"war" on terrorism is the new excuse to be a cheapskate

[Wombat]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/11/29/bush.raises/index.html

[High_Jumbllama]

He'll get away with it easy. As for attracting workers with this economy, workers will take what they can get, myself included.

[Wombat]

"This economy?" The economy is fine. Unemployment is only around 6% or so, and that's probably actually about optimal.

[Joel]

"This economy?" The economy is fine. Unemployment is only around 6% or so, and that's probably actually about optimal.

I'm sure all the thousands of people who have been laid off over the last several months will find that very comforting. Of course someone who still has a job will find that easy to say.

Joel

[Wombat]

Yes, and some people who frequently speak without properly educating themselves will yet again find their foot in their mouth.
I was laid off in September, I just don't make tons of "woe is me" bullshit noise here on the forums.
I still don't think the economy is bad. It's more market whiplash. A little more time and companies will realize that trying to live quarter-to-quarter is detrimental in the long run. There are a lot of healthy companies that never forgot that, they just don't make many headlines.

[Dr Mordrid]

The overall economy is just fine judging by the stores around here. In fact stores are having land office business here in the midwest. One in Indiana had a huge line of Christmas shoppers forming at 3:00 AM when the store didn't open until 9:00 AM

And lets not forget that historically speaking an unemployment rate of 5% in the US is considered "full employment" because of the outdated manner in which those numbers are generated. This number as currently constituted considers such things as seasonal, temporary and school age summer employees being laid off or quitting, which are hardly un-predictable events. It also includes kids looking for after-school employment and other such non-disasterous events.

The seasonal/temporaries would include, for example, people who work as landscape or construction workers in the upper midwest and west (Minnesota, North Dakota, Michigan, Wisconsin etc.), which is hardly a job loss caused by the economy. Once the cold part of winter sets in the ground can be frozen to a depth of 40" in these regions. Anyone care to dig with C4 or dynamite?

Anyhow; once such seasonals are laid off in the north many go south and work there for the winters duration, becoming a portion of what we call the "snowbird" population; which also includes winter vacationers, but that's another story. When these seasonals leave the south in the spring they again get counted in the unemployment statistics, which of course causes an upward error in the numbers due to the double-dip reporting.

It also counts auto workers who are laid off for model changeovers. This is hardly a long-term job loss, lasting from 1-3 months tops. Most of them I know are making damned good money in the remainder of the year, often working many hours of overtime, and end up using the changeover as extra vacation time.

One example is a family we know where the husband is an auto worker and the wife is a teacher. Their schedules matched up this summer in July; she was still on summer break and he went into model changeover. They spent three weeks of that time in Cancun Mexico, yet he was being counted as "unemployed" at the time

On a side note; their total family income is about $140k to $150k a year. Now you know why most cars cost $20,000 USD and up (WAY up) and school property taxes on homes run $2,000 USD/yr and up (often $5000/yr), even for elderly/retired/disabled property owners who have fixed incomes.

"Look for the union label...."

Dr. Mordrid

[Umfriend]

Just to make sure I get your side note, Dr. Mordrid, is it your opinion that (1) $20,000 and up) for a car is too expensive, and (2) this is due to the labor costs of auto workers, and (3) this is because of the unions?

And if so, do you have a problem with that and if yes, what would that problem be?

Umf

[Wombat]

Buy Japanese then. It's hard to tell if purchasing a car from company X is beneficial to the economy these days anyway. Honda has a good bit of assembly in the US, and American companies keep NAFTAing their business to Mexico anyway.

[Umfriend]

Wombat, if that was a reaction to my post, then I don't get it.....
Umf

[Joel]

Well I will be sure to tell the bank, that owns the mortage on my house, my wife and the kids that two guys on the forums says that everything is just optimal and that I shouldn't worry about it when the severence I got when I got laid off runs out. Then again I was one of the lucky ones who actually got something. There are all those other thousands who got nothing. But then again if I didn't have a house, wife and kids I probably would not be worrying about it nor if I had some other form of income coming in.

Joel

[Greebe]

Kinda reminds me of the Ford Union banning all import cars from their parking lot... when the car in question actually had more "Made in America" parts than the Fords did (and that's a double slam)

Wombat, Have you ever felt the hardship of being unemployeed, while having all the bills come down on you when the previous paychecks only lasted week to week supporting a wife and child? Nope, you may understand the hardship, but have no true comprehension of it.

