Need Help with new video system

[JonH]

Hello,
I'm new to this forum and need some advice. I have been making videos for athletic teams and special ocassions for the last few years using Matrox G400-TV and Media Studio Pro. I'm ready to buy a new computer with a P4 (with lots of RAM and 533 FSB, etc.). Since I use it in my business as well, cost isn't that important of a factor. I've been told that I don't need any hardware-assisted compression with a fast processor (by some people). Others say I should get the Matrox x-100 card if I eventually want to burn dvd's (which I do). But this card comes with Premiere and I understand that it doesn't work with MSP 6.5. I really don't want to learn another video editing program. But I've heard the x-100 can do amazing things.
Other considerations include that I also use other peoples analog footage for the sporting events in addition to my digital video. I would also like to capture from a TV and I like being able to preview footage and see my editing on a TV screen (which is easy with my G400-TV).
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
Jon

[landrover]

Don´t let tuner capabilities be too important. You can always hook up a VCR to your input and use it´s tuner. If you insist on keeping MSP, just go for a stable rig with a top-notch CPU and a Fire Wire card and something like a converter box for transferring analog footage to DV. Most NLE sofware/hardware packages are more or less tailor-made for Premiere.

[Technoid]

Terratec has a converter but no price on their site yet :-(

[Ted222]

As I understand it...there is a quality difference in DV codecs when working with a Matrox RT capture card.

One other thing is the "real time" full quality preview to an NTSC TV of an RT card. (although MSP 7 is supposed to have that feature)

I would sure like to return to MSP for editing.....I find it too much of a pain to use MSP 6.5 and Premiere 6.5, so I have opted to stick with Premiere for the time being....

Have fun with your new Super Computer.....

Ted

[JonH]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies. Ted, you appear to have a set-up similar to what I am planning. Can you tell me what you mean by the quality differences (which is better)? Also, are you glad you have the RTx.100 given you need Premiere -- i.e., would you do it differently now? And, what can you do with MSP given you go back and forth? Finally, will MSP 7 work okay with the RTx.100 when it comes out? Also, I guess I would still need a capture card even with an RTx.100. I see you have both.
Sorry for all the questions. I've been trying to figure this out the past month and feel a bit lost. Was glad to find this web site.
Jon

[gt40]

If you are considering the rtx100 and are budget limited have a look at the rtx10- this may be the next logical step above the g450-etv.

These are both capture cards, as well as real time editing cards (with different features).
If you have used MSP 6.5 then premiere 6.5 will be a small step on the learning curve.

Best of luck.
Pat

[Ted222]

Pat makes a good point, I went from G450Etv to RT.x10 then to RT.x100 to get more transitions. Other than added transitions and more Matrox Support for new transitions - I think - both the RTx cards are essentially the same. The RT.x10 would let you get your feet wet for half the money, but I thought money wasn't a primary consideration.

Hafta get Doc to chime in for the differences in DV codecs, but my understanding is that the RT cards unsample a little differently and allow for greater quality and quality retention during editing.

I wouldn't give up my RT.x100 for anything....yet....but I am gonna be giving MSP 7.0 the "hairy eyeball" to see if I can switch back, although from Doc's earlier descriptions of MSP 7.0 I don't think I will switch back yet.

Ted

[Dr Mordrid]

The MSDV codec is much better than it once was and it was improved again for DirectX9, but the Matrox and Canopus DV codecs are about the best around right now.

Just remember the computers DV codec only comes into play when rendering effects/transitions/titles and exporting.

When capturing the computers DV codec is not used since the camera does the encoding and the video is just transferred to the computer and an *.avi wrapper put on it.

I use both MSPro7 and the RT.X100. I can move footage back & forth between them because MSPro7 can export to the Matrox codecs and it can also capture DV type2 files Premiere 6.5/RT.X100 will accept and use in realtime.

I can even capture RGB24, YUY2 and the RT.X100's DV/DVCAM from the RT.X100's analog inputs using MSPro7's Video Capture program and a new VfW video capture plugin Matrox released a few weeks ago.

