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KvHagedorn
9th March 2003, 16:48
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6485

Pace
9th March 2003, 17:00
Multi-culturism sounds nice though - but it's too often used as a buzzword to gain votes - and earn money.

Pym Fortuyn certainly sounded like a reasonable chap...

KvHagedorn
9th March 2003, 17:29
Multiculturalism is a deep and abiding wrong. It is a lie.

It's trite, but true.. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Unbridled freedom is not good.. it is absolute neutrality. To proclaim neutrality by seeking unbridled freedom is to reject the good which is offered. In rejecting good, a fertile ground for evil emerges.

We are talking about a small country which was homogeneously Germanic barely 50 years ago. In the name of freedom these people are committing self-genocide. Do none of them care?

Those who do not stand against this invasion are standing FOR genocide... their own.

KvHagedorn
9th March 2003, 19:11
Tolerance for Intolerance?

http://www.partisanreview.org/archive/2002/3/bawer.html

bambam
11th March 2003, 10:10
Those who do not stand against this invasion are standing FOR genocide... their own.

Wow, that is the openly racist thing I have ever read on this site. Why don't you join some like-minded club, like the Hitler Youth. Unreal.

The PIT
11th March 2003, 10:38
Funny my old landlord said basically the same thing and he was err Asian and Err Muslim. Strangly when he says such comments people listen but if you say the same thing and your white you're a racist.
He also said we're stupid by the way.

Gurm
11th March 2003, 10:54
Yup.

While I disapprove of KvH's level of vehemence, I have to say that there is a problem. Not a racial problem, nor a tolerance problem, but a very real problem nonetheless. But it's a tricky situation.

Basically, a country has to be for or against certain things. Holland has, in recent history, been FOR sexual liberation and the safe use of non-dangerous drugs (let's NOT start a new argument about pot and hash PLEASE?).

The United States is FOR personal freedoms, with a few notable exceptions (like the freedom to sell your body or the freedom to toke up).

Muslims, sadly, are AGAINST the ideals of both of these countries.

So the question is, how do you go about making sure that there is not a Muslim majority to vote out all these ideals and freedoms... without doing something perceived as nasty, like not allowing in any more Muslims?

Sadly, it's looking more and more like you need to... not allow in any more Muslims. Sorry.

- Gurm

The PIT
11th March 2003, 11:00
Just imagine the outcry if someone like Oliver Cromwell came to power in the UK.

Gurm
11th March 2003, 11:17
LOL. Yeah well.

SpiralDragon
11th March 2003, 13:21
while i disagree with KVH i have to say that politics and religion should never mix.... back here in leb we have a very big problem... two main religions (christianity and islam) and several sects... our president by law has to be a maronite christian, the PM a suni muslim and the head of parlamint a shiiat muslim... with several of the higher cabinet ministers being christian.... MP elections are based one religion... so and so seets in this area for marointes, orthodox, suni, shiiait, druz... etc..... belive me when i tell you that when it comes to rule of law it is so damnd hard to get anything right..... asid from the deap level of curuption in there.... its bad... out right bad for a state not to retain secular laws....

it reminds me of the time when govt was going to legalise civil mariage.... the majority of the MPs voted against it, the religous leaders of all sides joined aginst it... but did anyone realy care about what the people wanted... NO.... they just went on and did it..... no civil mariage... no choice..... and they keep on bragong about how leb is a "democratic" country... (my a$$)

any way the point of this is that it dosent mater if its the muslims or the christians or who ever it is trying to inforce sharia or laws based on religious belifes... it is not right... not in this age.... and that my freinds cant be altered with war or weapons or viloence... the only thing that can change this is FREE HIGH QULITY EDUCATION.... instead of teaching religion in schools (as is done in sever schools here) teach about the difrent religions.... teach about culture and how to be a cultured person with a rich background instead of going for that we arabs or we europeans or we americans etc. bullshit.... the world is converging we are becoming a globale vilage and with that process our cultures to have to converge too.... resistance is futile it will only creat unnecesary complications..... teach people how to keep religion a mater of self and god instead of nation and god... seperate realigion from politics for good ... and racisem too... and then go about bulding a healthy world.......


then again i have always ben a dreamer and an idealist... but unlike most of you here i have lived through war propagated by so caled "religious" bullshit reasons, the greater half of my life and belive you me... after having read and studied the history bloody history of my country (several civil wars dating as far back as the 16ths century and more) i have come to one conlusion.... the out come is always the same...... FAILIUR..... no one ever wins.... but every one looses.... and then they fight again.... and again ... and yet again.... and in peace they never ever try to realy fix the problem once and forall... no on the countrary they just build up more reasons for the next war..... to hell with war i say... and to hell with religion and religious liers.. oups... leaders... and to hell with the politicians who are only intrested in power and money.......



