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Ajax
28th May 2003, 10:18
Language Police (http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/05/28/life.language.reut/index.html)

WTF?

Dr Mordrid
28th May 2003, 10:19
Don't ask. My wife is a teacher and you wouldn't believe what's going on in both lesson plans (such as they are) and textbooks.

And people wonder why home schooling is taking off like a rocket...

Dr. Mordrid

Ajax
28th May 2003, 10:23
Who decides what is "proper" for my children to learn?

Topha
28th May 2003, 10:27
:D

I knew it. I just knew. Finally everyone is getting crazy, supported by our governments. :D

I know some of you may not find this funny, but I certainly do.

Brian R.
28th May 2003, 10:42
'The Older Person and the Water'

LOL

High_Jumbllama
28th May 2003, 11:01
What about religious schools?

"Hell" has to be available there.

HedsSpaz
28th May 2003, 11:08
I don't find this funny in the least. Scary most definately, but hardly funny. Every time I see something like this the frightening potential of Orwell's vision of the future becomes a step closer to reality. Lets hope that current and subsequent generations wake up and start to react against foolishness like this.

Ian

Dr Mordrid
28th May 2003, 11:17
Your Orwellian reference is very appropriate. One huge problem in many districts is the re-wording of books and textbooks to eliminiate words or concepts that aren't PC from one point of view or another.

Since the pressure for this is coming from both political extremes you end up with literary mush.

Dr. Mordrid

Strahd
28th May 2003, 11:46
That reminds me of George Carlin:



For some reason, it just keeps getting worse. I'll give you an example of that. There's a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It's when a fighting person's nervous system has been stressed to it's absolute peak and maximum. Can't take anymore input. The nervous system has either (click) snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shell shock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables, shell shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago. Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along and very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn't seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shell shock! Battle fatigue. Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, were up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It's totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car. Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we've added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I'll bet you if we'd of still been calling it shell shock, some of those Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I'll betcha. I'll betcha.

But. But, it didn't happen, and one of the reasons. One of the reasons is because we were using that soft language. That language that takes the life out of life. And it is a function of time. It does keep getting worse. I'll give you another example. Sometime during my life. Sometime during my life, toilet paper became bathroom tissue. I wasn't notified of this. No one asked me if I agreed with it. It just happened. Toilet paper became bathroom tissue. Sneakers became running shoes. False teeth became dental appliances. Medicine became medication. Information became directory assistance. The dump became the landfill. Car crashes became automobile accidents. Partly cloudy bacame partly sunny. Motels became motor lodges. House trailers became mobile homes. Used cars became previously owned transportation. Room service became guest-room dining. And constipation became occasional irregularity. When I was a little kid, if I got sick they wanted me to go to the hospital and see a doctor. Now they want me to go to a health maintenance organization...or a wellness center to consult a healthcare delivery professional. Poor people used to live in slums. Now the economically disadvantaged occupy substandard housing in the inner cities. And they're broke! They're broke! They don't have a negative cash-flow position. They're ****ing broke! Cause a lot of them were fired. You know, fired. management wanted to curtail redundancies in the human resources area, so many people are no longer viable members of the workforce.

Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that. The CIA doesn't kill anybody anymore, they neutralize people...or they depopulate the area. The government doesn't lie, it engages in disinformation. The pentagon actually measures nuclear radiation in something they call sunshine units. Israeli murderers are called commandos. Arab commandos are called terrorists. Contra killers are called freedom fighters. Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part of it to us, do they? Never mention that part of it.


And



But, when it comes to changing the language, I think they make some good points, because we do think in language and so the quality of our thoughts and ideas could only be as good as the quality of our language. So maybe some of this patriarcho shit ought to go away. I think spokesman ought to be spokesperson. I think chairman ought to be chairperson. I think mankind ought to be human kind, but they take it too far, they take themselves too seriously, they exaggerate. They want me to call that thing in the street a personhole cover. I think that's taking it a little bit too far. What would you call a lady's man, a person's person? That would make a He-man an It-person. Little kids would be afraid of the boogieperson. They'd look up in the sky and see the person in the moon. Guys would say come back here and fight like a person. And we'd all sing "for it's a jolly good person." That's the kind of thing you would hear on late-night with David Letterperson.

