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VigilAnt
16th November 2002, 00:01
Please discuss the editorial with the above title found on www.murc.ws in this thread.

Matrox Graphics. How do I take them as an entity now? How should I? At one time they were the best there was. Their legend began with Millenium. At that time, they had about as many employees as they do now (since all the layoffs and resignations have come down). They were focused and they were effective. They concentrated on one thing and they did it like not anyone else could. They weren't trying to make markets where there were no markets. They simply produced the highest performance card at any price and had the most features. It was not novelty card. It was not a made to be a mass-market card. It was meant to kick arse and it did. This product allowed Matrox to grow very large. They won OEM contracts. Everybody who was a geek wanted a Millenium. Some time after all this, Matrox Graphics found they could make a lot of money producing old hat to fit OEMs. Each successive generation of card lost more of that shine that made the Millenium what it was. The focus on the brute performance and the quality that made it so appealing was eroding. Matrox Graphics fell into the rut. The G100 came and flopped, cost big bucks in the numerous revisions they had to make to get it right. G200 came and was a disappointment. It could have been good. But the focus was no longer to put all effort into kicking arse and stomping pcbs. G400 was a huge step over the G200, but was still plagued with problems internally. The card should have been 50% faster than it was. The card should have had better memory performance. The card should have had a few more features. But in the game of trying to be too many things for too many people, it lost some of its shine. Even though it was off target for what the people at Matrox wanted, the public wanted it. But Matrox could not keep up with demand because of poor planning and IMHO poor distribution decisions.

The powers that be thought that going with another high end card would be a mistake. Even though they already had the technology for an entirely different core ready to go, they instead went with a G450. Dual head for the masses was the idea. Not a bad idea, but they forgot one little thing. There has to be a flagship card to push the mass market card along. Having a high performance, top of the line card is very much important, because when people think of a brand name like Matrox, Intel, Nvidia, they usally think of their best model. That is what allows people to think about the lower end models like Celerons and MX's. Not only does keeping a high end model make a good name for the brand, but it also keeps the technology current and allows it to filter down into the low end cards when the time and need comes to improve them. The same is the story with the G800, oops G550.

Parhelia, the new hope. I had high expectations for this part because it seemed that perhaps Matrox was getting back in form. They went for the throat when penning the chip. If it hadn't been for the eTV, we probably would have seen the card last year, and it would have been recieved much better. Instead, Matrox was playing catch up. Because they were neglecting their high end needs by focusing their resources on the low end market, they lost out. The end result was a decent card that could have been much more than what it is. Parhelia is one great card. I just bought one, it cost me dearly but I have no regrets. It truly is a good card. It just is a shame that they could not see that the card would not fly in the high end market without reaching the people's expectations first.

I know it may sound like a bitch session, but I would like to offer some advice to Matrox to dig themselves out of the hole they made with the Parhelia mistakes. :

1. Ditch the idea of the Triple Head for the mass market idea. You guys at Matrox Graphics know what I am talking about. If you want a Triple Head card for the masses, then use the current Parhelia core for it. This would allow you to fix your mistake with the overstock you have now.

2. Use the current Parhelia core in a multimedia type card. Your PCB already has foot prints for what a lot of videophiles want. Cater to them. Parhelia has a lot features that aren't out there that would entice some good money your way with such a product.

3. Release the Parhelia 8X core. It will benefit you right now. Put it in the place of the current Parhelia 128 and price it at perhaps 10 percent lower. The fixes and the added performance alone would allow it to outsell the current Parhelia in short order.

4. Move forward with Pitou. Get it right. You and I both know it can perform, don't go cheap. Listen to your people who know how. They are not stupid and will make your card a winner.

5. After all this, if you want to make a mass market card, do it in the form of an easily trimmed core, such as the old Parhelia core or perhaps a trimmed Pitou core. But don't invest precious resources into making a whole new revision just to make a cheap card.

That about concludes today's steam popper, now it's time to take in an afternoon lager and hope that someone at Matrox will take the time to consider at least the first 4 points.

VigilAnt

typedef enum
16th November 2002, 01:51
I agree with many of your points. In my opinion, it seems like there's some leadership issues with Matrox. I'm not really sure if the marketing team is driving engineering to the extent that has been described or not...I'm not really privy to that type of information.

This is what I know...Just a couple of observations...

1. N-Patches: The darn thing supports this feature. Why the heck isn't it enabled? Jeez, you would grab a good dozen or so games that support it. I fail to understand why this isn't enabled.

2. Anisotropic Filtering: This is just inexusable, IMHO. The original GeForce-256 supported the same level/quality as the Parhelia.

3. Surround Gaming: I will sit here and swear up and down that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread; however, I'm a realist. I bought > $3,000 in LCD's to be able to enjoy it. There are a lot of people who are lucky to have ONE monitor, much less 3. This should be a feature that you can get ON TOP OF a base solution. IE Parhelia+ model. They've got to figure a way to get their products down in the mainstream market.

4. Price: Aleady mentioned it...likewise, they need to hit several price points. You just can't focus on the $300-400 market. Look at the success of nVidia. They put all that R&D into the highend product...about 2 months after launch, release the budget variations using a combination of memory/clock/PCB differences. ATI has obviously caught on.

5. Lack of Evangelizing features: I cannot understand why Matrox has not been proactive in showing the world the strengths of their product...You simply cannot just HOPE that websites are going to do this for you, as evidenced by dickheads like Kyle Bennett. Do some white papers! If nobody will do them, do em yourself. nVidia does it all the time, as well as ATI. Promote your own products!

WyWyWyWy
16th November 2002, 02:41
1. Ditch the idea of the Triple Head for the mass market idea. You guys at Matrox Graphics know what I am talking about. If you want a Triple Head card for the masses, then use the current Parhelia core for it. This would allow you to fix your mistake with the overstock you have now.


Necessary?
Triple Head is one selling point of Matrox, I think it is essential to be on higher end cards.



2. Use the current Parhelia core in a multimedia type card. Your PCB already has foot prints for what a lot of videophiles want. Cater to them. Parhelia has a lot features that aren't out there that would entice some good money your way with such a product.


eTV? :D That would be really cool!



3. Release the Parhelia 8X core. It will benefit you right now. Put it in the place of the current Parhelia 128 and price it at perhaps 10 percent lower. The fixes and the added performance alone would allow it to outsell the current Parhelia in short order.


Would that make the overstocked current P even more overstocked?



4. Move forward with Pitou. Get it right. You and I both know it can perform, don't go cheap. Listen to your people who know how. They are not stupid and will make your card a winner.


No comment. (since I just bought a P!!!)



5. After all this, if you want to make a mass market card, do it in the form of an easily trimmed core, such as the old Parhelia core or perhaps a trimmed Pitou core. But don't invest precious resources into making a whole new revision just to make a cheap card.

Very true indeed!
That's why GeForce4 MX series is such a good seller.

Nappe1
16th November 2002, 02:49
I agree with VigilAnt at least on release of AGP 8x version core. It fixes quite few problems on original core and should raise yields as also lower manufacturing costs.

But we must remember that, at least majority us don't know excat numbers how much parhelia development cost and if I have understood right, Matrox sells cards for living, sooo there is always problem of est. sell amount / price -ratio.

anyways, who lives will see...

knirfie
16th November 2002, 05:20
now if just matrox would listen to you...

CaineTanathos
16th November 2002, 05:42
message to Matrox : release Pitou summer 2003

:)

oh and make sure the memory controllers are the fastest on the world and be sure there is an occlussion unit in it :D

[GDI]Raptor
16th November 2002, 05:48
You have alot of good points VigilAnt, let's hope the right pepole in Matrox lissen to what you say!

I think if Matrox invests in equipment and in good pepole, and start making right descitions they can become very big!

The first thing they should to now is to release PArhelia 8x ASAP, and then maybe make an eTV version of the card (Matrox Video Group sholud be responisble for drivers & tools) and get PArhelia 2 out next sommer at the latest (And be shure it can compete with NV30 and the upcomming R350) Then a "value DX9 card fir the masses" in the autum (good time before the chrismas rush)

And of course, good drivers is very important. Focus 95% of driver development on the Parhelia platform..... (perhaps they do this today.... i don't know)

I am a Perhalia owner myself, and i realy have to say, it's a very good card, performas well enough in 3D games for me, and the quality is very good! But Anisotropic Filtering is something Matrox should look into ASAP (Is it only a driver problem? What is the problem?)

borat
16th November 2002, 06:16
lets just remember matrox have finite resources here, its all very well saying release the 8x core then an etv then develope pitou then improve drivers etc. what they must realise is that the current parhelia will only sell to enthusiasts, they cant have sold very many at the moment and like you say have lots of overstock, so they need a part which will perform favourably in benchmarks with the compitition, doesnt matter what we say about benchmarks on here when joe public buy a pc they want the thing that looks the fastest so they want ther ati's and geforces not an overpriced matrox part which looks like it performs only half the speed of the compitition. if the parhelia 8x can do this then yes put it into action, if not then by the time it hits the shelves then it will be a pile of rubbish so they should save resources and move to the next gen product. what was parhelia really aimed at?doesnt benchmark in games that well, and has serious issues in professional apps performance wise also its way too expensive to be an oem solution. they need to focus on a market and have the best product in that market, faa is great triple head is also great and i cant think that it will add much cost to the card as the way i see it you just send double the resolution to the second head then split it into 2 thats why you can only run it stretched so keep it, but focus on improving consumer oriented figures if thats your market.

borat
16th November 2002, 06:22
if they cant get a competitive high end product out then they must reduce the price of parhelia quickly while it is still a respectable part as although this would dent profits they would shift stock and get some money back from it. at $200 it would sell very well but only for the next few months.

