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GT98
3rd March 2003, 18:17
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=RMRFQF0W1GTWMCRBAEOCF EY?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2312850



Girl baffles teacher with SMS essay

LONDON (Reuters) - An English essay written by a teenager in text messaging short-hand has reignited concern among teachers that literacy standards are under threat.
The Daily Telegraph newspaper reported on Monday that the 13-year-old's teacher could not decipher what the youngster had written.

"I could not believe what I was seeing. The page was riddled with hieroglyphics, many of which I simply could not translate," the teacher told the newspaper.

The teenager's essay which caused the problem began:

"My smmr hols wr CWOT. B4, we used 2go2 NY 2C my bro, his GF & thr 3 :- kids FTF. ILNY, it's a gr8 plc."

In translation:

"My summer holidays were a complete waste of time. Before, we used to go to New York to see my brother, his girlfriend and their three screaming kids face to face. I love New York. It's a great place."

Judith Gillespie, of the Scottish Parent Teacher Council, told the newspaper a decline in grammar and written English was partly linked to the text messaging craze.

"Pupils think orally and write phonetically," she said.


:D

Gurm
3rd March 2003, 18:51
Flunk him.

If school systems start refusing to give diplomas to the illiterate, maybe they won't make it onto college football teams.

- Gurm

KvHagedorn
3rd March 2003, 20:31
The fact that someone would even dare to submit such a piece of garbage to a teacher is indicative of a real problem. Money says this brat was not trying to get a rise out of anyone, but just being a moron and thought this was perfectly normal. He ought to be caned in front of the class to bring them all back to reality.

Oh, the hell with it.. let him get away with it.. Western Civilization has been liberalized to the point that it has become a complete flab monster, and we are in the process of being overrun by the Osamas of the World at the invitation telegraphed by our weak-mindedness. Screw it, let's all just give up.. no one gives a damn about anything anymore anyway.

lecter
3rd March 2003, 23:58
Ijit....I think there's a place for everything-one of the things u learn in school is not to write the way u WANT to in quizes&essays, but the way u SHOULD...I hate formal education and I see it just as a necessary evil in getting a piece of paper and a job, the only thing it really teaches u is how to get along in society, 'cause let's face it, you study what you WANT to study and ignore the rest or forget all about it once you finish school. You need a diploma to get a job, but you need your personal, heavily-practiced skills for keeping that job...it's not the hours you spend in school that get you educated, it's the late-night reading/tinkering....at least that's the way it was and will be for me.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 00:22
Originally posted by lecter
Ijit....I think there's a place for everything-one of the things u learn in school is not to write the way u WANT to in quizes&essays, but the way u SHOULD...I hate formal education and I see it just as a necessary evil in getting a piece of paper and a job, the only thing it really teaches u is how to get along in society, 'cause let's face it, you study what you WANT to study and ignore the rest or forget all about it once you finish school. You need a diploma to get a job, but you need your personal, heavily-practiced skills for keeping that job...it's not the hours you spend in school that get you educated, it's the late-night reading/tinkering....at least that's the way it was and will be for me.

Well I wish I worked harder at school as I would be a lot better off now. Quiet a few of my friends say the same. If you regret being taught about how to get along theres something seriously wrong in your attitude. Sure one of the problems in school is lack of discipline which makes it hard to learn it also up to the teacher to make the subject interesting so that you want to learn it.
Got to admit I dropped History, Music, Eng lit (As you can see) as they wouldn't help me to get a job. I would have also liked to drop PE and German and use that time to improve my other skills.
Also got to admit never really used my degree basically it's a replacement for my lack of A levels becuase I didn't work hard enougth while at school.

Fat Tone
4th March 2003, 00:42
I often get email from the little darlings that have absolutely no punctuation and are littered with text-isms. You can guarantee those are the ones that aren't even signed and are probably rude. First instinct is to send it back and ask for a translation into English.

I gave my first student lecture last night, to ~300 first years. Its not what I would normally think of as being part of my job, but we are now obliged to make sure they get certain IT skills (This is a computer...this is how to paste...). I'd say 10-20% of the little shits didn't stop talking the whole time. Where do they get this attitude from? In my day you wouldn't dare. :mad:

lecter
4th March 2003, 00:43
If you regret being taught about how to get along theres something seriously wrong in your attitude.