Kooldino
28th May 2003, 12:13
Originally posted by Brian R.
'The Older Person and the Water'

LOL

LOL.

Kooldino
28th May 2003, 12:24
Strahd - LOL, i love that last paragraph!

Jon P. Inghram
28th May 2003, 12:31
I wonder how long before they ban 1984 from public libraries?

High_Jumbllama
28th May 2003, 12:44
WTF! I just thought of this. How the **** can you ban the word "old"? That must outlaw all history textbooks? Are the words modern and young banned as well? Absolute ****ing morons. I am not trying to be funny with my word choices. It's jsut what came to mind.

High_Jumbllama
28th May 2003, 12:51
Originally posted by Strahd
That reminds me of George Carlin:



. . . *Snip* . . .

But, when it comes to changing the language, I think they make some good points, because we do think in language and so the quality of our thoughts and ideas could only be as good as the quality of our language. So maybe some of this patriarcho shit ought to go away. I think spokesman ought to be spokesperson. I think chairman ought to be chairperson. I think mankind ought to be human kind, but they take it too far, they take themselves too seriously, they exaggerate. They want me to call that thing in the street a personhole cover. I think that's taking it a little bit too far. What would you call a lady's man, a person's person? That would make a He-man an It-person. Little kids would be afraid of the boogieperson. They'd look up in the sky and see the person in the moon. Guys would say come back here and fight like a person. And we'd all sing "for it's a jolly good person." That's the kind of thing you would hear on late-night with David Letterperson.

Exactly! I could not agree more.

Accuracy has been completely taken over by sanitation. War, genocide, "shell shock", etc . . . should sound traumatic. They are. We should be afraid so we know they are traumatic and to avoid them in the future.

Strahd
28th May 2003, 12:56
So you would have to ban old, ancient, decrepid, senile etc.

High_Jumbllama
28th May 2003, 13:03
aged, ancient, broken down, debilitated, decrepit, deficient, doddering, elderly, enfeebled, exhausted, experienced, fossil, geriatric, getting on, gray, gray-haired, grizzled, hoary, impaired, inactive, infirm, mature, matured, not young, olden, oldish, patriarchal, seasoned, senile, senior, skilled, superannuated, tired, venerable, versed, veteran, wasted

aboriginal, age-old, antediluvian, antiquated, antique, archaic, bygone, cast-off, crumbling, dated, decayed, done, démodé, early, erstwhile, former, hackneyed, hoary, immemorial, late, moth-eaten, of old, of yore, old-fashioned, old-time, olden, oldfangled, once, onetime, original, outdated, outmoded, passe, past, primeval, primitive, primordial, pristine, quondam, relic, remote, rusty, sometime, stale, superannuated, time-worn, traditional, unfashionable, unoriginal, venerable, worn-out





Ooops. I am such a horrible person. :mad:

Jon P. Inghram
28th May 2003, 13:24
Originally posted by High_Jumbllama
****, *******, ****** ****, ***********, ********, *********, *********, *******, *********, *********, ***********, ******, *********, ******* ** ****, ****-******, ********, *****, ********




Ooops. I am such a ******** person. :***:

High_Jumbllama
28th May 2003, 13:57
Reminds me of the bad word list I use to have to deal with for word games that I was testing at my last job. I learned some new ones those days. :D

Technoid
28th May 2003, 14:00
2004 is drawing closer :devious:
Orwell just set the date 20 years to early :p

KRSESQ
28th May 2003, 19:23
The heck with textbooks. Go straight to the original source. Cut out the middle-person!

Kevin

PS: Is it me or has George Carlin gotten really, really bitter in his old age?