TdB
16th November 2002, 06:59
2. Anisotropic Filtering: This is just inexusable, IMHO. The original GeForce-256 supported the same level/quality as the Parhelia.

actually, even the old g400 chip had 4-tap anisotropic filtering, they just didn't include it as an option in the powerdesk gui. :rolleyes:

I know some murcers had succes in enabling it in Serious sam 1/2 by hacking the registry.
it was, of course, horrible slow, but they could have used it as another bullet in their feature-list, like nvidia did with their T&L.

who knows it might have been fast enough in the games that were out at that time, like those that were locked in a 640*480 resolution (especially if the g400 had been 50% faster!:eek: just imagine were matrox would have been now, if that was the case! a g400max at geforce2-speed!:eek: ), just giving the end-user the choice to enable/disable it, would have been nice. :rolleyes:

Chrono_Wanderer
16th November 2002, 07:10
thanks for the great news vigil!

totally agree with you. matrox should at least get their repetition back by releasing the 8x core logic. IMO matrox should now debug Pitou and make sure they don't make flaws like they did on the P with banding issue/anisotropic (if aniso is hardware problem). IMO Matrox should first make sure Pitou has extreme IQ/features/3d&2d quailty before going into speed. Triple head is a good idea, but would be a log better if it can do 1600x1200 per head with full DVI. Not sure but Intel may be working on 64-bit agp 8x specs. Maybe after the 32-bit 8x AGP on Pitou matrox should make a revision of 64-bit agp bus part. Stick with the traditional June release. According the Vigil and others Pitou is taped out. maybe matrox should just make heavy beta testing/debug on it, and if this is the case, start tweaking the core. Honestly, i think matrox should now foucs on feature sets. good feature sets can get the core sell well (and of course decent speed probably like the 9700 if we are taking about next summer). With decent speed and lots of good features/quality... matrox will certainly be back as a big brand.

imo for next summer when pitou is out, make the P 8x for the mass. that way, they can still get some money back, unlike now... i bet P project has lost matrox a lot of money :eek: :rolleyes:

Chrono_Wanderer
16th November 2002, 07:13
Originally posted by TDB


actually, even the old g400 chip had 4-tap anisotropic filtering, they just didn't include it as an option in the powerdesk gui. :rolleyes:



totally agree. matrox should reveal the feature set on the G-cards. also the TnL + vertex shader on the G550. After all, the vertex shaders on the G550 seems powerful.

***sigh... i still want pixel shader emulated... software rendering all the way***:D :p :eek:

Rimfaxe
16th November 2002, 08:00
Originally posted by VigilAnt
There has to be a flagship card to push the mass market card along. Having a high performance, top of the line card is very much important, because when people think of a brand name like Matrox, Intel, Nvidia, they usally think of their best model. That is what allows people to think about the lower end models like Celerons and MX's. Not only does keeping a high end model make a good name for the brand, but it also keeps the technology current and allows it to filter down into the low end cards when the time and need comes to improve them. The same is the story with the G800, oops G550.
VigilAnt

Yes you are right!

How did AMD get that big in CPU?!? Not by selling cheapest low performance CPUs. They have a best performance/price ratio and some frigging fast CPUs to. That what counts and after that the mass market will buy your, Matrox cheaper, low end card.
As simple as that! :cool:

Dr Mordrid
16th November 2002, 08:09
My 2 cents;

1. Sell off the overstocked P cores to OEM's. This reduces inventory, brings more cash flow than letting them sit in a warehouse until they're totally worthless and clears the decks for something productive .

2. Get in gear re: the P2. It's been said many times that you have to spend money to make money. It's true. In cases like this cutting development outlays in the short term is comitting hara-kiri in the long term.

3. People who do multimedia (video etc.) love Matrox's cards for the DVDMAX feature. The problem is that this currently costs one of the cards monitor ports. Cater to them by putting a totally independent analog output on all new cards so they can use multiple monitors and still preview to a TV.

My preference would be component, but S-Video would work and not need a large connector.

Dr. Mordrid

TdB
16th November 2002, 08:10
Originally posted by Chrono_Wanderer


totally agree. matrox should reveal the feature set on the G-cards. also the TnL + vertex shader on the G550. After all, the vertex shaders on the G550 seems powerful.


the problem with the g550 vertex shader is that, even though it has enough registers, it isnīt programmable(afaik), so there is no way they can use it as a dx8 vertex shader, I donīt know if it could "emulate" hardwired dx7 T&L in the g550 vertexshader though, it might give a heavy boost in games like ut2003 in lowres, although it would still be bandwidth-limited.


***sigh... i still want pixel shader emulated... software rendering all the way***
you would be looking a single-digit framerates in the best case, some things canīt be emulated effectively in the cpu, the whole point of pixelshading is that the computing takes place in the gpu, where all the needed texture-information is.
it would be like comparing the speed of "remote procedure calls" through a network, with the speed of procedures stored in the local cpu-cache.

UtwigMU
16th November 2002, 08:52
Originally posted by Haig on Matrox tech support forums (http://forum.matrox.com/mgaforum/Forum8/HTML/001589.html)
But let's take a hypocritical thought to play with...

If there would be new chip revision of Parhelia on the works, would it be a good idea launch it before holiday season?

If it's ready, if the architecture is the same as the current P, and if it's aimed at a different market, yes it would be a good idea.

And IF this would happen, would it mean replacing old Parhelias with a new version or maybe introducing new cards using new revision on paraller?

I think that if P128 and P256 are selling well AND if whatever is next is headed for a different market, then running them in | | is not a big deal.

From Vigilant's blurb "Use the current Parhelia core in a multimedia type card." and from Haig "...AND if whatever is next is headed for a different market..." we can assume that there is Parhelia revision (8x part not Pitou) in the works or just before launch (Mojerator Greese announced something.).


1. Ditch the idea of the Triple Head for the mass market idea. You guys at Matrox Graphics know what I am talking about. If you want a Triple Head card for the masses, then use the current Parhelia core for it. This would allow you to fix your mistake with the overstock you have now.

IMO release value 64MB triple-head card based on the current Parhelia core that is overstocked. Disable or fix anny features that have issues. (to clear the stock)

Replace P128 and P256 with 8x core. This will yield new reviews and if the performance is relly 20% better and issues are fixed, the reviews should be favorable and this is the high time for releasing products for X-mas shopping season. If the price is right (between Radeon 9700pro and GF4 Ti4600) this one should sell better than current Parhelia.


2. Use the current Parhelia core in a multimedia type card. Your PCB already has foot prints for what a lot of videophiles want. Cater to them. Parhelia has a lot features that aren't out there that would entice some good money your way with such a product.

Depends: If the Multimedia chips and boards are already produced, go for it. If not use 8x parts for performance parts (128 and 256) and current core for 64MB value triple head and multimedia card


3. Release the Parhelia 8X core. It will benefit you right now. Put it in the place of the current Parhelia 128 and price it at perhaps 10 percent lower. The fixes and the added performance alone would allow it to outsell the current Parhelia in short order.

I agree. Multimedia people don't need higher framerates, AA and FAA. Gamers and AEC|VIZ professionals who buy $300 or $600 cards do.


4 and 5: Pitou needs to take performance crown or at least equalize leading part from competition. (either R350 or NV30 in May - June 2003) to turn heads of the press and position Matrox as leading 3D company againg.

For value parts (like G450) just use Parhelia 8x core and disable some features in the PCB or through drivers.

The problem is that Matrox ATM does not have a competitive product in any segment.

thop
16th November 2002, 09:04
i already said it many times: release a 64MB P with SH at a competitive price (~170$?)! the vast majority of users don't even run DH, let alone TH.

thop
16th November 2002, 09:06
oh and speaking about overproduction: it seems that matrox has a faible for this. just look at matroxshop.com, they must still be sitting on thousands of m3d's :D

Pace
16th November 2002, 10:15
Yeah, if they have got loads of M3Ds, then take note - cut the price now, not later.

I might even buy one ;)

Faramir1966
16th November 2002, 11:22
Or maybe they should bundle them with a Parhelia ;)

Buy one P and get a m3D for free :D

Kurt
16th November 2002, 11:25
Originally posted by thop
i already said it many times: release a 64MB P with SH at a competitive price (~170$?)! the vast majority of users don't even run DH, let alone TH.

Ppl like to think they *COULD*. That's why nobody buys a PC with a CPU soldered on it, even if 90% of the ppl never upgrade it -they buy a new one instead.

IMO they should sell the bulk of the P chips at a discount to HP/IBM/<insert name here>. Gigabyte had cut a deal with them in the past to make their own boards with Matrox chips. They should do the same again so as to sell the chips without having to invest in the production of the actual boards. Then introduce the P-II in the spring and eventually the P-8x as a replacement to the G550 (or as a lower-end P -Ati and Nvidia are doing just that with their line up) or as a video-enthusiast board (ā la All-In-Wonder -the G550 is a decent board which is already paid for so it probably generates more profit in the low end).

Wombat
16th November 2002, 11:56
Ppl like to think they *COULD*. That's why nobody buys a PC with a CPU soldered on it, even if 90% of the ppl never upgrade it -they buy a new one instead. No, they used to be permanently attached. They're socketed now because it's cheaper to repair and salvage.

Polski
16th November 2002, 12:59
In Matrox we trust.

thop
16th November 2002, 13:01
Buy one P and get a m3D for free
what about the other way around? :D

UtwigMU
16th November 2002, 14:10
Is that m3D just accelerator?

Kruzin
16th November 2002, 14:13
That M3D is just a doorstop.

