that only one of the two companies is rating the issue thus, by usage it definitely implies that both may have rated the issue as sub-investment grade. The salient point in any case is really that a rating of "sub-investment grade" by either company would taint the issue, so the use of either/or here is eminently servicable.

Do not use "less than." It is not the proper usage in any case, and is the primary reason your sentence is confusing.

When people can understand exactly what you are trying to say, THAT is the most essential element of good English (or Dutch, or whatever, as the case may be.)

[Brian Ellis]

If it is 10% of a portfolio or a single object, then 'is' is correct. Just replace 10% by one-tenth, to see this. If it's 10% of a plurality of objects, then 'are' is more probably, but not indubitably, correct. This has to be judged on whether the 10 per cent is the subject ('is') or the 10% of the objects ('are'). Illustration: you have 10 apples. 10% of them is an apple. This is actually a very complex subject and whole chapters have been written about the plurality of groups. It is the same as using the plural for a company, a group or a corporation or even a country.

Keep with 'is'.

Incidentally, in English, one doesn't use % in formal text, only per cent or, sometimes, percent.

[KvHagedorn]

Oh, and do NOT use the phraseology you seem bent upon. "At least one of Moody's, S&P, or Fitch" is horrible English. You are trying to complete a prepositional phrase with a choice of objects, and it must have only one. If you must use these terms, the proper way to use them would be as follows.

Fewer than ten percent of all issues are rated as sub-investment grade by at least one of the leading rating companies.

But even here the meaning seems muddled.

[KvHagedorn]

All right, here we go...

Suppose that fewer than ten percent of all issues are rated as sub-investment grade by Moody's and fewer than ten percent of all issues are rated as sub-investment grade by S&P, but more than ten percent of all issues are rated as sub-investment grade by at least one of these two companies?

[Umfriend]

Thx guys. I love this stuff

KvH: I don't think "fewer" is correct here, again because it "less than 10%" tries to say that a (one!) portion of the portfolio is rated bla bla bla. That portion comprises less than 10% of the whole portfolio. I would use "fewer" if I would say "Fewer than 10 per cent of the bonds are bla bla bla". I think it depends on what you refer to, just as with the "is" vs" are" issue above.

And you are right, if the three rating agencies wer involved, I would have said "by at least one of the rating agencies" (and have made certain that it would be clear that for the purpose of this document the universe of rating agencues was limited to those three). I might actually do it that way. Simply "by at least one of the rating agencies", although in the current context that might imply the universe is quite large.....

[Brian Ellis]

Fewer than applies only to numeric values. Less than applies only to non-numeric items.

Are you trying to say it is {fewer than 10) per cent of the items or (less than 10 per cent) of the items? Both are correct but there is a difference of meaning.

[Kooldino]

I think "OR" in the English language by default is INCLUSIVE OR. So you COULD just say "Less than 10% is rated sub-investment grade by Moody’s or S&P."