ok i have said enugh and too much and maybe off topic to ... but i am pissed at a few insidents that hapned recently at uni and i am venting here......

sory folkes... bare with me

thop
11th March 2003, 13:49
It's not like the western world is exactly overrun by muslims :rolleyes:, they are still outnumbered probably 100:1 - and this is not gonna change anytime soon.
The muslim world will sooner adopt the western culture than we theirs. Anyone thinking otherwise is paranoid. I have spoken :)

dZeus
11th March 2003, 15:37
lol, what kind of sensationalist crap did KvH post this time? Let's see

There's only a very very small muslim extremists group who tell the stuff posted in the article. Of course, sadly enough, they are the most vocal as well.

But.... they don't seem to have much infuence at all on other muslims.

btw. AEL is, imho, a reactionary movement to a Belgian/flemmish political party called 'Vlaams Blok' which builds its popularity on xenophobism but recently got rid of their anti-semitic 'elements' to please potential voters form the jewist district in Antwerpen, where the majority of Vlaams Blok voters live. (as a reaction to AEL).

I don't see the AEL getting any votes in this country, as there hasn't been much of a 'muslim witch hunt' here since 9/11.

Umfriend
11th March 2003, 17:01
OK, on the inital artivle referred to by KvH, my gawd, where to begin...

Readers may recall the assassination about a year ago of gay activist Pym Fortuyn Ė a politician often labeled a "hard right-winger" by the fascist lefty media. Far from being a rightist, even in the most generalized sense, Fortuyn feared that Muslim immigrants were getting far too loud a voice in Dutch politics, and he campaigned, and gained widespread support, on a platform of limiting, or stopping entirely, Muslim immigation and opposing any further concessions.First of all, I can see now where KvH gets the notion of media being biased from. Nice catchy characterisation "fascitst lefty media", isn't it? It is BS none the less. Pim Fortuyn was a right winger. What's wrong with that? None of the Dutch media attacked him for being right wing (and bear in mind, right wing is different here than it is in the US probably). He was a right winger. That is why his party was able to form a coalition with another right wing party and a central-to-right wing christen-democrat party. He did not say the Muslims were getting too loud a voice in politics. What he DID say was that the pace at which immigrants intergrated was far too slow. He did not want too limit immigration of Muslims per se, but of people who would increase the problem of integration in the Netherlands. He was very much concerned about how Muslims viewed women and homosexuals, that is true. BTW, this was not his MAIN topic, he had no MAIN topic. He had four very important issues, and was mostly at a loss exactly how to deal with them (this doesn't do him right as he deserves exactly, but he, English is hard for me).

PF was not murdered by a Muslim, or someome of any other ethnic background. A sound real deal Dutch man is going to trial for this murder. It's not entirely clear, but it seems asif this whole immigrant thing did not have anything to do with it.


Opponents, predictably, accused him of racism, a charge he effortlessly felledVery few opponents have accused him of racism, and the ones that did, did so for a short time only.

Furthermore, as far as I know, nor the AEL, nor the AEL-NL are on any shortlist of terrorist organisations, except for Mr. Horowitz his own. Students have caused riots far larger than the AEL in Europe, often for less reason.

While he was on a roll, he also demanded that Islamic holidays be declared public holidays in the Netherlands and that Turkish and Arabic make an appearance for selection in the public schoolsí curriculum for national examsSo? What is the problem of having these up for selection exactly? We can choose French, German, Spanish (some schools) and Frisian :eek:. For all I care, we add Japanese, Swahili and Martian as well. I honestly do not have a recoleection of the AEL-NL pushing for declaring Islamic holidays as public holidays. May have missed that. So? A bunch of weird guys are going for some weird stuff...happens all the time.


