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JVC JY-HD10 vs. Panasonic AG-DVX100

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  • JVC JY-HD10 vs. Panasonic AG-DVX100

    I'm interested in viewpoints regarding the merits of these two camcorders.

    I read this review of the JY-HD10 by JVC:



    I was struck by this comment from author Steve Mullen:

    "So is 25Mbps DV dead?"

    "Personally, the answer is yes."

    "Like others now used to watching primetime TV, movies, and sports in HD, I've found NTSC simply doesn't have the resolution necessary for viewing on a large screen."

    "I'm looking forward to shooting widescreen in a format that will look great on a big screen."

    On rec.video.desktop, Ron Charles - portugal@3web.net - wrote:

    "1) Build Quality: Much better than I was expecting."

    "The unit I tested came complete with a CaVision Matte Box and was a steal for $6700 CDN (about $4100 USD)."

    "One weird aspect to the camera is that the transport is contained in the rotating hand grip that you use to hold the camera."

    "I didn't like the idea of the transport housing being twisted and turned while in operation, but then again what do I know."

    "2) Image Quality: Darn good for a camera in this price if lighting conditions are correct."

    "This camera proves that a 1 CCD unit can be just as good as 3 CCD in many cases!!!"

    "IMHO not as good in low light as a PD150 or even an AG-DVX100."

    "The non-interchangable lens and optics are made by JVC and this is certainly not their best field."

    "3) Audio Quality: Big mistake using a cheap non-phantom powered dual XLR to mini-jack box on the handle."

    "I hope Beachtek has a good laugh at this one!"

    "4) Nice Extras: Ability to up and down convert between DV, HDV, DVHS and HDVi with the flip of a switch."

    "Uses standard miniDV tapes."

    "Interesting D-VHS and special
    composite outputs."

    "Higher resolution viewfinder than the HD1, lightweight, well balanced, nice feel to the unit in general."

    "Looks damn good with the Matte Box!"

    "5) Accessories: Nice."

    "Uses standard sized filters so that wide angle adapters will be easy to find."

    "I would love to test drive one with a Magiqcam or smaller Steadicam."

    "6) Problems: No current release of FCP3/4 or Avid ExpressDV can handle the newly adopted HDV format."

    "There is, however, a new $1000 plug in (second party) available for Premiere 6.5 which seems to work OK."

    "JVC does not offer a capture deck of this format, so head wear will be heavy, and heads are not covered by the 1-year service contract."

    "6) Conclusions: If you want to be the first one your block to shoot native HDV with real 16:9 and you try hard to avoid bad lighting and audio situations, it's a nice animal, but I'll personally will wait and see what other brands come out with other sub $7500 USD models, perhaps with better optics and audio capabilities."

    I found this review very interesting.

    There's no question, however, that the Panasonic AG-DVX100 is hot:



    I'd love to hear some viewpoints from others.

    Thanks,

    Jerry Jones
    I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

  • #2
    My opinion: HD camcorders are a great toy if you've money to burn or an overwelming need to record "real" 16:9 video. But wtihout a consumer HD distribution format and reasonably priced editing software that really supports "smart render" its pretty much useless to most of us. Unless you are willing to bet this "new standard" will really catch on and want to shoot for "future" distribution formats.

    Untill I see good editing software for these new HD mpeg streams I'll ignore them. Hell, I'm not satisified with any of the MPEG2 editing I've tried so far.

    I'm waiting to see what Sony offers in the rumored VX-3000 (or whatever) then I think my choice will be between closeout priced VX2000, its replacement or the AG-DVX100.

    Low light performance is my key feature so the VX-2000 is the one to beat. DVX-100 claims "below 3 lux", now to find a review that shows VX-2000 vs DVX-100 sample images in the same low-light environment.

    --wally.

    Comment


    • #3
      Looks like the editing problem has been solved for Premiere Pro users:



      A company called CINEFORM has announced a plug-in for Adobe Premiere Pro that claims to offer real-time editing support for footage shot by the JVC JY-HD10 and other high definition camcorders.

      CARLSBAD, Calif. (Jul. 09, 2003) -- CINEFORM, INC today announced that Aspect HD, their software-based real-time high-definition video engine, will support Adobe Premiere Pro and will begin shipping in the 4th quarter this year. Aspect HD provides real-time editing of high-definition content on today's fast PCs.

