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View Full Version : Congratulations to the 10 new EU members



efty
15th December 2002, 17:05
Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia and Hungary have been invited to join the EU. On the other hand Turkey’s admission was once more postponed.

I was almost certain that there would be a solution of the Cyprus problem during the summit but the negotiations failed once more. To be honest I did not like the proposed plan. They expected us to pay in order to get our occupied homes back, to pay in order the economic level of the Turkish Cypriots levels with us. Not to mention the fact that all the immigrants would remain.

K6-III
15th December 2002, 17:54
I would have liked to see Turkey admitted...

Where are you from, BTW???

thop
15th December 2002, 17:58
whats the difference between efty and eftychios :confused:

Guru
15th December 2002, 18:11
Originally posted by K6-III
I would have liked to see Turkey admitted...

Where are you from, BTW???

Location: New York

efty
15th December 2002, 18:43
I am Eftychios, this is my old account.

I am from Cyprus curently in NY.

As far as Turkey goes, it was expected that they would not define a date. Turkey has a looong way to go economicaly and socially.

K6-III
15th December 2002, 19:52
Indeed, but its inclusion could be very beneficial to the region in the long term.

Also, it has been making quite significant social strides in the last few years....

Umfriend
15th December 2002, 23:19
I still can't believe the way we treat Turkey. I also think it is a major error because I fear it increases the risk of Turkey shifting its focus eastwards instead of west. Turkey is our neighbour after all, and it's a big one at that...

I may be wrong, but I think for an Islamic country, Turkey is the one with the most solid democratic base and as reliable as most other EU nations. Given the development that the other Muslim countries need to experience, including turkey woudl have been a good idea...but alas
Umf

K6-III
15th December 2002, 23:29
I would classify Turkey as on par with some Eastern European countries that were admitted.

Much of the way that Turkey is presently being treated is due to a stigma brought to Europe by immigrants from Turkey, who had a tendency to not be the most educated, to say it lightly. They hardly were an accurate representation of Turkey proper, yet the stigma remains in much of Europe to this day...

KvHagedorn
15th December 2002, 23:43
Maybe they would be more welcome if they took those immigrants back and would be the kind of place people wouldn't want to leave.

They are really less European than any EU country. Ukraine and Belarus have more business being in the EU than they do.

Dr Mordrid
16th December 2002, 00:58
I think it's a major strateigic error not to get Turkey into the EU as soon as possible. The sooner they get "European-ized" the better for the overall geopolicics of the near-east.

Dr. Mordrid

Wulfman
16th December 2002, 01:12
Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
a major strateigic error

as in "military" or "economic" strategy?

mfg
wulfman

PS.: "political" not included, because this involves a mixture of the above.

Schorsch
16th December 2002, 01:13
There are several reasons why Turkey hasn't been admitted (yet). The GDP of Turkey is only about 30 % of the EU average, the inflation in Turkey is extremely high (about 50 %) and the country's budget deficit is also much higher than in the EU countries. Apart from these economical figures, the violation of human rights is still a major problem and Turkey certainly won't be admitted until these issues are resolved. As efty already said, they still have a long way to go...

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 01:34
Turkey is already a member of NATO, so the military part is taken care of. Don't make the mistake of thinking EU membership would solve any problems for the West in the Middle East, either. Arabs don't have any particular love for Turks, and Turkey will not be "Europeanized" even if they were to be included in the EU. It's better as it is, to have them as a sort of buffer state.

Umfriend
16th December 2002, 02:15
*Trying not to be indignant*

There may be no love lost between turks and arabs, but that is beside the point. A large part of the muslim world is not "arab". The exclusion of Turkey does not help in getting "west" and "east" any closer to each other. It just goes to show that no matter what a muslim country will do, the "west" will never accept it because the west hates Islam.

*probably indignant*
Turkey would take them all back if the immigrants were wiling to re-imigrate. In some cases this happens. Joining the EU might help making Turkey a wealthier place so that less ppl would want to leave now. I do not know and wonder how many turks currently would like to emigrate btw, I do not think it is that much.

I think it is a major mistake to treat Turkey as we currently do. Also, joining the EU is not the same as joining the EMU, so the economic differences are less relevant. Check Turkey against the lesser of the economies, and then realise that they have had substantial benefit from the EU already...
Umf

Admiral
16th December 2002, 03:15
Well, Romania and Bulgaria didn't get invited, or sort of got. There is a 2007 term set if the economical reforms go on and there is also a good thing that the rules of the game were set also, now, by the current members, so that there won't be problems from the newly admited in what regards our future admission.