KvHagedorn
28th May 2003, 19:38
They will soon start to ban and burn the originals, too. This is the evil that is multiculturalism. It is absolute in its evil, because the effect is not "multi-cultures" but non-culture, the denial of culture, the supression of and attempt to deny the existence of most especially the dominant culture, that of Western Europe, the culture that BUILT America. It's not funny in the least.. It is a threat to truth, a threat to everything. Anyone who does not see the seriousness of this is profoundly foolish. :mad:

Brian Ellis
29th May 2003, 00:10
France has a different kind of language police. Yes, it is policed with policepersons, real live cops. And you can get arrested and fined or imprisoned for violations. So what is the sin? Not protecting them against politically incorrect words, but against foreign words, notably English.

In any modern, living language, we adopt foreign words if we don't find the mot juste. Not the French, if they can help it. In nearly every language in the world, for example, the word for software is, er, well, software. Except French. In France, they have bastardised 'logiciel' and this is even worse. The word 'logiciel' used to be the masculine adjective describing semantic logic. The equivalent for mathematical logic is 'logisticiel' and if they had to bastardise a word, it should have been that, logiciellement. I bet you don't know what a CD-ROM is in French: a 'cédérom' (at least it is pronounced +/- similarly), but a CD is 'un disque compact', CD being on the proscribed list of foreign words. Of course, these things don't go in a PC or a personal computer but they are used in your ordinateur personnel. It doesn't stop at your technical language. The English word bacon is derived from a similar French word, which fell into disuse. Now, it is forbidden to label 'lard fumé' as bacon, even though it is one and the same thing and bacon IS a French word.

So, what do the language police do: they examine all commercial literature (brochures, prospectus, data sheets, softwares, specifications, instruction manuals, even invoices and 'bulletins de livraison'. All these items must be in approved French (if there are translations into other languages, as well, that is OK, but the proper French language must be there. Woe betide the person who has accidentally permitted a single English or German word to slip in his text. Even if there is not an equivalent in French, you have to make up a circumlocution, rather than use a foreign word. So, the next time you fancy a sirloin steak in Paris, you have to order 'un bifteck coupé dans l'aloyau' (of course, I daren't mention that 'un bifteck' is a corruption of the English 'beefsteak', in case it gets replaced by 'tranche de boeuf' :) )

And, yes, people are taken to court and sanctioned for infringements, every day.

LvR
29th May 2003, 00:39
"Mag die lede van die taal-polisie se armholtes almal permanent besmet raak met die luise van n duisend kamele" - now there - have the language police sort that out. :p

Brian Ellis
29th May 2003, 00:56
I'd need the light from a thousand camels to understand it! :p

Topha
29th May 2003, 03:04
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
They will soon start to ban and burn the originals, too. This is the evil that is multiculturalism. It is absolute in its evil, because the effect is not "multi-cultures" but non-culture, the denial of culture, the supression of and attempt to deny the existence of most especially the dominant culture, that of Western Europe, the culture that BUILT America. It's not funny in the least.. It is a threat to truth, a threat to everything. Anyone who does not see the seriousness of this is profoundly foolish. :mad:

What is it with you and multiculturalism? :confused:

And I do take this seriousliy, but thats no reason not to laugh about it.

Brian Ellis
29th May 2003, 03:44
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
They will soon start to ban and burn the originals, too. This is the evil that is multiculturalism. It is absolute in its evil, because the effect is not "multi-cultures" but non-culture, the denial of culture, the supression of and attempt to deny the existence of most especially the dominant culture, that of Western Europe, the culture that BUILT America. It's not funny in the least.. It is a threat to truth, a threat to everything. Anyone who does not see the seriousness of this is profoundly foolish. :mad:

Sorry, this is a load of pure and simple bollocks, worthy of Adolf Hitler's "pure Aryan race" policy. The Western European culture is a result of multiculturism with many languages coming from Sanskrit (Perso-Indian) and other aspects coming from Judeo-Christian philosophies, science from North Africa and China admixed with other cultures from the Huns, the Goths, the Visigoths, the Mongolians, the Turks, all in the last 2000 years and many others before that. Even today, there is no one Western European culture; there are hundreds.