      Aspect HD begins shipping next month for Adobe Premiere 6.5. Both versions are being demonstrated at DV Expo this week in New York.

      Aspect HD, when combined with Adobe Premiere on today's Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 processor-based PC's is the first and only way to edit high-definition video in real time at a price that is within reach of today's professional videographers.

      CineForm's solution enables wide adoption of HD in the professional videography, corporate and independent film markets by providing a real-time, multi-stream editing solution which is an effective companion to JVC's GR-HD1 and JY-HD10U cameras, as well as to the emerging class of HDV camcorders.

      "CineForm's real-time high-definition technology in Aspect HD will work with Adobe Premiere Pro to provide one of the most powerful, full-featured, and cost-effective solutions for editing high-definition video," said David Trescot, Senior Director of Digital Video at Adobe. "Premiere Pro sets a new standard for editing digital video on the PC and has been redesigned from the ground up to address the needs of video professionals. The technology collaboration of Adobe and CineForm is bringing HD to a whole new set of video professionals."

      "Aspect HD is absolutely break-through technology," said David Taylor, CineForm's CEO. "With today's fast PC's and CineForm's unique technology, HD is no longer limited to high-budget operations. The market for HD just got blown wide open."

      The key to Aspect HD's unmatched editing performance is CineForm's innovative patent-pending technologies including a proprietary symmetric video codec and video effects engine. Using a 2.8GHz Pentium 4 PC with Hyper-Thread technology and a simple RAID 0 configuration, up to four HD streams plus transitions, effects, and motion are possible, all simultaneously, all in real time, and without the need for any specialized hardware. After editing, HD video is easily exported to a wide variety of HD, SD and web distribution formats.

      Pricing and Availability

      Aspect HD for Adobe Premiere 6.5 will be available directly from CineForm for $1200, not including a copy of Premiere. Pricing, packaging, and availability for Aspect HD for Adobe Premiere Pro has not yet been announced, but CineForm will offer an upgrade program for purchasers of Aspect HD for Adobe Premiere 6.5.

      About CineForm

      CineForm, Inc., located in Carlsbad, California develops high performance video technology and products for use in amateur and professional post-production applications. CineForm's products include breakthrough video editing technology and products that target the rapidly emerging market for HD video content creation. For more information, contact CineForm at 760-804-5905, or visit the CineForm web site at www.cineform.com .

      Jerry Jones
      I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

      Comment


      • #4
        I read this commentary on DV.com's camera forum concerning one man's opinion about how the JVC JY-HD10 compares to the Panasonic AG-DVX100:
        __________

        From Barry Green:

        "The DVX100 excels in nearly every category over the JVC except one: resolution. The JVC is capable of producing some stunning high-resolution pictures. Side-by-side, the DVX can look like it's out of focus compared to the sharpness the JVC can produce."

        "However, the JVC provides extremely limited control over its usage: you can't control shutter and iris at the same time, for example."

        "It also suffers from extremely narrow latitude, making controlled lighting situations vital."

        "I can't imagine how a consumer will get good results from it -- you'd have to be a very skilled professional to deliver the goods with this camera."

        "And it can deliver, if you manipulate the circumstances to fall within its happy zone."

        "The comparison I use is that the DVX100 is kind of like a Lexus sedan: fairly quick, smooth, luxurious, etc."

        "The JVC is more like a nitrous-oxide-burning dragster."

        "The dragster will smoke the Lexus at the dragstrip, but the Lexus is basically a "better" vehicle in all other ways."

        "And it's fairly quick too, just not in the same league as the hopped-up dragster."

        "So, pick your preference: versatility, image control, 24P, the best audio system on a sub-$5000 camera, and on and on... or extremely startlingly high resolution?"

        "The choice is yours because the price is about the same, but the cameras really can't be compared on any basis other than price."

        "After spending quite a bit of time with the JVC, my vote is "pass" and wait for something from another manufacturer that addresses the serious ergonomic and control issues that the JVC implementation faces."

        "But HDV can look *very* good."

        Comment


        • #5
          I'd probably pass on the JVC too since its MPEG profile differs from what Sony published as the real profile for HDV. It may have been the prototype for HDV but it doesn't look to be an HDV cam in all aspects. As such we should take the above with a grain of salt.