Hey, I didn't say that....I see this aspect as one thing school IS good for...another would be helping you find the stuff you're talented in...but all this doesn't require 12 compulsory years+uni.

lecter
4th March 2003, 00:45
Tony, I've seen it myself, if the subject is interesting no one talks...what you should do is just make attendance more liberal, so that those 20% don't show up in the first place.

Fat Tone
4th March 2003, 00:50
Sure, some of them will already know some of what I was saying, but that's not the point. Its just damn rude, spoils it for others sitting near them and distracts the lecturer. Next time, I might start asking them to come and give the lecture :devious:

BTW, attendance is compulsory. Its one of those things that might sway a decision if they are borderline.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 00:59
Originally posted by Tony Andrews
I often get email from the little darlings that have absolutely no punctuation and are littered with text-isms. You can guarantee those are the ones that aren't even signed and are probably rude. First instinct is to send it back and ask for a translation into English.

I can't comment on that. :D


I gave my first student lecture last night, to ~300 first years. Its not what I would normally think of as being part of my job, but we are now obliged to make sure they get certain IT skills (This is a computer...this is how to paste...). I'd say 10-20% of the little shits didn't stop talking the whole time. Where do they get this attitude from? In my day you wouldn't dare. :mad:

Ah just chuck em out. You can't hit the little shits so chuck em out then they'll whine that they haven't learn't anything

The PIT
4th March 2003, 01:00
Originally posted by lecter
Hey, I didn't say that



Okay doke. Sorry.

Wulfman
4th March 2003, 04:43
once upon a time, before people could write fast on typewriters/computers, someone invented shorthand. a lot of people couldn't read it.

now, people don't have the time to type long texts on mobile phones, so they adapt their writing skills.

once technology will allow "better suited" mobiles...

mfg
wulfman

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 05:13
I remember seeing a rehearsal of the Boston Pops Orchestra when Arthur Fiedler was still conductor. He dealt with grown musicians like they were first graders. Trying to go through some passage, he noticed some musicians yakking in the back and thundered, "STOP TALKING!" That just took me by surprise, but he was from the old school.. you remember the old school? When there was discipline, everyone knew their place, and European Civilization ruled the world as a consequence.

Things have gone steadily downhill since women were given the vote. The feminization of all public policy has made society soft. This is the real world, you know, and in the real world it is kill or be killed. Translated into psycho-sexual terms, that means fvck or be fvcked.. dominate or be dominated. It is the masculine nature to dominate and the feminine to be dominated, just as it is the nature of authority figures (teachers, parents, drill sargents) to dominate their charges so the little shites will learn how to survive in the real world. Since feminine attitudes have pervaded this authority, it has become non-authority.. teachers no longer have any respect because they are required by feminized society to be soft on their students. That's why those kids don't listen to you, Tony.. this is the first generation that has grown up with absolutely no discipline whatsoever.. people born in the seventies, after their parents had all smoked pot and decided it was better to BE fvcked than to fvck.

Guess what? This is why Islamic society is treatening to take over. They have stayed strong because their women know their place in society. They see us as a bunch of passive cows all bent over, ready to be slaughtered.. and we are.

Gurm
4th March 2003, 05:30
I like the Old School.

Lecter, stop to think about this - there's a REASON that 12 years of school are mandatory. There's almost nothing in there that you don't really need.

History? You need it. Sadly, nobody knows history. The recent madness in TSB (hence our lovely home here in the Lounge) has taught us that 90% of Europeans know ZERO about history. The number, sadly, is closer to 95% in America. :(

Math? You need it. You really really need it. I swear they need to make calculus compulsory. If you can't do calculus, you can't have a job. Honestly. I'm going a little overboard because I'm math biased. But honestly you NEED math. As much as you can get. Especially for a career in computers or engineering.

Sciences? You need 'em. Do you need to remember every little thing about Biology? No, of course not. But it's good to have learned it in the first place. You know how life is categorized. People who don't study Biology end up lumped in with the idiots who don't know the definition of "life" and shoot abortion doctors.

Languages? You NEED these. I'm sorry I never got fluent in Russian... but I still recall most of my Latin and Greek. We're the only country in the world where 95+% of our population only speaks one language (poorly).