Kurt
16th November 2002, 15:23
Originally posted by Wombat
No, they used to be permanently attached. They're socketed now because it's cheaper to repair and salvage.

They stopped doing that in the 80386 days...then again the x87 wasn't included either...there usually was a free socket for it... :):D:)

ElDonAntonio
17th November 2002, 00:53
:)

Wombat
17th November 2002, 01:33
No, they didn't stop then. I had an SX2/50 that was permanently on, and I'm pretty sure I remember some Pentiums that way too. Anyway, the point is that they did it for their own in-house benefit, not to make it "upgradable."

chaoliang
17th November 2002, 04:19
Originally posted by thop
i already said it many times: release a 64MB P with SH at a competitive price (~170$?)! the vast majority of users don't even run DH, let alone TH.


Yes, yes, yes!!! I also belong to the normal human beings and have one single head only. Matrox should not force these people to buy another neck without packing a second head in the package! It doesn't look nice running around with ONE head and two necks!:D

Xplora
17th November 2002, 05:49
Everyone thinking that Matrox can get on top with features alone is kidding themselves. Pitou MUST be out as soon as possible, and its going to need to be around as fast as a Ti4600 with EVERYTHING turned on, in a higher resolution (1280, even 1600 perhaps?).

The card needs to be such an obvious choice no gamer would dream of being without it. Graphics companies live and die on their last revision. nV got to the top of the heap within two GPU cycles. ATI are the same right now.

Bear in mind, I do say Gamer. No one else in the consumer market needs such power, however, the review sites will promote the cards for them.

Management simply MUST swallow their pride on this and take a chance. Their last sure thing in the horse race fell over badly, and it needs to be put down.

DGhost
17th November 2002, 09:17
Gamers drive so little of the market its not even funny. Especially the High End gamers market, with the $300+ video cards.

The internet is horribly deceptive because everywhere you look its Enthusiasts here, Enthusiasts there, 3Dmark here, UT2k3 there...

it still is simply not the case. like has been said elsewhere, a large majority of NVidias video card sales has been MX level cards. from personal experience selling these things i have to agree.

That being said, if Matrox is gonna charge $400 for a brand new video card it *better* be competetive with performance... Parhelia (as good as it does perform) is about 1 year (could be streched to 6 months), but looking at how rushed it is (quality and performance of drivers, quality of hardware) it would appear it was doomed from quite a while ago.

The only reason Matrox should be charging $400 card for a card like Parhelia is if they are acctually gonna do their work and get it to be a true professional card (its sooo close, but its certainly not something i would sell as one right now). Don't market it like a gaming card, not for $400. $300 would have been a good price introduction. a slimmed down one for cheaper would have been wonderful, you would probably be moving a ton and a half of them.

Matrox needed a large technology leap from what they were selling. the G450 and G550 level cards were unsutible for most games right now. Especially when you can buy an MX card (or an older GF2/GF3, or an Radeon 7xxx, 8xxx or 9000) for relatively cheap.

but, Matrox took huge jumps where they should have done baby steps... to be truely successful they needed a product that could compete with the 4200 on (relative) price and performance. to be *truely* competetive they would need a lower priced part.

they could have been successful without going gung ho at the high performance crown. if they chopped triplehead, made FAA 4x instead of 16x, dropped the core speed a bit (or kept it where it is, HEH), and dropped the price a lot... you would probably move a lot of them.

a particular card may only maintain the high performance crown for 6 months... that really is a bad choice of a market to target with the exception of to get your name out, and to get companies saying that you're the shit...

[/rant]

Kurt
17th November 2002, 09:40
Originally posted by Wombat
No, they didn't stop then. I had an SX2/50 that was permanently on, and I'm pretty sure I remember some Pentiums that way too. Anyway, the point is that they did it for their own in-house benefit, not to make it "upgradable."

I'm not saying you couldn't find them anymore, let's just say the majority has moved away from soldered chips. Heck, you can buy mbo+cpu combos from ECS and VIA with 1GH+ CPUs soldered on them. They're a niche product though.

borat
17th November 2002, 11:23
DGhost your right to an extent but the way nvidia and now ati have conquered the market is by having the fastest product then using that to pudh their brand names, if you walk into a computer store geforce and raden hold clouhght just like 3dfx used to when they had the best product. it doesnt matter if you are actually selling stiped down rubbish people like to think they are getting the best for their money and feel secure in buying something from a brand with a big reputation.

DGhost
17th November 2002, 11:36
in the same token, there are a *lot* of people who have never heard of NVidia or ATI, really have no idea what each one does, and just know they need a 3d accelerator.

and the second largest group of computer shoppers are the ones that read the requirements for a piece of software and buy a card based on the requirements and recommendations of the software.

third largest is the group that has heard of this stuff... having a high end card is one thing, as it does get the product name and brand name out...

i am glad matrox did release the parhelia as it shows that they are capable of competing... but, in a market sense it is a downright failure because there is no way you can pitch to most people that buys this stuff... they are targetting two niche markets, 1) the professional market, which i honestly think that the Parhelia is too immature and buggy for, and 2) the gamers market, where it is horribly overpriced for what it does... a $400 video card should show tangible improvements over the previous generation of high end cards, and at the time of release the Parhelia most certainly didn't do this. the current parhelia is perfect for an upper-midrange gaming card, if you are gonna be targetting that market... and there is no shame in that...

its just that Matrox doesn't appear to be getting it, or the market... it would appear that they have just been out of it far too long...

i do still love my Parhelia... it really is a great card... i do wish i didn't spend $400 on it (especially since i will probably wind up buying a new video card next summer because of the deficencies in the current product), but its a good card... :D

Wombat
17th November 2002, 12:04
and the second largest group of computer shoppers are the ones that read the requirements for a piece of software and buy a card based on the requirements and recommendations of the software. And what game manufacturer DOESN'T recommend the fastest card for their game?

Amiga Blitter
17th November 2002, 13:54
Price drop for the current and (future) product are also welcome.

40% price drop current parhelia

Tomorrow we will see the nv30 launch. A price drop is necessary.

We need more sharp idea....:rolleyes:

GT98
17th November 2002, 18:38
Originally posted by Amiga Blitter
Tomorrow we will see the nv30 launch. A price drop is necessary.


But won't be able to get one unless we are really lucky by the end of the year. not that it matters since the R9700 outperforms the P in gaming and what not, but seriously M needs to do what ATI did in the market and have mix of products that perform well. Having one card that is up to date isnt gonna cut it, need at least two more models and fix the problems they currently have.

Kurt
17th November 2002, 20:36
Originally posted by GT98


But won't be able to get one unless we are really lucky by the end of the year. not that it matters since the R9700 outperforms the P in gaming and what not, but seriously M needs to do what ATI did in the market and have mix of products that perform well. Having one card that is up to date isnt gonna cut it, need at least two more models and fix the problems they currently have.

They need to introduce a cheap version of the P. The 64MB version seemed to be the right thing to do...as long as they sell it below 250$...

Chrono_Wanderer
17th November 2002, 21:30
speaking of sockets... maybe some day we will see gfx cards with g/vpus removeable... would have been great if P, P8x and P2 are pin competible...

damn can't wait for NV30 launch... nvBlur all the way... yes nVIDIA making 2d blury

:p

DGhost
17th November 2002, 21:39
NV30 will probably offer far better picture quality than anything they have offered so far. NV officials have already stated that this is one of their highest priorities with it. They will probably have much tighter restrictions on what quality components can be used for filters, or might possibly integrate the filters into the core. the pictures of the NV28 suggest that they have already done the latter.

ElDonAntonio
17th November 2002, 22:28
I don't know but I was shocked when I saw typedef enum's pictures of his Geforce-driven monitor. I never saw a Geforce run dualhead, but I'm pretty much convinced it's useless.

Chrono_Wanderer
17th November 2002, 23:15
found this funny

http://www.nvidia.com/content/areyouready/index.asp?task=play&format=WMP&bandwidth=BROADBAND&video=thenvidiaproject

true nVIDIOT style :rolleyes:

DGhost
17th November 2002, 23:19
acctually, as lame as that one is (and the Scary Graphics one is too) i'm happy to see that the company is capable of 1) having fun like that, and 2) willing to foster projects to get employees on camera..

either way it helps boost company moral and shows that the company really does care about its employees...

silly videos tho.

ElDonAntonio
17th November 2002, 23:23
They sure have time and money to waste! a damn good sign for the company's health.

Chrono_Wanderer
17th November 2002, 23:38
just look at their data center... crazy... no wonder why matrox cannot keep up with nv's 3d (but amazingly M is still better than nv in many areas). Seriously i wonder what the M's headquarter is like. probably i will never know unless i have a chance to work there (or a raid on matrox to steal Pitou of course :D ) after all matrox engineers should not be that lame... yes... "matrox: designed by professionals for professionals" wait... that's a 3dlabs line... i will take that back ;)

i wonder how the benchies between 9700 and nv30 will be. Probably tie each other tho, since now the cpu is ironicly the bottleneck.

Wombat
17th November 2002, 23:51
That's not ironic, it's lame design. There's nothing really wrong with having the video card use the CPU for some stuff, but when it becomes THAT dependent, shame on the video card.

Kurt
18th November 2002, 02:15
Originally posted by Chrono_Wanderer
speaking of sockets... maybe some day we will see gfx cards with g/vpus removeable... would have been great if P, P8x and P2 are pin competible...

damn can't wait for NV30 launch... nvBlur all the way... yes nVIDIA making 2d blury

:p


There is (was?) a project for a standard socket for GPU (Project X, Power X? Can't remember....)