          My thread on the HDV standard has been updated with the MPEG profile information. Most all of it could be created as a template in MSPro7, but as of now we're stuck with a bitrate of 14000 kbps and an inability to do the proper resolutions.

          If Ulead were to fix this we could have an HDV editor that doesn't need a plugin.

          Dr. Mordrid
          Dr. Mordrid
          ----------------------------
          An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

          I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

          Comment


          • #6
            Doc,

            Yes, yes, yes!!!

            That's what we need.

            Agree 100%.

            Jerry Jones
            I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

            Comment


            • #7
              Back to the camcorder comparison.

              This comment was posted by Jerry R. to the DV.com camera forum:

              "Because of the very high compression used by the HD10 the effective resolution is lower when you try to edit the video."

              "The HD10 is also much less capable as far as image manipulation goes."

              "I would be willing to bet that if you take the same footage from the H10 and the DVX100 manipulate it by deinterlace etc. then upres the DVX100 the DVX100 will look superior."

              "Further when you need to decompress author and recompress as for DVD authoring the DVX100 30p wil be superior to the HD10."

              I don't know if I agree with all of the above - but I can't dispute it either.

              Jerry Jones
              I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd hardly call a $1200 plugin an editing "solution".

                --wally.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, it's expensive.

                  But it's the price of admission - currently.

                  Jerry Jones
                  I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And it shows the flexibilty of MSPro vs. other products given how few changes need to be made to get it up & running with HDV That short GOP would also make it easier to do smartrender with its MPEG's as well.

                    Dr. Mordrid
                    Dr. Mordrid
                    ----------------------------
                    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I found this PDF file:



                      In HD mode:

                      MPEG-2 TS(GOP=6)

                      In SD mode:

                      MPEG-2 TS(GOP=12)

                      Audio appears to be the same in either mode:

                      - MPEG-1 Layer2
                      - 2ch (16bit) 48kHz
                      - 384kbps

                      Ah - ok - now I see the video bitrate listed as follows:

                      ***19.7*** Mbps Transport Stream (MTRM Standard compatible with D-VHS)

                      This is apparently the same for both HD and SD modes.

                      Interesting.

                      Jerry Jones

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Different from what Sony posted as regards bitrates and the 12 GOP for SD. It'll shake out, but either way Ulead needs to get cracking.

                        Dr. Mordrid
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Without a valid distribution format, why pay the price of admission? IF what Doc says is right about the MPEG profiles this JVC camcorder may quickly end up an orphan.

                          Don't get me wrong I'm excited by the possibility of better quality video but without a higher quality distribution format what's the point?

                          --wally.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This is where Doc needs to step in and provide us with a good link that explains the Windows Media encoding option.

                            Right, Doc?

                            :-)

                            Encode the high definition video using a high quality variant of Windows Media for distribution on DVD.

                            A sane option?

                            Or too much hassle?

                            Jerry Jones
                            I found a great domain name for sale on Dan.com. Check it out!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The reason for the WMV HD encoding option is simple; file size.

                              2 hours of HD content encoded to DVD spec'ed MPEG-2 will not fit on the current DVD disks that use the current 450nm lasers with high quality. It will fit on 405 nm blue laser DVD's, but these are not on the street and there will be another format fight if things continue as they have been going. Also a huge concern is the cost of upgrading DVD production facilities to blue laser tech.

                              Seeing this the DVD Forum passed a new standard to allow deck makers to put in a new feature: HD content encoded as MPEG-4, which will fit on the current DVD's.

                              What most people don't know is that the MPEG-4 profiles we are used to are mostly Low profiles at Low levels. On these HD-WMV disks the encoding will be at a Main level/Main Profile, which will up the qualiy enough to be satisfactory for home theater use.

                              EE Times did a story on this in 2002;



                              Sigma Designs and others will be producing MPEG-4 HDTV decoder chips for the decks;

                              カマグラゴールド100mgは本物のバイアグラと同じ効果を持つ正規ジェネリック品です。海外からの通販商品ではありますが10数年の長い実績のあり三越屋としても品質の保証が出来る信頼性が高い製品です。


                              The Chinese usual suspects and others will be the first producing the decks. Philips has added MPEG-4 to their reference design.

                              Dr. Mordrid
                              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 10 July 2003, 11:52.
                              Dr. Mordrid
                              ----------------------------
                              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                              Comment

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