But then, never let it be said that the Dutch government banned anything. They have legalized drugs, they have legalized euthanesia. You name it, Hollandís got it. So now itís got an official, legal terrorist organization dedicate to erasing all these typical Dutch freedoms and the Dutch way of life. Can tolerance go any further?So wait, we legalise all these things because we are liberal, but we would allow others to take it away from us? One sentence: GET REAL!. Our christian parties of course were opposed to all these things. Again, show me where the AEL or AEL-NL are noted as terrorist organisations? SOund nice though, doesn't it? "They have this, they have that, [B]and now....[/B/


The Dutch AEL press officer NaVma Elmaslouhi, for example was quoted as telling Saturdayís Handelsblad newspaper in advance of Sundayís inaugural meeting of the Dutch AEL that she didnít disapprove of Moroccan youngsters chanting "Hamas, Hamas, gas the Jews," as happened during a protest march in Amsterdam in 2002. Right, she did, and guess what the reaction of the lefty liberal fascist stupid moronic imbecile docile media was? Of the politicians and of a number of Muslim organisations representing a lot of Muslims in the Netherlands? She took it back before the monday paper was out, and no, this will not be easily forgotten by the lefty fascist media, no matter how forgiving you think they are towards Muslims.
As a side note, we have a soccer club in the Netherlands called Ajax. Pre WWII this was known as a club with a lot of jewish members. Nowadays, the supporters call themselves "super-jews". The frase "Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het Gas" (yeah, it rhymes in Dutch....) was initially coined by soccer fans of other soccer clubs, and guess what, they weren't friggin Muslims....

The funniest thing is, most of what PF has been saying about integration of ethnic groups, has been argued by the Socialist Party as of the beginning of the 80's. One thing that made it hard for them to make their case (aside from being very small at the time) was that at the same time we actually did have a racist party running in the elections that were shouting, deluding, generalising, implying and insinuating in the same way as dear Mr. Horowitz. This has made any sound decent discussion on this topic very hard at the time. If there is one thing PF did accomplish than it is that we can actually discuss these things soundly. It takes an ****olum like Mr. Horowitz to polarise and abstruct this.
Umf

Oh, it is late. Did not get round to that Bruce Bawer guy. Should I meet him I would kick his ass. That guy is great at quoting like minded people and substaniating this with inaccurate assesments of actual facts. Twisting and melding the truth until it suits.

KvHagedorn
11th March 2003, 17:47
I'm sorry if I have seemed rabid, but when reading stuff like this, it is difficult not to respond..


Then, in September 2001 (only five days, in fact, before the destruction of the World Trade Center), the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants?a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (who was described as having "lived for many years in Muslim countries") as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape." The professor?s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

This sort of attitude is totally out of hand. A Norwegian professor telling Norwegian women they will just have to put up with being raped in the name of multiculturalism. What sort of a person could possibly be this twisted?

Umfriend
11th March 2003, 23:13
Indeed, I feel the same hardship as you do. Why on earth do these people like Bruce Bawer publish this kind of bullshit? I've skimmed over what he had to say on the Netherlands, and it is nicely construed biased propoganda. It is based on a number of commonplaces about the Netherlands which are only half true, added some inaccaruate (to say the least) reports on events and/or people and, of course, there is the shocking first hand experience that the author has and makes his story truthfull.
I like the bit about where this guy jumps from the Netherlands to Afghanistan, Saudi-Arabia and Iran. That actually makes as much sense as talking about them darned Irish Catholics in the US, I mean, look at what they've done in Northern Ireland?
I doubt this quote by same said person, to say the least. Any one out there that could get me that article?
KvH, I got burned once when I reacted to a quote you made in MURC, which I assumed you agreed with (otherwise, why quote if you do not comment on it). So I'm gonna ask you. Do you believe these guys Horowitz and Bawer? Let's limit this to what they say about the Netherlands, do you believe it? Do you agree with their statements? I'd really, really, like to know what you think about the Horowitz article now.
Umf

KvHagedorn
11th March 2003, 23:51
It certainly rings true given other information I have heard over the past couple of years. A personal friend from Holland (his family are devout Dutch-Reformed Christians) who now lives here tells me it has changed so much there recently that he doesn't really feel like moving back. He was attacked by a gang of Turks on his very doorstep, and he lives in a relatively small town. His friends there feel the intrusion of alien culture as well.. they don't like it. One of his friends was reacting to a new mosque that was being built in their small, quiet town.. he said he was going to take out that speaker with a brick when they started blaring their middle eastern music out into the public street.

I have no reason to doubt that that quote above is genuine either. Aftenposten and Dagbladet are Norwegian news sources I have heard of, but am not familiar with their reputations. I have no reason not to believe that this professor is real and said the things he did.. it is believable, though, from what I have heard elsewhere. People in Europe are quite naive about the problem of multiculturalism. Cohabitation with very different cultures is a relatively new thing there. You will all just have to learn the hard way, I suppose. Idealism and reality are just not the same thing. You guys who do not care about the survival of your people and culture just baffle me.. how can you care so much about material things and not care about this? Is it simply that political correctness has frightend most of you into submission? Is it that the naive young women you want to go out with are the typical unrealistic idealists such women tend to be, and you can't bring yourself to think they could be wrong? Or do you just not have the capacity to look at the demographic trends and REALIZE that you are being displaced in your own small country.. that all you have worked for as a people is about to be utterly wiped out? Fifty years is not that long a time, and if the trends continue, you WILL be displaced.