English? Well, we OBVIOUSLY need that. I read your post. No offense, but you border on illiterate, man.

- Gurm

Gurm
4th March 2003, 05:37
KvH,

Err... you're getting a little too Freudian there.

And frankly, Freud's work was very valid - for repressed Austrian guys, around middle age, with a fixation on their own mother and closeted homosexual desires. For everyone else, it was bullshit.

- Gurm

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 05:37
Originally posted by Wulfman
once upon a time, before people could write fast on typewriters/computers, someone invented shorthand. a lot of people couldn't read it.

now, people don't have the time to type long texts on mobile phones, so they adapt their writing skills.

once technology will allow "better suited" mobiles...

mfg
wulfman

Shorthand was not meant to be read. It was invented to be written and then translated later. It is always faster to read something than it is to write it. Bullshit like l33tspeak might be easier for the writer, but it's hell for someone to read it. I'm not surprised that CWOT (complete waste of time) is a "standard?" abbreviation for this slacker-speak. It reeks of spoiled brat.

In the end, communication is the goal. That's why we have standard English (or German, or whatever.) These languages have evolved over many many years to enable people to communicate ideas in effective and subtle ways. Now, I know many of you are "math" people, whose language skills were never their strongest suit, but you have to have respect for language, even if you aren't Mark Twain. What would you think of someone if they said (or obviously thought) that electrical engineering or computer science was a bunch of worthless bullshit? Wouldn't you lose respect for them? Well language isn't bullshit either. It's how great ideas are proliferated, and how they have been proliferated for centuries. It is a great treasure of our culture, and you'd damned well better show some respect for it.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 05:42
Originally posted by Gurm
I like the Old School.

Lecter, stop to think about this - there's a REASON that 12 years of school are mandatory. There's almost nothing in there that you don't really need.

History? You need it. Sadly, nobody knows history. The recent madness in TSB (hence our lovely home here in the Lounge) has taught us that 90% of Europeans know ZERO about history. The number, sadly, is closer to 95% in America. :(

Got by quite well without it. Although sometimes I think it would be useful to broaden my horizons. It would be useful at quizzes. When I was at school unemployment was just going through the roof employers generally wanted maths, physics, english. I dropped History as well as Music and Eng Lit to concentrate on those. Note I wasn't very good at maths

Math? You need it. You really really need it. I swear they need to make calculus compulsory. If you can't do calculus, you can't have a job. Honestly. I'm going a little overboard because I'm math biased. But honestly you NEED math. As much as you can get. Especially for a career in computers or engineering.

Yup but then saying that I've only used it at University or helping one of my nephews out with his homework never since and it's never come into my job with computing. But at least I've done it.

Sciences? You need 'em. Do you need to remember every little thing about Biology? No, of course not. But it's good to have learned it in the first place. You know how life is categorized. People who don't study Biology end up lumped in with the idiots who don't know the definition of "life" and shoot abortion doctors.

Yup

Languages? You NEED these. I'm sorry I never got fluent in Russian... but I still recall most of my Latin and Greek. We're the only country in the world where 95+% of our population only speaks one language (poorly).

Well the teaching of langs at our schools was useless totally


English? Well, we OBVIOUSLY need that. I read your post. No offense, but you border on illiterate, man.

- Gurm

Sasq
4th March 2003, 05:42
KvH, language is fluid, it evolves. there is no 'set english', never was, never will be. Times change, so does both the written and spoken language.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 05:51
Originally posted by Sasq
KvH, language is fluid, it evolves. there is no 'set english', never was, never will be. Times change, so does both the written and spoken language.

This what English Lit tries to do. It tries to keep English to a set of predefined rules. All languages evolve it's just got to be accepted.

Wulfman I doubt a typist would send shorthand in for a English assey. It was some smart arsed kid trying to be clever.

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 05:53
Originally posted by Gurm

Math? You need it. You really really need it. I swear they need to make calculus compulsory. If you can't do calculus, you can't have a job. Honestly. I'm going a little overboard because I'm math biased. But honestly you NEED math. As much as you can get. Especially for a career in computers or engineering.


You are math biased. You don't need calculus to get a job. Lawyers manage to get by without needing any math at all. They use language to make their living. So does everyone.