Doc, Blew your knee out 15 years ago, pull an early retirement, and draw Social Security. Fine no problem with that. But me on the flipside blew my left knee out 15 years ago, shattered my right tibia in an accident caused by another a couple of years later, only to have your right hip broken into three pieces 7 years after that in a freak accident and I get nothing... and still do hard labour if need be.

I see both of you as the extreme left and extereme right without a clue as to what's going on in the middle (ie majority)

[Wombat]

Wombat, Have you ever felt the hardship of being unemployeed, while having all the bills come down on you when the previous paychecks only lasted week to week supporting a wife and child? Nope, you may understand the hardship, but have no true comprehension of it.

Nope, I've just been the child there. My father died in a car accident, with no life insurance.

[Greebe]

and that with you as a child on the recieving end of what I'm refering to... to deal with it directly you have not (kinda like second hand smoke).

[Dogbert]

Guys,

I don't know about U.S economy, but I can sure tell you that things here and in Europe are far from being great.
I've started looking for an apartment (to buy) close to my parents (not a very good neighbourhood). Prices here are between 120k - 180k (USD) for apartments from 2.5 to 5 rooms who will need to be redone (stip the walls, redo all electricity and water etc.) which should cost 10-20k.
I don't have that money. Actually I don't even have 10% of that.
To take such a morgage would mean that I have to be sure I have a job for at least the next 10 years. With the economy as it is now, I don't really know what's waiting for me next month once my project here ends.

Like I said, I don't know US economy, yet I clearly remember Nortel sending over 10,000 workers home and closing many telecom parks (I worked in a company that did projects for nortel here) and I've heard about Enron and others. From many Israelis I've heard that silicon valley is almost empty since all the dot-com bubble blew up. For some people there (kind of hard for me to see over 100,000 people as "some") things are far from being bright and shiny lately.

[Dr Mordrid]

Originally posted by Greebe

Doc, Blew your knee out 15 years ago, pull an early retirement, and draw Social Security. Fine no problem with that. But me on the flipside blew my left knee out 15 years ago, shattered my right tibia in an accident caused by another a couple of years later, only to have your right hip broken into three pieces 7 years after that in a freak accident and I get nothing... and still do hard labour if need be.

I see both of you as the extreme left and extereme right without a clue as to what's going on in the middle (ie majority)

Oh man....you just hit the ****ING RED BUTTON....

FLAME ON

The difference being that I developed third stage RSDS, a chronic nerve condition that causes extended and chronic pain past the injury site all the way to the sole of the foot, a localized neruoma at the injury site (large mass consisting of tangled & cross-connected nerve fibers) which I'm told cannot be excised without risking even more pain, a totally crushed bursa (pes anserine) in the knee which means the local tendons rub against each other inflamming them too and generalized peripheral neuropaty in that limb.

The neuroma and RSDS cause my leg to feel excruciating pain, turn fire red and even sweat when the temperature changes up or down or when it's touched....even by clothing.

As a result I have to deal with taking high doses of seizure meds (to partialy calm the peripheral nerves), spinal injections to help numb the nerve roots (a little), sundry other painkillers and a few other drugs and medical devices (TENS stimulators etc.) you wouldn't want to deal with in your worst nightmare.

Therefore; if you had what I have you most certainly would not be able to "do hard labour if need be". It's more like "do half or less of what needs be done between mind and body numbing mediacations".

Uppance: I earned my SSI the hard way.... Pfffttt....

FLAME OFF

As far as my animosity about unions goes, I came by that honestly: I spent over 10 years as a union steward, committeman and contract negotiator. I also was a founding member of a hospital union for professional employees, meaning I was one of those who organized the unions certification election by the National Labor Relations Board.

In 10 years you find out a lot about how little unions actually care about their membership and how much more they care about furthing their own political ambitions....which is often at odds with the formers best interests.

There are good things unions can do, but unfortunately things are not as they were. Now all they are interested in is rasing a disproportionate share of $$$$ for political campaigns, thereby distorting the political process, and keeping incompetent members from being fired. Example: teachers and civil service unions.

Also; remember I'm from the Detroit area. This gives one a very good perspective on how union pay and benefit increases affect local economies.

As soon as the UAW gets a 5% raise the other companies up their prices 7% or more, hammering everyone elses purchasing power. In short: their greed drives up inflation to the detriment of the community as a whole.

Dr. Mordrid