Anyone who closes his mind to pluriculturism is as if he were blind. If he preaches this as an evangelist preaches the Word, then he may become a fanatic. The arrogance of fanaticism is today's evil, not the broadmindedness of those who can see farther than the tip of their noses. And this last sentence is addressed to fanatics of all flavours, whether he be a Protestant in Northern Ireland, a Taliban in Afghanistan, a member of the Likud, a Palestinian freedom-fighter, a Congolese cannibal, a Saudi terrorist or even a red-necked Southern Baptist, supporting the Ku Klux Klan or a Macarthyist witchhunting communists (who also are developing a rich culture of their own). I am intolerant of intolerance.

You, in the USA, have a wonderfully rich heritage-in-the-making, simply because you are a pluricultural country, even more so than Western Europe. Please don't waste your opportunity by narrowmindedness. And narrowmindedness includes stupid restrictions on language in the name of political correctness.

It reminds me of an ad that appeared in a UK newspaper, shortly after a law was passed proclaiming sexual equality:
Wanted, female or male models for catalogue photographs of bras... (the wording may not be exact, but the meaning is) :D

KvHagedorn
29th May 2003, 04:17
Calling it "bollocks" and using cheap defamation tactics is not an argument. Neither is the rest of your post.

That said, I admit I did not make much argument, either. But I don't feel like elaborating.. it's just pointless.

Topha
29th May 2003, 05:02
Quoting Nigel Powers: "There is two things in this world I can't stand. People being intolerant of other peoples culture, and the Dutch!"


:D

sorry, couldnt resist after reading your post, Brian. Nice post, btw, especially the bit about fanaticism. I want to add that fanaticism usually spawns from fear and uncertainties, just like intolerance, war etc. etc.

:(

Strahd
29th May 2003, 06:17
Originally posted by Brian Ellis
Except French. In France, they have bastardised 'logiciel' and this is even worse. The word 'logiciel' used to be the masculine adjective describing semantic logic. The equivalent for mathematical logic is 'logisticiel' and if they had to bastardise a word, it should have been that, logiciellement. I bet you don't know what a CD-ROM is in French: a 'cédérom' (at least it is pronounced +/- similarly), but a CD is 'un disque compact', CD being on the proscribed list of foreign words. Of course, these things don't go in a PC or a personal computer but they are used in your ordinateur personnel. It doesn't stop at your technical language. The English word bacon is derived from a similar French word, which fell into disuse. Now, it is forbidden to label 'lard fumé' as bacon, even though it is one and the same thing and bacon IS a French word.



I'm not quite sure I get what you are saying. The French have bastardized the word logiciel. Why? Why should the French HAVE TO call a CD a CD. Should it be called a COMPACT DISK with a French accent or should they call it what it is? Un disque compacte. Perhaps the French should also stop calling french fries des patates frite and start calling them freedom fries.

I know, why don't the French change all the words they use, to our English equivalents? Cause then Brian, you may stand the chance of being as fluent in French as myself .:rolleyes:

Oh and you know how the Germans say thank you? You're no gonna believe this one, but they don't say thank you, they say Danke. And don't get me started on the Spanish and Italian.

Topha
29th May 2003, 06:31
He's saying that the french have a very drastical way of keeping their language the way it is, not accepting assimilation of words from the other language, like everyone in germany is saying computer, internet, homepage etc., and everyone in america saying kindergarden, leitmotiv, gesundheit etc.

Gurm
29th May 2003, 06:59
Drastical.

*smirk*

Engrish.

- Gurm

Strahd
29th May 2003, 07:08
Each language has it's own name for car parts, why shouldn't computers be the same?