Let me tell you something. I have a very shitty math background. Do you know why? Because none of the math teachers I ever had could COMMUNICATE worth a shit. Alright, I take that back.. there was one who could. But I never really got fluent in the formulaic language because those people couldn't speak the English language. Honestly. Half of my college math teachers were foreigners who would spend the whole class writing formulas on the board. They couldn't teach worth a DAMN, and I'm still pissed off about it. Some moron allowed them to teach because they knew their subject, but they couldn't speak English, so what use are they as a teacher?

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 05:58
Originally posted by Gurm
KvH,

Err... you're getting a little too Freudian there.

And frankly, Freud's work was very valid - for repressed Austrian guys, around middle age, with a fixation on their own mother and closeted homosexual desires. For everyone else, it was bullshit.

- Gurm

Stop being so damned flip all the time. I am not being Freudian. Some of my ideas might intersect his, but they are my ideas, not Freud's! I did not read his work and somehow derive my thought patterns from his rantings. These ideas come from my own observations about life after having lived for awhile in this very real, very cruel world.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 06:08
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
Some moron allowed them to teach because they knew their subject, but they couldn't speak English, so what use are they as a teacher?

Yes it's the employees who employed the person and didn't put them on a English course who are the Morons. No doubt due to fear of being called pc. Yes this is a growing problem and does need to be addressed.

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 06:12
Originally posted by Sasq
KvH, language is fluid, it evolves. there is no 'set english', never was, never will be. Times change, so does both the written and spoken language.

Well, if I was to blow up your house, and to your anger answered: "Matter is fluid, it evolves." Would you not throttle me there and then? There have to be rules for English, and there are. If not was follow them I could not you saying understand? :p

Look, times may change, but it is up to US to make sure they do not change for the worse. L33tspeak is the embodiment of its purveyors: disrespectful brats who never had to work a day in their lives, or if they did, worked in a very insulated environment which is thoroughly divorced from reality.

lecter
4th March 2003, 06:20
Here we go....History class was a joke in high-school, however, that did not stop me from reading up on it because many topics were indeed interesting. I do need math, but practically all the math I know I learned in 2 years, one with an uncle, and one with a teacher that actually knew not only what, but HOW to teach. It was enough to get me good grades in school and on my graduation exams and to guide me so far in the first semester of university. As for the people who end up shooting abortion doctors, I don't believe it's the lack of biology knowledge that prompts them to do that, it's sheer lunacy and the good ol' gun culture you people breed.

Quite frankly I'm not in the mood for flaming...if you think I'm bordering on illiterate, fine, I don't especially care for what goes on through the head of some guy named Jason in Pennsylvania (or wherever u said u lived).

KvHagedorn
4th March 2003, 06:24
Originally posted by The PIT
Yes it's the employees who employed the person and didn't put them on a English course who are the Morons. No doubt due to fear of being called pc. Yes this is a growing problem and does need to be addressed.

Well, what I should have said was that their grasp of English was severely limited, just like my grasp of calculus was severely limited when I left their class. ;)

Wulfman
4th March 2003, 06:47
let's start:


In the end, communication is the goal.
with this sentence, everything is said. the language does not matter - the information must arrive. I communicate with english (although slightly lazy english without much capitals) here, german elsewhere. others use l33tspeak, shorthand, sign-language or braille. all are interpretations of reality or ideas.


Wulfman I doubt a typist would send shorthand in for a English assey. It was some smart arsed kid trying to be clever.
you have to choose where the different types are appropriate. I'm sure the pupil has learned what he shouldn't use in school. I just don't understand why this is causing such a stir. despite that - what kind of essay should that be? 2 sentences?


Shorthand was not meant to be read. It was invented to be written and then translated later. It is always faster to read something than it is to write it. Bullshit like l33tspeak might be easier for the writer, but it's hell for someone to read it.
I can't read shorthand. I know people who can, I know people (e.g. my mother) who can nearly read shorthand fluently. hell for someone to read? not if you are used to it.