Schorsch
16th December 2002, 03:16
Originally posted by Umfriend
Turkey would take them all back if the immigrants were wiling to re-imigrate. In some cases this happens. Joining the EU might help making Turkey a wealthier place so that less ppl would want to leave now. I do not know and wonder how many turks currently would like to emigrate btw, I do not think it is that much.

I think it is a major mistake to treat Turkey as we currently do. Also, joining the EU is not the same as joining the EMU, so the economic differences are less relevant. Check Turkey against the lesser of the economies, and then realise that they have had substantial benefit from the EU already...
Umf

Of course Turkey would profit from becoming a EU member but it would be very expensive for the rest of the EU even if Turkey wouldn't be joining the EMU. For example, in the current situation Turkey would receive more than 60 % of all agricultural subsidies in the EU. And don't forget that every EU citizen has got the right to live and work in any EU country. With an unemployment rate of about 30 % and wages much lower than in the rest of Europe, I suppose there would a lot more emigrants from Turkey than we have seen so far.
That said, in principle I am not against accepting Turkey as an EU member but I don't think the country is ready for it at this stage...

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 03:22
The West does not necessarily "hate" Islam. It is most definitely the other way around. We are not allowed to live in Saudi Arabia, and living in Turkey would be dangerous for a Westerner, yet they have been allowed to live in Europe. And they have taken advantage of the original agreement. In case you forget, the Turks were allowed into Germany as "guest workers" after WW2. The arrangement was meant to be quite temporary and beneficial to both parties.. they get to come to the West, make a tidy living for a time, then they get a "golden handshake" and go back home, with enough money to start their own businesses. Well they didn't go back home, for the most part. Why? They "didn't want to." Big surprise there. :rolleyes: A strong government would have said "sorry, bud, but you have to go now", but the government by that time was infested with feminized weaklings who just couldn't say no. How would you feel, personally, if you invited someone into your home as a guest for a period of time and that person took advantage of your kindness, raided your refrigerator, knocked up your daughters with their kids, forced you to work harder to support them, and then your wife insisted that it would be unkind to ask them to leave. Can you understand when it is reduced to this microcosm? Watch Boudu sauvé des eaux or the American remake Down and Out in Beverly Hills for a dramatization...

There was a time when Turkish and Arab customs were an interesting and exotic thing.. Europeans would take their money and go there as tourists. There was no hatred for Islam. But now that they have become unwanted guests, people are not as interested in their culture anymore.. it is seen as a menacing danger to their own. And even if a European had to travel to Egypt or Istanbul to experience the culture which has now elbowed its way into his very home, it would be unsafe, because nuts like OBL have rallied their people to hate us, and it would be more dangerous for us to go there now.

Just please don't use words like "hate" so lightly. People do not like to be bullied with such words when they see themselves as defending their homes and families.

Umfriend
16th December 2002, 03:30
Sorry, I never meant to say that I thought the west (or anyone specific) hates Islam. I was trying to point out that this could re-inforce an exisiting prejudice on the side of many Muslims about the way the west views Islam.
Umf

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 03:34
Well, as long as Israel exists, I think most Muslims will blame us and think we are bastards. If they stopped, then someone would rouse them to start again.. somehow I think that will always be the central issue for them.

thop
16th December 2002, 03:46
Not as long Israel exists, KvH, but as long as Palestina does NOT exist.
Besides, i don't want Turkey in the EU so fast (starting negotiations 2005 sounds like a fair choice to me). They've got some work do to first. Because as i see it now the EU will be only giving to them, i don't see them much giving back.

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 04:14
I doubt that they can completely change their ways, solve their internal problems, and become as economically viable as Western European countries in 3 years.

Schorsch
16th December 2002, 04:43
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
There was a time when Turkish and Arab customs were an interesting and exotic thing.. Europeans would take their money and go there as tourists. There was no hatred for Islam. But now that they have become unwanted guests, people are not as interested in their culture anymore.. it is seen as a menacing danger to their own. And even if a European had to travel to Egypt or Istanbul to experience the culture which has now elbowed its way into his very home, it would be unsafe, because nuts like OBL have rallied their people to hate us, and it would be more dangerous for us to go there now.