Why do we call it french toast then? It's pain doré. Why did the english language change it. Cause by not changing it, your bastardizing your own language.

Gurm
29th May 2003, 07:25
Let's get back on topic.

The topic is that if I ever meet one of these so-called "sensitivity police", I will kill them.

- Gurm

Strahd
29th May 2003, 07:36
Originally posted by Gurm
Let's get back on topic.

The topic is that if I ever meet one of these so-called "sensitivity police", I will kill them.

- Gurm

LOL

We have language police here too. But it's a little different. You can't put up an english sign. You can put up a Chinese or German sign, but it can't be english. They go around into companies and make sure all signs are in French. When I was younger, I worked in a hotel and we used a log book to communicate information to everyone. Before they invested in computers. There wasn't 1 french person but they almost forced us to write in french when using this log book.

Byock
29th May 2003, 07:37
You have got to be kidding me. The history that was taught when I was in school was horrible, this will litter it with inaccuracies. This is intolerable! Why even bother teaching? Is this nothing more than to give Jay funnier answers to his Jay walking segment? :rolleyes:

Admiral
29th May 2003, 07:45
Each language has it's own name for car parts, why shouldn't computers be the same?

The problem here is enforcing.
Let people determine what they want to use, if they find a similar word in their own language to suit the purpose or simply take the foreign word as it is and use it.

here we call a keyboard "tastaturã"
a motherboard "placã de baza"
soundcard "placã de sunet"
videocard "placã video"
speakers "boxe"
.....

though a mouse is a mouse and same thing goes for e-mail, browser, hard disk, CD-ROM, CD, monitor...

Some copycat idiot senator here managed to partially shove down our throats a law simmilar to the French one. Though the ordinary citizen doesn't give a damn about it and the police doesn't give a damn about applying it.

Brian Ellis
29th May 2003, 09:04
Strahd

You do not get the point at all. I have no objection to the French calling a software un logiciel, even if it is etymologically incorrect. They can call it what they like. What I object to is a) they have no right, in law, to write it as a software or "un soft", as is commonly used orally, and b) they need a police to enforce that it be not so done. Any more that I think les Québecois should discriminate against only one language, even when that language is the mother tongue of a large part of the population. It is pure and simple racism. In a free society, one should be allowed to use whatever language one pleases (even bad language :) ) for non-official purposes.

And I lived in a francophone country for 35 years, where there was linguistic tolerance.

MultimediaMan
29th May 2003, 11:21
[politically correct rant]

As far as the person known as Matthew W. Helton is concerned, they can all congregate together, consume waste products and expire.

May the Prime Builder cast those male offspring of unwed parental units' filthy life essences into the farthest reaches of the void.

[/politically correct rant off]

They seek to tear asunder the purity of written works whose authors sought to convey the reader to another place and time, yet they try their hardest to remove even the semblance of setting, plot and substance. I will make sure none of these publishers see a dime from those schools in my district.

How can you read the book 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea after such filtering? Wuthering Heights? Treasure Island? None of those stories would in the least capture my fancy after any kind of editing.

Topha
29th May 2003, 11:32
Originally posted by MultimediaMan
[politically correct rant]

As far as the person known as Matthew W. Helton is concerned, they can all congregate together, consume waste products and expire.

May the Prime Builder cast those male offspring of unwed parental units' filthy life essences into the farthest reaches of the void.

[/politically correct rant off]

They seek to tear asunder the purity of written works whose authors sought to convey the reader to another place and time, yet they try their hardest to remove even the semblance of setting, plot and substance. I will make sure none of these publishers see a dime from those schools in my district.

How can you read the book 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea after such filtering? Wuthering Heights? Treasure Island? None of those stories would in the least capture my fancy after any kind of editing.

The problem is not that they edit books, which they are not doing yet (I think), but that they keep their school books (e.g. History) clean of anything that might cause controversy :rolleyes:

And thats although Mr. Smith already said that human beings dont accept a perfect world ;) j/k