But I never really got fluent in the formulaic language because those people couldn't speak the English language.
imho they don't need to. the mathematic language is quite clear. I just gone through the first stages of maths at the uni (diff equation, statistic) and was looking at blackboards full of formulas for hours. and usually ended up with a bunch of books. normal language is not needed / useful as it cannot really describe the ideas of higher mathematics apropriate, that's why the mathematic language was invented. :) guess that's why higher dimensions can be "calculated" but not envisaged.

mfg
wulfman

PS.: I'm not a maths type either, I like "normal" written language.

The PIT
4th March 2003, 06:53
Originally posted by Wulfman
you have to choose where the different types are appropriate. I'm sure the pupil has learned what he shouldn't use in school. I just don't understand why this is causing such a stir. despite that - what kind of essay should that be? 2 sentences?

I don't think it is causing much of stir. The pupil should have got zero marks for it and thats that.

imho they don't need to. the mathematic language is quite clear. I just gone through the first stages of maths at the uni (diff equation, statistic) and was looking at blackboards full of formulas for hours. and usually ended up with a bunch of books. normal language is not needed / useful as it cannot really describe the ideas of higher mathematics apropriate, that's why the mathematic language was invented. :) guess that's why higher dimensions can be "calculated" but not envisaged.

Sorry if the person can't explain whats the object of the excercise is, clearly in the persons native language, they ain't going to learn it. Sometimes one has been taken through the steps before the penny drops.

mfg
wulfman

PS.: I'm not a maths type either, I like "normal" written language.

Wulfman
4th March 2003, 07:13
I don't think it is causing much of stir.

let's see other news published by reuters today:

Airport Bomb in Philippines Kills 18, Wounds 100
U.S. May Have Taken Sept. 11 Suspect to Afghanistan

and:

British Girl Baffles Teacher with SMS Essay

:rolleyes: ;)

mfg
wulfman

The PIT
4th March 2003, 07:31
Originally posted by Wulfman
let's see other news published by reuters today:

Airport Bomb in Philippines Kills 18, Wounds 100
U.S. May Have Taken Sept. 11 Suspect to Afghanistan

and:

British Girl Baffles Teacher with SMS Essay

:rolleyes: ;)

mfg
wulfman

What does it say on the BBC.

Inspectors no deterant to Iraq.
Milburn defends Hospital plans.
Hussain quits one day job.
Russia to veto.
Soddem reckons he whip US ass.
US considers plan B for Iraq in case the above is true.

Nothing about some British lass. Guess BBC got better priorities.

GNEP
4th March 2003, 08:01
Reuters just catches everything. "ODD F9" is the channel to watch for the amusing stories if you have a Kobra terminal to hand... :)

The PIT
4th March 2003, 08:03
Ah the Spanish Trawler of the news world. :D :D :D

GNEP
4th March 2003, 08:19
Spot on. :D

gt40
4th March 2003, 08:22
getting a little heated in here. TSB II ?

The PIT
4th March 2003, 08:24
What the comment about the Spanish Trawler???

Sorry folks. :D :D

Fat Tone
4th March 2003, 08:25
Yes TP, leave the trawler out of it, or you'll get this thread locked! :D

gt40
4th March 2003, 08:42
Originally posted by The PIT
What the comment about the Spanish Trawler???

Sorry folks. :D :D

LOL!

The PIT
4th March 2003, 11:10
Originally posted by Tony Andrews
Yes TP, leave the trawler out of it, or you'll get this thread locked! :D

Okay

Ah the Spanish CENSORED of the news world.


Will that do. :D :D :D

Belwarrior
6th March 2003, 10:13
Guys.. English changes.. i am indian though not from India.. but i see letters from india, time to time and golly :P their english looks archaic compared to the current flavour. Personally the word "gay" meant happy or bright when i was growing up.. gay old dandy meant a fun loving guy who never married .. now it means a male homosexual. A slang became the real McCoy and they went and changed enid blyton books to reflect the change.

As for the UK Lass, she is probably too busy messaging her friends on her celluar phone to do a proper essay. Just fail her and anyone else who does similar work..

I always sms inasmuch proper english as i can, strangely due to my handphone. My motorola has a builtin auto spelling eg 4663 -> good or home -> choose word -> ok -> next word. It is more troublesome and time consuming to do shorthand like the UK lass so maybe to improve english they should implement this in all handphones and maybe also a grammer checker as well ? :P

rubank
7th March 2003, 04:00
Iīm quite baffled by the response to GT:s post. Am I the only one (except GT, obviously) who sees the humour in it?