That sounds as if visiting Turkey was something dangerous - in fact, last year almost 3 million German tourists spent their holidays in Turkey. I've never been there, but I know a lot of people who enjoyed their stay in Turkey very much and had nothing but praise for the hospitality of the Turkish people. It is a mistake to believe that we are "unwanted guests" there. Quite a few people in Turkey earn their living with tourism and they certainly don't give a damn what OBL wants them to believe...

GNEP
16th December 2002, 04:46
Ditto to Schorsch.

I have spent some time in Turkey, and found it to be one of the friendliest places I have been to. Far friendlier than London, that's for sure. :)

Gnep

Novdid
16th December 2002, 05:31
Originally posted by thop
Besides, i don't want Turkey in the EU so fast (starting negotiations 2005 sounds like a fair choice to me). They've got some work do to first. Because as i see it now the EU will be only giving to them, i don't see them much giving back.

Couldn't agree more, Turkey has a long way to go before they can even barely qualify. I don't see them becoming a part of EU this decade. The country would become a very heavy burden for the other members if they were to enter the union today.

Novdid
16th December 2002, 05:33
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
I doubt that they can completely change their ways, solve their internal problems, and become as economically viable as Western European countries in 3 years.

It's supposed to be the date they start negotiations. The new members entering now have been negotiating with the EU for many years.

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 10:13
Sorry if my impressions of Turkey's safety were wrong. Whenever you hear about any Westerner going to Turkey, though, it seems to be that they experienced some sort of hell like the guy in Midnight Express. You always hear about drug cartels and organized crime and Keyser Sose and such being from Turkey. ;)

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to get thrown in jail there..

K6-III
16th December 2002, 10:16
Serious punishment has a historical benefit of deterring crime.....

The PIT
16th December 2002, 10:17
Remember Good news is no news. So a load of tourists coming back from Turkey with happy smiley faces ain't going to sell many papers. However one Tourist filled by bullet holes sells loads of papers so thats why you hear the negatives.

GNEP
16th December 2002, 10:29
Yeah - and (dare I say this? :)) I felt much more at ease in Turkey than in Greece. And Greece is even in the Euro zone now!!!

MJA
16th December 2002, 10:38
Let's be honest here - if you list all the reasons why it would be financially harmful to the EU for Turkey to join you'll notice that at least half of them apply to France as well :)

GNEP
16th December 2002, 10:39
HAHAHAHAHAAHHAA*10 @ MJA

KvHagedorn
16th December 2002, 10:40
I suppose that's all true.. I don't really find a vacation in Mexico all that appealing for those same reasons, but everyone says I'm nuts. :D

efty
16th December 2002, 11:24
I guess you are all ignoring the human rights issue with Turkey. They have consistently been listed by amnesty for human rights violations. They have, for years, denied the Kurdish population the right to use their own language, have their own schools etc. They have a looooonggg record of political prisoners. Most resently a jurnalist was murdered because of his views. In 1998 there was a soft coup and Erbakan was thrown out. Not to mention the occupation of Cyprus since 1974.

I do think that all these are compelling enough. Turkey has a long way to go in order to become trully democratic.

Novdid
16th December 2002, 12:46
Yes efty I agree, those issues are the most troublesome.

GNEP
17th December 2002, 02:40
Indeed. Although actually setting a date "to start discussion on entry" hopefully will force a dialogue on the human rights issues. As far as I know, Turkey is improving its record; but as it (I am sure) will be made 101% clear such that abuses will not be tolerated, and any seen/heard of will jeopoardise (sp?) their position as *potential* entrants, then I see it as a good thing that 2004 was mentioned. What we *don't* need is US/UK/NATO interference due to the "strategic" nature of Turkey, as it takes away some of the EU's bargaining power re. human rights.

Gnep

K6-III
17th December 2002, 09:31
Most of Turkey's changes for the better have occured within the last 5 years, especially in regard to the Kurds....

RedRed
17th December 2002, 12:34
Turkey is as thick as champ that it didnt 'join the club'. However most of the pressure for it to join cam from the US. It doesnt come close to qualification - and was rejected. Efty is right, but the whole economic business as well means that it doesnt have a hope of joining at the moment.

human rights - failed
unresolved territorial disputes with member states- failed
rampant inflation - failed
piss-poor wages & employment conditions - failed
High unemployment - failed
next to no social services - failed

I cant remember all the criteria, but thats enough to start with. I am surprised that the EU even agreed to discuss it again in only 3 years..!!!


The EU is not a club for a few countries to lift themselves while the others get a cheap labourforce.

RedRed