Kurt
18th November 2002, 02:26
Originally posted by Chrono_Wanderer
just look at their data center... crazy... no wonder why matrox cannot keep up with nv's 3d (but amazingly M is still better than nv in many areas). Seriously i wonder what the M's headquarter is like. probably i will never know unless i have a chance to work there (or a raid on matrox to steal Pitou of course :D ) after all matrox engineers should not be that lame... yes... "matrox: designed by professionals for professionals" wait... that's a 3dlabs line... i will take that back ;)

i wonder how the benchies between 9700 and nv30 will be. Probably tie each other tho, since now the cpu is ironicly the bottleneck.

nahh...they'll be running them on handpicked 4GHz P4 OCed to 5GHz with VapoChill :)

Ant
18th November 2002, 05:24
I'd guess rather empty by the sounds of all the lay offs.


Originally posted by Chrono_Wanderer
Seriously i wonder what the M's headquarter is like.

GNEP
18th November 2002, 05:26
Yup - sure is tough in the hard disk business these days... :)

Kurt
18th November 2002, 06:09
Originally posted by GNEP
Yup - sure is tough in the hard disk business these days... :)

hard disk-business

Ryu Connor
18th November 2002, 06:29
I'm surprised at the lack of a bullet point number six. Fixing the banding on the Parhelia.

DentyCracker
18th November 2002, 07:18
I think it is implied that the 8x part has fixed those problems. I am seriously considering buying an nforce2 based board and using the onboard video until they release the 8x Parhelia for that reason. (Need to rid myself of that KT7 now, and giving this macihine I have to my GF)

Pace
18th November 2002, 07:30
Why are you giving a macihine to your GeForce?

Peter Aragon
18th November 2002, 08:00
Probably:
GF = GirlFriend ;)

I see she's gonna get a G400DH, who would be so cruel to torture his girlfriend with a Gefarce card? :confused:

UberLord
18th November 2002, 08:07
Originally posted by Wombat
And what game manufacturer DOESN'T recommend the fastest card for their game?

Last I checked nVidia's logo was splashed over UT2003 intro screen. And there was me thinking that ATI 9700 was the fastest :rolleyes:

knirfie
18th November 2002, 11:38
Originally posted by Pace
Why are you giving a macihine to your GeForce?

;) well, now we know what kind of a life you have ;)

thop
18th November 2002, 12:05
:eek: :D

dZeus
18th November 2002, 14:22
ehm... sarcasm?

Chief_Inspector
18th November 2002, 19:10
"I'd guess rather empty by the sounds of all the lay offs."

I heard there's more coming this month and then again in Feb.

CI

SoBizarre
19th November 2002, 02:52
Gee, it looks like I missed some episodes here. What's with that <<Maxtor Users Resource Center>> stuff in Ant's signature? Boy, is he deeply frustrated or what...

Cheers,
SB

Maggi
19th November 2002, 02:57
Originally posted by Chief_Inspector
"I'd guess rather empty by the sounds of all the lay offs."

I heard there's more coming this month and then again in Feb.

CI

even more layoffs ?

Ant
19th November 2002, 05:10
Finally, it's been there 4 months and nobody spotted my little joke :)

Your prize of a m3D card is winging its way to you :D


Originally posted by SoBizarre
Gee, it looks like I missed some episodes here. What's with that <<Maxtor Users Resource Center>> stuff in Ant's signature? Boy, is he deeply frustated or what...

Cheers,
SB

GNEP
19th November 2002, 05:27
That's 'cos you haven't been posting enough over the last few months Ant... :)

thop
19th November 2002, 06:41
i did, http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?s=&postid=316113#post316113

ironically i was too subtle about so that nobody noticed that i noticed it :) where my m3d ? :)

Pace
19th November 2002, 07:08
Here, have mine. Oh wait, I don't have one. Lucky you! :)

jmcgoblue
19th November 2002, 09:32
Originally posted by thop
i already said it many times: release a 64MB P with SH at a competitive price (~170$?)! the vast majority of users don't even run DH, let alone TH.

Who would pay $170 for a 64MB P with SH, when a 128MB Ti4200 with DH can be bought for $140? I suspect that this configuration would sell even worse than the current P. If you look at the way Matrox markets the P, it's ALL about the triple head, without that there isn't much to offer. I know that the card adds other features such as 10 bit color, but that's not much of a selling point for the mainstream/OEM market.

If you want to talk about image quality, I can tell you that Nvidia has nearly caught up with Matrox in the GF 4 Ti series. I currently have a Ti4200 manufactured by Leadtek & the primary display quality is nearly identical to that of the G400 card I used to have. The secondary display is slightly less sharp, but I wouldn't say that it's noticeably fuzzy. Matrox cannot count on image quality as a point of differentiation any more, IMO.

I was really looking forward to the Parhelia, in fact I even purchased a 3rd display in anticipation, but given all of the issues around the card and the premium price, I've decided to hold off on the upgrade. I really hope that Matrox is able to survive and get their act together with the pitou, I like Matrox for their unique focus on quality and innovation, and don't want to see them dissappear. That would be bad for everyone.

DGhost
19th November 2002, 09:36
dropping dualhead is a bad idea on any level of cards. this is honestly the strongest thing that Matrox has going for them with the Parhelia, and the cost difference is negligable.

The Parhelia, while a very good card, is simply priced for the wrong market. Because of its pricing (and marketing) it will never succeed like we all want it to.

There is more to the computer industry than the enthusiast market....

GNEP
19th November 2002, 09:44
I maintain my view from previous threads - there is definitely a market for a cheaper triplehead implementation that needs zero 3D ability - the financial/trading floor market.

However I suspect that throwing together a system with cheap PCI cards might be more sensible... or use an MMS card (these sales would be cannibalised).

But still, it would be a place to get rid of some of the stockpile :)

DGhost
19th November 2002, 09:53
If they really wanted to take the market, they would have to adapt. They would need to offer a superior feature set, similar or better peformance, and still have it priced reasonably. in order to truely be competative the price would have to be lower than that of their competetors.

Look at AMD vs Intel. Look at 3Dfx vs. NVidia. Both are instances where the market leader has been successfully challenged by another company who was willing to throw every feature they could into their product, and price it lower than what the existing products are. and too boot it increased their performance by a large margine.

there are more examples than just those two...

I personally say its about time to start a pricewar... I would love it if high end 3d accelerators dropped in price.. $300 or $400 for these things is reduculous anymore. that is more than any other part in most systems now days, unless you are buying Intel.

buuttt... i doubt Matrox knows how to be competetive anymore... if they tried it they would have their ass handed back to them by both ATI and NVidia...

ganyaik
19th November 2002, 11:29
VigilAnt: Was the info posted on the main page the one that you were waiting to get approval for? No offense here, I'm just curious.
NV30 is about to be priced at ~400$ once it finally hits the shelves. Matrox please do something to be competitive! Don't you want my money(and a lots of others' too)? Give us a _good_ card, so that I can retire my G200... It's quite old and I don't wanna put anything else in my sys that I'm less satisfied with then I was with my G200 in '98...

thop
19th November 2002, 12:06
jmcgoblue, do you run 1600x1200? nvidia is catching up, but there is still a noticeable difference.

jmcgoblue
19th November 2002, 13:49
thop, actually I run at 1024x768 (only 17" monitors...)

I definitely agree that matrox still has the best output, particularly at high resolutions, but for the mainstream user, the gap is closing (assuming that most mainstream users don't do 1600x1200)

Ryu Connor
19th November 2002, 14:03
I definitely agree that matrox still has the best output, particularly at high resolutions

Except when it's banding.

I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a Parhelia. The FAA is broke, the anisotropic filtering is limited to 2-Tap, the analog quality falters when using 3D, it's drivers are quirky, and it's performance inconsistent and sometimes subpar.

An ATI 7500 gives it a run for the money as a better card in terms of FSAA, AF, analog signal quality, drivers, and performance. Not to mention the 7500 ships with the right damn clockspeed out of the box. The 7500 is what? Two years old?

I'm glad I didn't have to pay for this Parhelia out of pocket. Expect the OED to notate the word half-ass with the description of Matrox Parhelia in the next revision.

DGhost
19th November 2002, 14:15
I would most certainly not ever recommend it as a professional product for the reasons Ryu stated...

it has some fairly impressive technologies, but its too flawed of a product to be worth recommending. problems like the FAA and the banding probably won't be truely fixed without a new hardware release. Problems like the anisotropic filtering might be enabled in on this product, but its gonna be at such a performance hit that it won't be worth enabling.

I can't believe that Matrox's solution to it not doing well in the consumer market is to just label it a professional card. It has the feature support to be a professional card, but its just too flawed of a product.

I have to wonder if that is Matrox's solution to everything... "well, this product sucks so lets just sell it to businesses"....

Chief_Inspector
19th November 2002, 17:51
"I have to wonder if that is Matrox's solution to everything... "well, this product sucks so lets just sell it to businesses"...."

Me thinks that anytime you see a card aimed for the business market, it's becuase the card is broken. No one in their right mind sets off from the begining to design a card just for business in mind. You build to specs, it doesn't meet specs, it doesn't pass production diag, so you end up lowering clocks and give a marketing spin and sell it to the poor shleps in business. Anyhoo, Matrox is finished in the 3D market. Unless these boys start building a proper hardware simulation setup, get people that know how to package a chip properly, get experienced asic designers, etc, they are better off closing the entire asic dep't and buy chips from nv or ati. Then again, what kind of experienced asic man would want to work in a company that has 1 P4 system as their chip simulator?

CI

GT98
19th November 2002, 18:29
Originally posted by Chief_Inspector
"I have to wonder if that is Matrox's solution to everything... "well, this product sucks so lets just sell it to businesses"...."