And where do you get the idea that the young girl wasnīt able to write in a perfectly ordinary way had she chosen to do so?

Wow, the way some people react.

rubank

Fat Tone
7th March 2003, 04:10
Sure it's funny, but at her expense. Surely if she were capable, or cared at all, she would have done a better job? And the example I gave were true. Its symptomatic of todays youth.

But, yes, I did chuckle.

Gurm
7th March 2003, 10:26
It's not funny, it's sad.

Nobody takes education seriously any more.

Then they wonder why the world treats them unfairly, or why they can't have a good job, or why college is "so hard".

- Gurm

GT98
7th March 2003, 12:17
Originally posted by Gurm


Then they wonder why the world treats them unfairly, or why they can't have a good job, or why college is "so hard".

- Gurm

Why should a college degree make such a big difference when you have two people who have the same excact skills and experance and the only difference is College? Its ****ing lame....

Strahd
7th March 2003, 12:55
Originally posted by GT98
Why should a college degree make such a big difference when you have two people who have the same excact skills and experance and the only difference is College? Its ****ing lame....

If one goes to college and one doesn't, they do not have the same experience and skills.

Besides, the fact that a person goes to College and gets out with reasonable marks, shows ambition and a willingness to learn.

Strahd
7th March 2003, 13:00
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
Well, if I was to blow up your house, and to your anger answered: "Matter is fluid, it evolves." Would you not throttle me there and then? There have to be rules for English, and there are. If not was follow them I could not you saying understand? :p



Perhaps not the best analogy.:rolleyes:

Everything evolves. Science evolves, math evolves, history is always being written so that too can be said to evolve.

As for language, new entries are found in dictionaries evry year as language evolves too.

The PIT
7th March 2003, 13:28
Originally posted by Strahd
As for language, new entries are found in dictionaries evry year as language evolves too.

Here Here.

But it the local dialec should be brought back.

rubank
7th March 2003, 15:39
Originally posted by Gurm
It's not funny, it's sad.

Nobody takes education seriously any more.
....
- Gurm

We seem to live in different worlds. I have two "kids", a daughter of 23 who studies at a uni in England and a son of 20 who goes to uni here in Sweden. They take their education most seriously, and that goes for their friends too. Most kids in Sweden get a fair amount of education, even if itīs not necessarily the same stuff I learnt once upon a time.
Being an academic myself I have the good fortune to know quite a lot of middle-aged/elderly people with 9-12 years of elementary schooling (or even less), and mostly they strike me as being very knowledgable, albeit in other areas than myself. I often envy them their knowledge in matters I know little about. There are other kinds of education than academic study. He/she who has spent half a lifetime in his/her profession is presumably very well educated in his/her line of business, but somehyow that doesnīt seem to count as education, which I find rather strange.

rubank

GT98
7th March 2003, 16:50
Originally posted by Strahd

Besides, the fact that a person goes to College and gets out with reasonable marks, shows ambition and a willingness to learn.

Well I've seen pently of people who when to college and not make anything of themselfs. The point I'm making is that someone can be quaified for a job and not have a college degree, so they won't get the job just because of that. Ambition and wllingness to learn aren't the exculsive domain of someone with a college education. I've seen pently of people have that and not have a college education.

Gurm
7th March 2003, 16:56
Sweden and the US/UK are in fact two different worlds education-wise.

- Gurm

KvHagedorn
7th March 2003, 21:47
Originally posted by Gurm
Sweden and the US/UK are in fact two different worlds education-wise.

- Gurm

I agree.. things are much better for everyone when LCD doesn't hold sway over everyone else by force of law and all trumped-up social taboo.

Pace|Work
7th March 2003, 22:14
Originally posted by GT98
Girl baffles teacher with SMS essay
Originally posted by Gurm
Flunk him.
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
He ought to be caned in front of the classCongratulations boys, you're now banned from all future discussions about communication ;)

KvHagedorn
7th March 2003, 22:30
heh.. I'm.. umm.. Chinese (yeah that's it).. we have no gender in our language, so I just slipped.. :o :p :o

hehe.. my other excuse is reading Gurm's "Flunk him" faux pas just before posting. :D