But like I said.. I guess nobody cares.

The PIT
12th March 2003, 00:09
A good read about race relations is the Bradford report. The report has been put together by people from all ethnic backgrounds. The fact that it was put together by these people mean't that the do gooders couldn't label it racist trash so they hid it instead.
It's a large pdf but does outline the problems very well. Try searching for it and see if you can find it.

KvHagedorn
12th March 2003, 00:27
Thanks for that info, TP..

I'm sorry I riled things up here with a geopolitical thread again.. I'm going to stop replying here.. go ahead and flame or bait me, those who wish to.

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 00:47
Oh man, societies change. There is always a reason why some don't like what is happening. And yes, some people have been attacked by Turks. Others have been attacked by Dutch people, christian Surinams and some by chinese. Shit happens.
There is NO mosque that blares music into public streets. Not in public streets in small quiet towns and not in big cities (insofar we have any).
I did not BTW put in question Aftenposten and Dagbladet. I have serious doubts about B. Bawer though.

People in Europe are quite naive about the problem of multiculturalism. Cohabitation with very different cultures is a relatively new thing there. You will all just have to learn the hard wayKnow what? I think this is true. It is not something that goes OK just like that. We will be able to deal with the problems raised though. May take time, make be hard and mistakes may be made, but we will prevail.

You guys who do not care about the survival of your people and culture just baffle me.. how can you care so much about material things and not care about this? Is it simply that political correctness has frightend most of you into submission? Is it that the naive young women you want to go out with are the typical unrealistic idealists such women tend to be, and you can't bring yourself to think they could be wrong?It must be me, but I find this kind of arguing hard to deal with, because you are attributing a number of properties at the same time that are not related to each other. I do care about the survival of the society I am part of. This has nothing to do with whether I am a materialist or not. I think most of my opinions are PC, but I would not know for sure. I do not care about PC. Finally, what's this shit about naive young women? Do you know any other type aside from women that agree with you? What does going out with woman have to do with this anyway? What's the point of that question anyway? Are you implying I play nice with the ladies to get them in the sack with me? I mean, I do not want to go out with naive young women, I doubt whether they are typical unrealistic idealists, I can bring myself to seeing anyone as being wrong (even you :)). That is the problem I have with your way of arguing. To counter that one question, I actually have to counter at least three seperate statements.
50 years ago, dempgraphic trends would have indicated that the catholics would grow from a minority to a majority because they raised larger families. At that time, the Dutch ppl were rather clearly divisible in three groups: Protestant, Catholic and Socialst(-Democrat). They had seperate schools, churches, clubs etc. Mariages between the groups were uncommon and often met dissaproval from both families and groups. Instead of hammering on differences, warning for "being taken over" and stuff like that, we grew, learned and prospered by accepting, integrating and still keeping what was essential to ourselves. We will do that again now, although the biggest adaptations will come from the "newcomers". Nowadays, it may seem as if these groups all had a binding background (roman/judeo-christian?) that kept them together. If you told them that 50 years ago, you'd be asking for a good shake-out.
Umf

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 00:49
See how long it takes me to post a reply? OK, let's call it a day then.
Umf

KvHagedorn
12th March 2003, 01:30
Thanks for the reasonable discussion, Umf. If it seemed I was targeting you in particular there, I wasn't. It was meant for whatever individual might read it. This is a very depressing topic though, so perhaps we can take another long rest from politics now. :D

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 01:41
Just to be sure (and desperately try to have the last say ;)), I WAS targeting you in particular, not in an attacking sense but in the sense that I was mainly discussing with you and reacting on your contributions to this thread. I don't feel attacked by you and did not mean (and hope you did not take it as such) to attack you in a personal sense.

Yuck! We are getting way to PC here :)

Cya l8er m8. Sleep well.
Umf

The PIT
12th March 2003, 04:09
Okay lets talk about the Welsh then. :D :D
Baabaa

Gurm
12th March 2003, 04:56
Well look, to get away from Muslim bashing...

Well, no.

The problem is that there is a VERY vocal group of extremist Muslims that have a tendency to be at least tacitly backed by the less extreme Muslims. This is how you get situations like Saudi Arabia. The extremists yell and hoot and hollar, and the moderates vote for the extremists!