Me thinks that anytime you see a card aimed for the business market, it's becuase the card is broken. No one in their right mind sets off from the begining to design a card just for business in mind. You build to specs, it doesn't meet specs, it doesn't pass production diag, so you end up lowering clocks and give a marketing spin and sell it to the poor shleps in business. Anyhoo, Matrox is finished in the 3D market. Unless these boys start building a proper hardware simulation setup, get people that know how to package a chip properly, get experienced asic designers, etc, they are better off closing the entire asic dep't and buy chips from nv or ati. Then again, what kind of experienced asic man would want to work in a company that has 1 P4 system as their chip simulator?

CI

Whoo Hoo more good news :rolleyes:

UtwigMU
19th November 2002, 18:50
Read this artcile on nVidia's lagging behind:

http://www.tech-report.com/etc/2002q4/geforce-fx/index.x?pg=1

In order to win company needs to be competitive in all segments. It's not parhelia problems that are hurting Matrox it's the G800 fiasco.

Let's take a look at segments:

- Ultra cheap. Due to integrated chipsets, this part will be obsolete soon (ECS hammer and P4 boards with onboard Xabre, nForce2 and intel extreme graphics)

1999 technology, 0~50$ US online prices
TNT2, Ati Rage and Radeon based

Value
This segment brings in most money
2000 technology, 50-100$ price range

2MX, 4MX, Radeon 7500 based, Matrox G450 - not competitive (belongs in previous segment)

Midrange
This segment is also very strong
2001 - 2002 technology, 100-150$ price range
GeForce 3 or 4 Ti 4200, Radeon 9000 and Radeon 8500 based, Matrox G550 - G800 with GeForce 2/3 class performance would fare much better

Performance
2002 technology, 150-300$ price range
GeForce 4 Ti 4400 - 4600 based, Radeon 9500

High end
2002 and future (DX9) technology. 300$ and above price range
GeForce Ti 4600, Radeon 9700, Matrox Parhelia - again not competitive performance wise

Now imagine H02 next year:

High End ($300+)
Parhelia 2???
Radeon 10000 (R350) ???
GeForceFX

Performance 150-300$
Iterations of above cards, Radeon 9700

Midrange 100-150$
Parhelia8x or original, Radeon 9500, GeForce 4 4400-4600

Value 50-100$
GeForce 4 Ti 4200, GeForce FXMX (lame name IMO), Radeon 9000, Matrox G550 (800)

Matrox should cover all the segments with competitive products. Before you say nVidiot thinking scroll back to 1999: High end G400MAX(TNT2 Ultra, GeForce DDR -nV takeover, Fury MAXX, Vodoo 3 3500), Performance G400 32DH(TNT2, Fury, Vodoo 3 3000), Midrange G400 16SH OEM (TNT2 Vanta, Rage Pro - Ati sucked that year as you can see, S3 Savage IIRC), Value G200 (TNT, Vodoo2)), ultra cheap G100, Millenium II (Vodoo 1, other solutions like no9, S3 Virge).

Since Parhelia is not competitive releasing multimedia card and raising price by 50%/retaining current price and lowering Parhelia price (like AIW) is IMO a wise choice:

- cutting Parhelia 128 to 250$ (suplementing with fixed 8x core)
- releasing Parhelia 64 in 150-200$ range (current core with features that cause issues disabled, retain dual DVIs)
- Releasing Parhelia Marvel 64 @ 250-300$ and Marvel 128 @350-400$ (AIW is 432$)
- Cutting Parhelia 256 to 500$ later (january...., suplementing with 8x core)

- Releasing Parhelia 2MAX (256MB) that will pwn or equal GeForceFX and Radeon 10000 in May-Jully High end part comes out first at 350-450$
- Releasing Parhelia 2 256, 128MB at 250-350
- Releasing Parhelia2 64OEM, 128OEM or cutting Parhelia 8x to 150-200 with disabbled features on PCB
- Lowering original Parhelia 64 OEM to 100-150$
- Follow up with Marvel parts

- Clearing the stocks of G450, G550, G400, G200, G100, m3Ds, Milleniums before Longhorn comes by.

That way like 1999 Matrox is teh win.

Stringy
19th November 2002, 19:22
MAny decent and plausable ideas and methods to bring the M back in the good graces of the Computer industry, or really the enthusiast computer industry...

The P isn't all that bad...
it does alot with it's [comparibly] low clock speed...

The only real thing I think M should think long and hard about is how to release the 8x part without losing their shirt on all the overstocked P's...
As some have mentioned a 64mb version attractively priced with Dual DVI [or just DH like G400] would be a smart way to rid the warehouse of all the overstock and still make some money...

Matrox is far from dead...
For a company held privately, and one that has consistantly been tight lipped we have alot of insight into the inner-workings...
We know:
1) Bugs were known and deemed not to have enough impact to require it be fixed before release..
2) features and cards were cut and/or not released even tho they were/are semi ready..
3) massive lay-offs and cuts deep in the company..
4) there is another part in the pipe, and that it has even Taped out....

been interesting to follow,
keep up the good reporting VigilAnt and the MURC...


Craig

Maniac
19th November 2002, 23:12
Sooner or later, the harsh reality will slowly begin to settle in. Matrox simply doesn't have the resources, desire, leadership, or foresight to keep up with giants like ATI and Nvidia. These companies are constantly pushing the envelope with almost revolutionary advances. With games like Stalker set to explode onto the scene, its just a matter of time. Unfortunately either M. will have to settle to be a econo PC oem supplier, or it will be scooped up by a large corporation. Nvidia FX is just the first step...

brokenwallet
20th November 2002, 02:52
If the P really flopped on the PC market, Matrox could always do some modifications and release them to the Mac designer wannabes. They all pay quite a lot for their hardware anyway, and don't usually upgrade video cards every 6 months. Add video capture to the P and Matrox is probably considered king in the content creation world.

Admiral
20th November 2002, 04:18
Originally posted by Stringy

.
.
.
The only real thing I think M should think long and hard about is how to release the 8x part without losing their shirt on all the overstocked P's...
.
.
.
4) there is another part in the pipe, and that it has even Taped out....


Drop prices on the current P, 200-300$ and introduce the revised P at 300-350$.

About the pitou being taped out, nVidia had the GF FX taped out since March (reported by Anandtech) but couldn't build it because the 0.13 process wasn't in place at TSMC. Since the P2 is supposed to be a 0.9 process it might hit on similar production issues.

Seajnky
20th November 2002, 04:46
i have a fealing matrox makes more money than people think. Im guessing they make there money selling to .gov and large corportions. If they buy in bulk, lower distrobution costs. but what do i know.

GT98
20th November 2002, 05:19
Originally posted by Seajnky
i have a fealing matrox makes more money than people think. Im guessing they make there money selling to .gov and large corportions. If they buy in bulk, lower distrobution costs. but what do i know.

Well far as I know the Graphics End of Matrox doesn't make all that much for reasons stated above. What keeps Matrox in the black is its Video busniess, which it owns the market with its RT line of products :D

Chief_Inspector
20th November 2002, 16:58
"Matrox is far from dead... "

Regarding 3D, they are finished, finito, caput. No resources, no proper test equipment, no roadmap, no oems, and a scrooge as an owner, is a recipe for a sinking ship. They can keep on doing 2D cards but that will come to an end. They can go after niche markets but these people buy a card every 10 years and expect to get support for that long.

"For a company held privately, "

Yeah, for a 25 year old company, they did good. Sadly enough, the recent massive layoffs with more to come this month and in February along with a salary and hiring freeze for the past 3 years has killed morale and oddly enough, no head honcho is doing anything about it. Sort a tells you what they think of MGI.

CI

GT98
20th November 2002, 18:16
So Chief_Inspector...what your saying is don't expect anything from Matrox Graphics that will be "worth a damn" and theres no hope of them turning around the boat and its time to jump ship? Pretty gloomy if you ask me :(

Chief_Inspector
20th November 2002, 19:04
Sadly yes that's what I'm saying. I do hope that I'm wrong but I don't see how they can compete on the 3D side without the proper people & equipement. Let's face it, they come out with their new design every few years or so and then make spinoffs from that new design for ~ 2 years. Just like the G200 to G250 and G400 to G450 and G550. While the others are making spinoffs that are somewhat of an improved and faster version of that initial chip, matrox does it backwards. Meanwhile, that initial chip is in most cases flawed and hardware features are disabled for whatever reasons. Rather than tweaking it and improving speed, they come out with a slower and less featured card. What I'd like to know is how all this backward thinking even got the go ahead.

CI

Stringy
20th November 2002, 19:31
Interesting how you damn it as a ship sunk...
one thing I've learned about the PC industry is anything is possible...
Just look at ATi, Many folks wrote them off....

Matrox has alot going for it.... Mind you they are in troubled times, but things aren't all that bleek...
They still have cards, they do have a good base to work from...
And they keep inovating with features such as Triple-Head, FAA, Giga-Color...

They have the People to do it...
they need the leadership and market foresight to put it altogether...

Whether they will be able to put it off, I don't know....
They certainly have gotten pretty far with all these faults, fix a few and this company will shine.... leave the holes and they'll sink

Just opinions...
Craig

Chief_Inspector
20th November 2002, 20:18
Opinions is a good thing:)

"Just look at ATi, Many folks wrote them off.... "

Yes they did write them off. Once they replaced top management, look what happened. 9700 comes out, for once, the drivers are good off the cd, and stocks went up.