This way I can use each setup for its individual strenghts.

Of course I'd just about kill to get full MSPro7 drivers for the RT.X100 hardware.

Dr. Mordrid

[JonH]

Thank you everyone for your replies. This is the way I'm leaning right now. But a P4 processor with an appropriate ASUS MBoard. Buy a Matrox capture card (450 or 550) in order to get dual head display and for capturing analog video from others. Upgrade to MSP 7 when it comes out. Buy a DVD burner later in year when they can burn double-sided DVDs. And then see if I can live with render times. If not, I can add the RTx 10 or 100 at that time.
Is this seem like a good approach? Are there other considerations I'm missing?
Thanks.
Jon

[Brian Ellis]

Jon

If you wish to get the maximum for the minimum, let's look at it a different way.

As I understand it, your main interest is DV. Then get a low cost DV card, such as a Pyro. The analogue input from TV seems secondary in your importance, so use an analogue>DV bridge, such as the Canopus ADVC-100.

So, I've saved you several hundred bucks. What can you spend it on? Well, I suggest you may wish to consider a computer with a P4 HT 3.06 GHz computer, a 450PE chipset and 512 Mb of PC2700 memory. This would have to run under XP Pro, to get the most out of it. And then use MSP Pro 7.0 -- this will SCREAM along on such a rig with as much RT as you would get with a specialised card, like the Matrox ones, possibly more.

What will you get for this? Hassle-free capture, no dicey fiddle-faddle between Premiere and MSP, the HT advantages, written into MSP 7, analogue in and out, of good quality, as well as DV (including editing on the TV as preview device for both), no difference between the DV and analogue-derived signals, so they can be intermixed without conversion and so on. And you can burn DVDs with just that.

This is exactly the set-up I'm using now (and I appreciate muchly the TV-out via the ADVC-100 while editing), except that my processor is a slower P4 without HT (unfortunately). It is foolproof and, even with my slow machine, I can get some RT on simple transitions and MSP 7.

I think it may be worth thinking about.

[Hulk]

I have a Dell P4 2.4 with a 845PE (333MHz) motherboard. I also have a g450eTV. I'm using MS Pro 6.5 with great results. Render times are very good with this system, of course they could always be better. But then again, just over a year ago I was using a PIII 850.

My TESTED performance increase from PIII850 to P4 2.4 using the MS Pro test script is almost 3 TIMES when doing dv and MPEG-2 compression.

I only significant wait times I have are when doing the final compression to MPEG-2 using TMPGEnc 2-pass mode.

I output my projects from MS Pro to huffyuv format and then batch compress overnight using TMPGEnc, just select "shut down when finished" and your computer shuts off when the compression is finished! You wake up the next morning, fire up the computer and everything is finished. MPEG-2 compression times have become non-issue for me.

Capture from the eTV is great as long as you remember to "swap frames" on playback. The only thing I'll eventually want is a DVI output on the card so I can get a lcd monitor.

I plan to upgrade my cpu to the HT3.06 when the price drops a bit.

-Mark

[JonH]

Brian and Mark,
Thanks to both of you. Now I have more to figure out. I just might go with the P4 with HT. It's what I originally wanted before I knew it was about the highest priced processor out there -- I usually try to stay a step behind the best for value.

I have two additional questions. First, is there a noticeable difference in final output of project on DVD, VHS, or SVCD using the Matrox RT.x cards?

Second, it appears that I need to pick between a digital bridge (like the ADVC - 100) and a capture card (like the Matrox g450e). I'm not picking up the pros and cons on this. Will both basically do the same thing for me?

I'm not real versed in some of this. I make mjpeg videos that I convert to mpeg2s and svcds. To eventually get to dvds, I know I have to leave mjpeg behind plus it won't work on XP.
Thanks for your help.
Jon

[Ray Austin]

Originally posted by JonH
I have two additional questions. First, is there a noticeable difference in final output of project on DVD, VHS, or SVCD using the Matrox RT.x cards?