The same thing happens with Christianity. A small vocal extremist group kills off abortion doctors. The majority of moderate Christians says "nobody should kill anybody" but they HELP OUT those bizarros who want the abortion doctors dead, harboring and sheltering them and giving them a sympathetic ear for their bizarreness.

Religious extremism of all kinds is to be discouraged from coming anywhere near mainstream lawmaking. Period.

Now, that said... Christians don't want to kill anyone because they're an "infidel". Muslims do. You can tell me again and again that the moderates don't. But I've read the Q'ran, and "kill all the enemies of Allah" is pretty damn specific. Question is - can we convince them that we AREN'T "enemies of Allah"?

- Gurm

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 07:01
Religious extremism of all kinds is to be discouraged from coming anywhere near mainstream lawmaking. Period.
Hear, hear. Totally agree. This is the 11th commandment.

Christians don't want to kill anyone because they're an "infidel". Muslims do. You can tell me again and again that the moderates don't. But I've read the Q'ran, and "kill all the enemies of Allah" is pretty damn specific. Question is - can we convince them that we AREN'T "enemies of Allah"?I think christians have killed people because they were infidels in the past though. I've been told that the Q'ran also states that Jews and Christians are people of the Book and should be left alone. Having said that, the fact that the Q'ran (apparantly) calls for the killing of some people alone is troublesome to say the least. AFAIAC, they can shove it.

Unfortunately, I haven't read the Q'ran yet. Planning to start with the old testament, the talmud, new testament and the Q'ran. Currently though I'm struggling with Godel, Escher, Bach from a weirdo called Hofstadter
Umf

GNEP
12th March 2003, 07:07
Hmmm. Guess I am a bit threatened then as an atheist-bordering-on-nihilist?

Gurm
12th March 2003, 09:01
Well, Christians certainly HAVE, in less civilized times, killed nonbelievers.

But the Bible doesn't tell them to. Christ said to love your enemies more than your friends, and that if someone hits you, you should turn the other cheek.

The OLD Testament was full of smiting. But each time, God _specifically_ told the Hebrews to go smite someone.

Like "Go now and smite the Philistines utterly..."

It was always a direct and specific command.

There was never any biblical commandment to kill non-Jews or non-Christians.

Sad.

- Gurm

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 09:22
Not even within the promised land?
Umf

DukeP
12th March 2003, 09:33
Nope.

~~DukeP~~

Umfriend
12th March 2003, 11:34
AIn't them Jews kewl? A bit silly perhaps for believin all that stuff, but still...pretyy kewl! Xcept if you're Jewish and gay of course.....
Umf

SpiralDragon
12th March 2003, 14:27
Originally posted by thop
It's not like the western world is exactly overrun by muslims :rolleyes:, they are still outnumbered probably 100:1 - and this is not gonna change anytime soon.
The muslim world will sooner adopt the western culture than we theirs. Anyone thinking otherwise is paranoid. I have spoken :)


i tend to agree.. but it will take a long long long time and it will have to envolve some proper education in the west and the east...

Novdid
12th March 2003, 15:14
Well I'm not going to be reasonable here. I have really tried to keep myself out of these topics but this really pisses me off.

Kv, do you really browse through those sites. Just look at the ad to the left to get the idea. Looking at it again I see it's not really an ad though.

This article is pure (relating to something coming out of a cows ass). It reminds me a lot of the populistic crap the extreme right over here spews out. Please try to get a grip Kv, you probably don't know anything about the Netherlands or any other Europe country for that matter and still try to argue in a IMO very uneducated manner about how we really are putting ourself into a really "messy" situation were we ultimately will be forced to ban and put every muslim in prison because they are potentially dangerous...:rolleyes:

I'm tired of this racist topics...

Joel
12th March 2003, 17:36
I'm tired of this racist topics...

This can't be considered a racist topic because a person is a Muslim because he practices the religion of Islam not because he is of a certain race. A muslim can just as easily be a white, black, arab, etc. It just so happens that the majority of the Muslims are from the middle east but there are still different races involved. This is about a clash of ideologies and how if you don't stand up for the ideology of your country how it will be changed by an incoming ideology that is very intolerant and uses the tolerence of other ideologies to it's advantage to advance it's intolerence. ;)

Joel

Helevitia
12th March 2003, 17:51
Hey KvH, this thread has been going long enough and it may get ugly, please kill it if it gets ugly. Thanks, Dave

KvHagedorn
12th March 2003, 22:32
Will do.. I have shut up, so I hope everyone else will follow suit.