"Matrox has alot going for it.... Mind you they are in troubled times, but things aren't all that bleek... "

Well, when people start leaving without finding another job, that sort a tells you how bleek it is in there:)

"They have the People to do it... "

Where they need big help is in the R&D dep't, which they don't have ANY experienced people. Maybe other departments still have a few experienced people left but they don't make chips. Besides, I think their total layoff count is ~ 500 people within the year and another 100 that left. These 600 people couldn't be that
hopeless can they? That's half the company that's gone in 1 year.
No doubt, they need to do a quick 360 if they want to be competitive in 3D. Question is, do they want to do this and are they able to do a quick turnaround? Time will tell me thinks.

How about this one. Each time there is some kind of debate here about Matrox not having anything new, the beta testers were the first ones to jump in giving hints about something new coming soon. Where are they in this thread?

Maggi
21st November 2002, 01:45
Originally posted by Chief_Inspector

...
How about this one. Each time there is some kind of debate here about Matrox not having anything new, the beta testers were the first ones to jump in giving hints about something new coming soon. Where are they in this thread?

Since the big M didn't deny what VigilAnt posted recently, I presume it is pretty save to say that Pitou was taped out ... ;) :p ;)

Feeling better now ?

:D

Ryu Connor
21st November 2002, 05:16
Since the big M didn't deny what VigilAnt posted recently, I presume it is pretty save to say that Pitou was taped out ...

Feeling better now ?

Not really. Whose going to risk buying another broke product (Pitou) when Matrox won't even bother fixing their current broke product (Parhelia)?

Maggi
21st November 2002, 05:33
Valid point, Ryu !

Sorry for misunderstanding, but my question was meant rather rethorical and pointed to CI's direct question about lack of comments coming from the BBz in this thread.

There should be no doubt about the lack of confirmation and acknowledgement from Matrox, how they plan to handle the flawed HW that we users purchased for quite a lot of money.

For that reason, I cannot recommend to purchase any Parhelia card right now and only time will tell if Matrox will ever come back to fullfill their very own claim:

http://www.matrox.com/mga/archive_story/jul2002/parhelia_business.cfm


Acclaimed Quality and Support

Whether it be driver support, support utilities, quality and reliability of
software or hardware, professionals can expect the same leading support that
Matrox has become known for around the globe.

GNEP
21st November 2002, 05:33
What's broken on the Pitou? AFAIK no one has a running board... so how can you tell?

Ryu Connor
21st November 2002, 05:59
Gnep:

Perhaps I should word my statement more like this.

Whose going to risk their professional reputation or they're personal income on a product from a company who refused to either acknowledge certain issues (clock speed) and correct other issues (banding) found in their previous product?

If they can't be bothered to fix and stand behind Parhelia, then when something goes wrong with Pitou what makes you think the story will be any different?

It's a new product and it brings with it to the table a clean slate. It may well be issue free, but a new product doesn't change the company stance. Whose going to spend $400USD again for a product without support?

GNEP
21st November 2002, 06:02
Put like that, then yes, I agree Ryu. Although the "problems" to date with the Parhelia haven't affected me in the slightest - my board is clocked at 220 and the banding has only ever happened in a situation deliberately created to see it (running the PowerDVD playback tests, I only got slight banding in a couple of the tests) - so all round I am pretty happy with my P - but understand others' issues.

Gnep

Ryu Connor
21st November 2002, 06:04
I wish I could say the same.

Wrong clockspeed and both my 21" monitors band quite noticably.

:(

All the more disheartening in that I asked for the card because of Matrox reputation for 2D output and quality.

UberLord
21st November 2002, 06:11
Originally posted by Ryu Connor
All the more disheartening in that I asked for the card because of Matrox reputation for 2D output and quality.

Ditto :(

Pace
21st November 2002, 07:13
Originally posted by Chief_Inspector
Regarding 3D, they are finished, finito, caput. No resources, no proper test equipment, no roadmap, no oems, and a scrooge as an owner, is a recipe for a sinking ship. They can keep on doing 2D cards but that will come to an end. They can go after niche markets but these people buy a card every 10 years and expect to get support for that long.Interesting info, where did you get it from? I've suspected for a long time that they have no proper test equipment.

You're quite right about niche markets - niche markets make no money, they should sell gaming cards instead.

borat
21st November 2002, 07:34
at present matrox have a technically good product, they have already developed a 512bit gpu and 256 bit ddr which can form the basis of a very interesting product line up plus all of the other features that they have which others have mentioned. they are not without technology they just need to implement it better, whether or not they will do that in time only a very few people are able to have a decent guess at.

Chief_Inspector
21st November 2002, 17:22
"Interesting info, where did you get it from?"

Just an educated assumption:)

Pace
22nd November 2002, 05:10
no proper test equipment
an educated assumptionExplain to me how you can assume they have no proper test equipment?

And next time you make an assumption, don't make it look like facts.

Edit: If it's given as a rumour, I'll read it as one, but if it's given as fact from someone I don't know, I'll likely ignore it :) So, give me your rumours ;)

Chief_Inspector
22nd November 2002, 19:16
Luv to explain but rather not. Don't really care if people want to believe me or not so take what I say as fact, assumptions, or with a grain of salt, your choice:)

Anyhoo, 1 of my predictions came true today. Their entire office in Florida closed down. Don't know how many people though but they did have a large team of 3D coders and asic designers. Hmmm, their Toronto office closed down a few weeks ago where they also had a large team of asic designers. More bad news is that there will be more ax cutting this coming friday and this time its in hq.

CI

OasisPlaces
22nd November 2002, 23:32
The chief inspector seems to have a point

Anyhoo, 1 of my predictions came true today. Their entire office in Florida closed down. Don't know how many people though but they did have a large team of 3D coders and asic designers. Hmmm, their Toronto office closed down a few weeks ago where they also had a large team of asic designers. More bad news is that there will be more ax cutting this coming friday and this time its in hq.

They don't seem to be getting thier act together, rather they just
seem to be running around like leatherface.. and chucky and cutting all they can.
Matrox management appears to be functioning like another well known chief inspector... "peeka bow.."
talk about pulling out the wrong teeth..

Some people seem cynical if the chief is stating half baked rumors,
but if they've already closed their r&d centers in toronto, and Florida.. they're more than likely running on less staff than they
had 8 years ago..
Do they have the proper test equipment.. well all parhelias are
populated with 300Mhz memory.. do you see any that can actually
do it?? for all intents it only seems like they've been dropping
the clocks on the cards.. i doubt they invested in the equipment..
and the way things are going there with layoffs.. in a week or
so tech support and engineering will be manned by the owners..

brings a whole new meaining to brank'omatic..

Stringy
23rd November 2002, 06:34
Cuts and layoffs aren't always bad...
Granted getting rid of talented people isn't a good thing, but to change the direction and structure of a company sometimes it is needed...

Closing satilite offices reduces costs by alot..
And just curious, how do you know they are R&D offices related to Video?? or is that just another Assumption??


Is Mcdonalds going down hill because they closed a few stores? are they Dead and doomed?

C'mon... this is business and you don't know why these decisions were made...
if Matrox leaves the Video market so be it, the writting has been on the wall for some time, but don't forget this could all just be a restructuring.. They could be buying all that equipment you say they don't have and centralizing themselves ...

I don't know.. but I wont throw down tarrot cards and try predict it...


Craig

Wombat
23rd November 2002, 09:28
This is nothing like McDonalds. Matrox has already fired over 1/3 of their work force before the last couple rounds, as well as frozen pay for the last couple of years. If McD's did that, yeah, maybe some people would be worried about the companies. Also, M is closing down offices and shutting down divisions. Your analogy would be more correct if McD's decided to close their hamburger plant.


What kind of "change in layoff and structure" do you think M is trying to pull?

3dcgi
23rd November 2002, 12:19
Matrox Florida is graphics, not video.

Chief_Inspector
23rd November 2002, 13:39
"And just curious, how do you know they are R&D offices related to Video?? or is that just another Assumption??"

Like I said, take my posts with a grain of salt if you like. I'm not going to worry if no one believes me. So far, I haven't been wrong but time will tell:)

The Toronto asic employees were for MGI graphics only. The Florida office was for MGI graphics only. This Friday is MGI hq.

"They could be buying all that equipment you say they don't have and centralizing themselves "

Branco has to leave or die if this is going to happen.

"Granted getting rid of talented people isn't a good thing, but to change the direction and structure of a company sometimes it is needed..."

Bet you a beer, they are headed for 2D worstation. I believe they are down to 4 or 5 OGL coders left and with all the asic guys gone, I don't see much 3D coming out of them.

CI

GT98
23rd November 2002, 13:49
anyone want to start a dead pool for MGA?

:( :eek:

Stringy
23rd November 2002, 13:52
Cuts, even deep cuts aren't always death...
but cutting only ASIC and OGL coders would tend to lean towards the deletion of any future 3D from Matrox...

Obviously I'm without the info you are prevy to...
I agree, only time will tell...


Craig

ElDonAntonio
23rd November 2002, 13:54
Sorry chief, but I don't believe a word of it. How would you know all of this info? are you a matrox employee?

thop
23rd November 2002, 14:05
the problem is where is the market for 2D workstation? certainly not OEMs. they put some cheapo ati rage3d 8bm in there, that's enough 2D for any office user. and with no real 3D the CAD guys certainly won't use it.
also with the world slowly switching to LCDs 2D becomes less and less important.

Chief_Inspector
23rd November 2002, 14:09
No I'm not an employee but you were. Is Branco a scrooge or not? Do the asic employees have the proper test equipment or not? Did half the company get laid off within the past year with more to follow or not?

If you don't know, then call whatever friends you have left there and ask.

CI

VigilAnt
23rd November 2002, 14:22
Chief Inspector is correct on all points. Including the comment about Branco.