This question really has several factors that determine quality.

• Capture Quality...Quality of the source.
• DVD...Depends on above plus Bit Rate+ encoder used.higher bit rate better the quality and also larger the file.
• VHS depends on the first one above as well has how many renders were performed plus video connections..."good cables +length + VCR used to capture to.
• SVCD depends on 1st in list + Plus encoder and bit rate used.

Second, it appears that I need to pick between a digital bridge (like the ADVC - 100) and a capture card (like the Matrox g450e). I'm not picking up the pros and cons on this. Will both basically do the same thing for me?

Have you decided which editing application you plan to use? Adobe Premiere? Vegas Video? Media Studio Pro?

Premiere is well known and a good choice if you are starting out and don't have any current software. It comes bundled with many cards on the market.

Depending on how much you plan to spend... you could go with a RTX10 or the bigger Brother RTX100. I have used the the RT2000 and am currently using the RTX100. The ADVC I believe is a way to capture video from an analog source such as a vcr. There are cards that are fairly cheap that would not require that.

[Eddy]

Jon,

If you want Hyperthreading but without paying the maximum price, you could try to wait for the new chipset named Springdale with 800 MHz FSB and dual channel DDR400. Along with it, the new P4's with 800 MHz FSB will be released that will have Hyperthreading starting from 2.4 GHz. It is expected to be released in March this year...

Eddy.

[Brian Ellis]

The big advantage of a bridge is that all the analogue capture is in dv format. No need to bother about which codec to use nor any complex capturing with a combination of third-party softwares which do not always co-exist happily. It also means you can use MSP without problems (Matrox RT-Xn series or Canopus Storm etc. cannot use MSP 6.5, only Premier; use with MSP 7 is still under investigation).

I've never used RT-Xn cards but have used a Marvel. The ADVC-100 is at least equal in performance with high-quality analogue input signals, using the hardware MJPEG at highest quality, except where there are VERY high speed movements, when DV artifacting is slightly more apparent. The Marvel was good in its day, but I never regret having replaced it. The ADVC-100 is more tolerant of poor signal quality, as well (no drops from even old, commercial VHS tapes, unless they are REALLY bad - have had one which was really bad out of many transcribed onto DVD). With Marvel, I rarely was able to capture them without at least one drop, sometimes producing the dreaded reversal of field order.

I don't think you have given any indication of whether you are in PAL- or NTSC-land. Be aware that colour keying with NTSC DV is hairier than with most high-quality direct analogue captures, especially if you use the traditional blue screen. This is because of the way DV interleaves the chrominance signal into the luminance. With PAL, the problem is not so apparent a) because of the different method used and b) the higher number of lines. This would therefore be a disadvantage of using an analogue<>DV bridge in NTSC-land.

The analogue-out from a DV signal, to go to a TV monitor/set via the bridge, is excellent. The resolution is as good as any TV set and most monitors can accomodate. On test pattern wedges, I can see just as many lines as DV can resolve in digital format on the 'puter screen. Above all, in MSP 7, I can adjust clips to give exactly what I wish in the way of contrast/brilliance/hue/gamma, as they will appear when played on a TV, something almost impossible on a computer monitor, as I can see the effect of changing the variables, as I do it. This is also possible with some analogue cards, I believe. Again with MSP 7, it is possible to use, say, a Matrox G-550 graphics card, using two computer screens, if this be your wont, AND the TV screen through the bridge. (I admit I use a single screen + TV most of the time, as I find it much more tiring to use 2 + TV -- or, I suppose, 3 +TV with the Parhelia -- than 1 (21") + TV, but this is a personal choice. Lest I be accused of heresy, I do have two screens on my G-550, but the second one is resolutely off 99% of the time; I put it on only if I have some extremely fine detail I need to resolve. I hate a timeline stretched over 2 screens and the MSP7 feature which allows the timeline to be compressed except during transitions renders this unnecessary in many cases.