VigilAnt

MetalCartman
23rd November 2002, 14:25
:( :( :(

thop
23rd November 2002, 14:48
http://jeeptalk.org/crack/smilies/otn/sad/mecry.gif

ElDonAntonio
23rd November 2002, 14:57
It's a sad day, then...

let's hope friday's cuts are not too deep! It would be a big loss to Montreal. It used to be great a few years ago when Matrox would have a big booth at our university career fair and would take resumes like crazy...

Cobos
23rd November 2002, 15:13
So how can Matrox seriously bring out a Parhelia 2 that works if all their 3D people are gone ? Someone that feels like telling me why they even bothered to tape out the P2 if they are simply moving away from 3D into 2D (I especially like this direction if it is true that longhorn will be running Direct3D for basic Windows functions :( :( :(

Indiana
23rd November 2002, 15:50
Originally posted by VigilAnt
Chief Inspector is correct on all points. Including the comment about Branco.

VigilAnt

D'oh! Now that sure sounds VERY bad :(



Originally posted by thop
also with the world slowly switching to LCDs 2D becomes less and less important.

And then don't forget that the Radeon9700 has really decent 2D as well, even some Nvidia card manufacturers have begun to start improving the 2D quality some time ago....

Chief_Inspector
23rd November 2002, 16:23
"Someone that feels like telling me why they even bothered to tape out the P2"

Looking at all the latest revelations, logic tells me Pitou is history even if it was taped out. Who the heck is going to program it:) You never know, it may come out in a few years.

CI

MrGaribaldi
23rd November 2002, 16:27
Is it just me, or does this look a bit like what happened to 3dfx?

Being overrun by nvidia, being late with their new chip, chip not up to the competition, top-end card not being delivered to market due to financial problems (or in this case because they've got too much of the P in stock to bother with the AGP 8x & fixes update)?

Followed with some desperate messures to get some more cash to keep going... (3dfx selling chip plant, Matrox cutting too thin with employess)

I'm hoping Matrox can pull through, as I've been happy with their products in the past, and was looking forward to the refresh/pitou...

Oh, well, at least I haven't stock in this company...
The problem was that I had stocks in 3dfx... :(

MetalCartman
23rd November 2002, 16:35
Originally posted by MrGaribaldi
Oh, well, at least I haven't stock in this company...

Sure, you can't. ;) They're a privately held company...and that also could be one of their problems...:rolleyes:

Kuba2k
23rd November 2002, 16:41
I doesn't sounds good for all Matrox fans :/

UtwigMU
23rd November 2002, 16:47
And intel has about 50% marketshare with their extreme graphics, which are decent for general office work. If intel, SiS or nVidia comes out with decent integrated dualhead chipset, there's no market for Matrox.

Also longhorn will sweep away 2D market since it will rely on pixelshaders to do the work.

:cry: :smoker: :question:

Time to start collecting Matrox cards.

Pace
23rd November 2002, 16:58
Yup, I got a whiff of this just after I laid into CI, it really was quite unbelievable. Most saddened to read his following posts, it's all happening.

I can't sleep at nights :(

thop
23rd November 2002, 17:34
:(

thop
23rd November 2002, 17:38
actually, to quote the fat comic book guy from the simpsons: there is no emoticon for what i'm feeling!

Liquid Snake
23rd November 2002, 21:39
:( :cry:

DentyCracker
23rd November 2002, 21:44
Oh dear. I guess P will be my last matrox card then. If this is true then I hope the competition sort their image quality issues out.

Hati
24th November 2002, 00:40
Bad news indeed.
I am going to upgrade my current system at the end of the year because I will have some money and time left. Was hoping the revision of P would be available then, but after reading Nappe1's
post in this thread

http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37928

it looks like it's not going to happen.
I still hope Matrox can overcome this situation. I am looking forward for some good news to come.
Hati

Xplora
24th November 2002, 06:15
Sounds like the good news can't come. They are concentrating on the company's strengths. 2D quality.

The unfortunate thing is that 2D quality will become irrelevent soon with the next Windows OS. This could be the death rattle for Matrox; concentrating on soon to be obselete characteristics is DUMB.

GT98
24th November 2002, 06:48
Boy talk about a swift kick the nads....I guess this was bound happen since the tail spin that started back after G400Max came out. The introduction of the Parhelia and its subsuqant poor sales was the final straw that broke the camels back. I guess its time to offically give up hope and mourn the loss of MGA with all the faithful around here. :( :(

I guess Ant's Maxtor Users Resource Center isnt too far off :D

Goc
24th November 2002, 07:17
Sad news... :( :( :(

Nappe1
24th November 2002, 07:23
Sorry guys... :(
I truly hope that I am wrong this time, but right now it seems that Matrox has canned the new revision. It seems that they have something coming before christmas, but it's targetted to different market.

only good news I can deliver are that more than one source has delivered following message "Pitou has been definately taped-out", but all the rest is just foggy.

keeping you up to date as well as possible.

GT98
24th November 2002, 10:16
Originally posted by Nappe1
Sorry guys... :(
I truly hope that I am wrong this time, but right now it seems that Matrox has canned the new revision. It seems that they have something coming before christmas, but it's targetted to different market.


I'm guessing it something along the lines of a Parhelia/RT.x combo....basicly a very high end Video editing card?

ganyaik
24th November 2002, 14:08
VigilAnt: Do you know more "good news" about MGI? Don't have to go into details. I'm just looking for a replacement for my aging G200 and I'd like to know whether I should/can buy a Matrox card in near future or not.

VigilAnt
24th November 2002, 15:28
Originally posted by GT98


I'm guessing it something along the lines of a Parhelia/RT.x combo....basicly a very high end Video editing card?
Wrong Matrox division. MGI doesn't make those boards. Look for something more like a high powered G550 with triple head :(

VigilAnt

MetalCartman
24th November 2002, 15:32
*AAARRRGH*
:( :( :(

Pace
24th November 2002, 16:07
Well, that's actually good news for me. I'd love a triple head workstation card - it's that, or G450/550 PCI or MMS :)

However, my workstation card...will not have banding. Still awaiting to see what this basic Parhelia/whatever will contain. Hopefully I'll hear some news Soon&trade; :)

P.

ElDonAntonio
24th November 2002, 16:34
do we get triple headcasting?

crow8k3a
24th November 2002, 18:47
i don't see why matrox thinks they should deviate from the parhelia. It has everything i want, altho it has a few bugs, in my opinion no other card can touch it , including radeon 9700 and prolly the nvidia card coming out. i hope someone can talk some sense into them that people want a 3d card, but also how the power of a professional 2d card and more.

i hope someone has some good news soon.

UtwigMU
24th November 2002, 19:01
high powered G550 would be good if it would have been price performance competitive. For cashflow you need to have competitive cards in all segments.

Like FireGL X1 / 9700 / 9500 / 8500 / 9000 / 7500 / Radeon / Rage

Ati has upper leg not only because of 9700 (launched first to gather press) but because of 9500 vs 4200 or 9000 vs 460.

or Quadros / 4800? / 4600 / 4400 / 4200 / 4MX / 2MX / TNT

now Matrox: Parhelia 256 vs FireGL X1 / Quadro4 or Wildcat, Parhelia128 vs Radeon9700 / Ti 4600 and G550 vs 8500/9000/4200 (same price segments)

ElDonAntonio
24th November 2002, 19:02
You're damn right crow8ka!! I agree 100%. The parhelia revision and P II sound like really good ideas. I hope they'll stick to it!

crow8k3a
24th November 2002, 19:25
thanks :-p, i don't like to compromise 3d for 2d, or vice versa, but w/ matrox right now i can have both, and i'd like to keep it that way for the future :)

brokenwallet
24th November 2002, 21:50
All this 'Matrox is done in 3d' talk made me wonder if Matrox is going to license their reference P and P2 designs to the taiwanese card makers.

Who knows, maybe the current Matrox made Parhelias are like a production test run. And now that the bugs are figured out (fixed), Matrox can license the P 8x to the card makers.

I don't know, just seems too early for Matrox to give up on Parhelia.

Goc
24th November 2002, 23:17
Personaly I would hate seeing Matrox chips on Taiwan boards... 2D quality would definitely go down the drain, and with it what's left of Matrox's reputation... :(

The PIT
24th November 2002, 23:45
Originally posted by Goc
Personaly I would hate seeing Matrox chips on Taiwan boards... 2D quality would definitely go down the drain, and with it what's left of Matrox's reputation... :(

I thought the quality had gone down with the banding issue already. Okay is reportly fixed but only time will tell.

Slougi
25th November 2002, 00:36
Originally posted by The PIT


I thought the quality had gone down with the banding issue already. Okay is reportly fixed but only time will tell.
Since when is it fixed? :confused:

Wombat
25th November 2002, 01:15
It's not "fixed." Matrox's only comment was that it was "normal."

ElDonAntonio
25th November 2002, 02:18
I think he meant it'll be fixed in the hypothetical Parhelia revision.

Slougi
25th November 2002, 02:53
Originally posted by ElDonAntonio
I think he meant it'll be fixed in the hypothetical Parhelia revision.
Oooh I see now :p

GNEP
25th November 2002, 04:29
Well, if they are really pulling out of the 3d market, they would be damn fools not to sell off the designs, tech, and brand name (probably the most valuable asset) to a 3rd party. Gotta retrieve some sort of value for the owners this way...

cjolley
25th November 2002, 06:44
Originally posted by GNEP
Well, if they are really pulling out of the 3d market, they would be damn fools not to sell off the designs, tech, and brand name (probably the most valuable asset) to a 3rd party. Gotta retrieve some sort of value for the owners this way...

NVidia or ATI in-house cards with a premium price? :eek:

chuck

PS or, maybe CA could buy them ;)

RichL
25th November 2002, 06:52
Hmm.
Radeon 9700 Built By Matrox?

P5ycho
25th November 2002, 06:55
Originally posted by RichL
Hmm.
Radeon 9700 Built By Matrox?

as long as matrox writes their own drivers...

GNEP
25th November 2002, 07:05
... And finds a way to bung a 3rd RAMDAC externally or something - I have become rather fond of triplehead...

Nappe1
25th November 2002, 09:51
I know that Matrox is working with Parhelia 2. and some sources indicate it *could* be much closer than it's generally thought to be, but i can't be sure because I have been unable to do "blind cross check" for this one, so take it as grain of salt.

In any case, I am going to buy Parhelia soon. :) VERY Soon :)

GNEP
25th November 2002, 09:58
Arrggggghhhhhhhh! It's the curse of Nappe! :) (j/k)

The PIT
25th November 2002, 10:20
Well some have mentioned thats it's been fixed in the next revision. I missed out of the orginal post. If it isn't fixed and is normal behavour that Matrox no longer have good IQ.

Peter Aragon
25th November 2002, 11:37
No offence, but all this vapourware and people convinced they are telling the truth... it's starting to get a bit boring.

Why not simply admit we don't know shit about Matrox? I'm "starting" to believe some people are only making stories up or starting rumours to provoke some kind of "(un)official" answer from Haig or others from inside the organization.

What do we want? To be updated on hardware and drivers?
Should we keep on bashing, or is there some other constructive way to satisfy both sides? Maybe some constructive words from the inside perhaps? It has been a long time I remember someone from Matrox said interesting stuff over here...

Well, just my 2 cts :confused:

Greebe
25th November 2002, 11:49
Because some of it's very true (and certain others are totally clueless napps;)

Kurt
25th November 2002, 12:28
Originally posted by Peter Aragon
No offence, but all this vapourware and people convinced they are telling the truth... it's starting to get a bit boring.

Why not simply admit we don't know shit about Matrox? I'm "starting" to believe some people are only making stories up or starting rumours to provoke some kind of "(un)official" answer from Haig or others from inside the organization.

What do we want? To be updated on hardware and drivers?
Should we keep on bashing, or is there some other constructive way to satisfy both sides? Maybe some constructive words from the inside perhaps? It has been a long time I remember someone from Matrox said interesting stuff over here...

Well, just my 2 cts :confused:

You're basically right when you mean The Public as "We".

Most of the stuff you can read is public knowledge. Only you get to read it first here.

As far as vaporware is concerned, you get to read it here first as well ;) - and you have ppl who _know_ lurking around MURC giving hints now and then...

What do you _need_ to know about Matrox anyway? ;)

Peter Aragon
25th November 2002, 12:46
Thanks for asking Kurt ;)

I basically have two things on my mind:

- Getting an official answer on the banding issue that degrades the quality of this expensive card, that was bought with the faith I had in Matrox regarding image quality.

- Getting more in-between beta drivers as they come, as some of us really like to twitch and tweak around the system, and really state that the use of such drivers is for your own risk. I remember the days that drivers came out whenever one issue was solved, now you have to wait until a whole list has been fixed.

Sounds fair enough I hope? :cool:

The PIT
25th November 2002, 13:00
Bugger it, must have been dreaming when I saw the post saying the banding had been fixed in the later revisions. Can't find it now anyway and I'm sure it was a post by someone whos been posting for a bit. Must have been the booze I was drinking.

Wombat
25th November 2002, 13:49
Peter, they're not going to give an official answer. Matrox's official policy is that the people with problems are ignorable, and that the issue will go away entirely. The work on a fix for current Parhelias was halted.

TdB
25th November 2002, 14:26
Originally posted by Wombat
Peter, they're not going to give an official answer. Matrox's official policy is that the people with problems are ignorable, and that the issue will go away entirely. The work on a fix for current Parhelias was halted.

:mad:

donīt they realize that this, more than the banding itself, will hurt their reputation badly.

having faulty hardware is one thing, but screwing their costumers is alot worse!
the reason why I bought matrox hardware to begin with, was because I trusted their support. :(

maybe pitou will be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it will take alot more than good hardware to rebuild the costumers trust!

heck, there are still people who boycott matrox because of their g200 opengl fiasco, and that is many years ago, then imagine how long it will take people to forget this.

Peter Aragon
25th November 2002, 14:55
Thanks Wombat for providing a nice example of that what makes me yawn :rolleyes:

I even bet that a lot of sales people at Matrox feel ashamed of their company that there still is no official statement on this banding issue. Imagine having to sell and promote a product knowing it has unsolved issues...:confused:

DentyCracker
25th November 2002, 15:04
Oh dear.

Peter Aragon
25th November 2002, 15:08
DentyCracker
Did I unwillingly start something?:D

Wombat
25th November 2002, 15:19
I even bet that a lot of sales people at Matrox feel ashamed of their company that there still is no official statement on this banding issueThey already did make a statement. They said it was NORMAL.

Edit: I'm trying to back this up, but can't find the quote. I remember it quite well, because my draw dropped to the floor when Haig posted it. I've checked both the MURC forums and the Matrox forums, and that statement seems to be gone.

Tempest
25th November 2002, 15:57
Originally posted by Wombat
They already did make a statement. They said it was NORMAL.

Edit: I'm trying to back this up, but can't find the quote. I remember it quite well, because my draw dropped to the floor when Haig posted it. I've checked both the MURC forums and the Matrox forums, and that statement seems to be gone.
It's there, Haig's post (post #4): http://forum.matrox.com/mgaforum/Forum6/HTML/001299-2.html

Novdid
25th November 2002, 16:14
This hurts. Whoever at M that's running this show better get his/her head out of his/her arse soon and admit that there indeed is a bug, or they will never see a penny coming from me again.

GNEP
25th November 2002, 16:18
Is there anyone left to run this particular show? Or has the last out turned off the lights?

GT98
25th November 2002, 17:32
Originally posted by TDB

heck, there are still people who boycott matrox because of their g200 opengl fiasco, and that is many years ago, then imagine how long it will take people to forget this.

To tell you the truth I bet MGA is just about done....just wait till you see what the future holds....you'll be sick :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :mad: :mad: :( :(

thop
25th November 2002, 17:37
I hope someone else picks up their ball and runs FAST with it :)

crow8k3a
25th November 2002, 19:36
Seems like alot of u have given up hope on just rumours, no matter how much inside info they have, they are still just rumours until posted by matrox. i have had the millenium, mystique220,g200,g400max, and parhelia, not one time owning those did i ever wish tohave another competitors card. hopefully this will continue to the future.

K6-III
25th November 2002, 20:06
I will wait and hope....

I have been EXTREMELY HAPPY with Parhelia....and Pitou is the only card beyond it worth my time and $$$

3dfx
26th November 2002, 01:57
I agree with K6 and if I had the choice again I would still go for a Parhelia :) We just need some new info :cool:

GT98
26th November 2002, 04:46
Originally posted by crow8k3a
Seems like alot of u have given up hope on just rumours, no matter how much inside info they have, they are still just rumours until posted by matrox. i have had the millenium, mystique220,g200,g400max, and parhelia, not one time owning those did i ever wish tohave another competitors card. hopefully this will continue to the future.

Trust me MGA is more ****ed up then you can Imagine right now...you'll see

TdB
26th November 2002, 04:50
donīt get me wrong, I will eat my words the second matrox, actually do something about this bug, I just think it is kinda suspicious that it hasnīt been fixed yet.
like they are not prioritizing the bugfix high enough!

TdB
26th November 2002, 04:52
Originally posted by GT98


Trust me MGA is more ****ed up then you can Imagine right now...you'll see

let me guess: the next parhelia driver is labelled "final". :eek:

nah! seriuosly, do you think MGA is dead and gone?

Sasq
26th November 2002, 04:54
you meaning FUBAR there GT98?

ganyaik
26th November 2002, 04:54
This is what I wanted to ask. How come if they're f*cked up that they release drivers every now and then?

VigilAnt
26th November 2002, 04:54
Originally posted by TDB
donīt get me wrong, I will eat my words the second matrox, actually do something about this bug, I just think it is kinda suspicious that it hasnīt been fixed yet.
like they are not prioritizing the bugfix high enough!
There is no fix for this. It's a hardware fault. Only fix is to put a different graphics card in your machine.

VigilAnt

ganyaik
26th November 2002, 04:55
Even for Gx00 based cards...

ganyaik
26th November 2002, 04:55
VigilAnt: Nice timing... :)

Peter Aragon
26th November 2002, 05:00
Vigilant:
Would that be a different Parhelia card?

3dfx
26th November 2002, 05:03
Well finally an answer and I suppose we cant blame Matrox as they did say that the FAA 16x method would have problems in a lot of games. So we are stuck with the card :(

TdB
26th November 2002, 05:03
Originally posted by VigilAnt

There is no fix for this. It's a hardware fault. Only fix is to put a different graphics card in your machine.

VigilAnt

if that is the case then the right thing to do is to offer us a fixed parhelia or a refund, instead of saying that, "they havnīt heard anything new yet".

or at the very least pull the bugged parhelia back from the market and sell out of the revised ones. instead of pretending that they are bugfree.

Ryu Connor
26th November 2002, 05:18
the right thing to do

Yes, it would be the right thing to do. Though, it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

3dfx
26th November 2002, 05:26
Originally posted by TDB


if that is the case then the right thing to do is to offer us a fixed parhelia or a refund, instead of saying that, "they havnīt heard anything new yet".

or at the very least pull the bugged parhelia back from the market and sell out of the revised ones. instead of pretending that they are bugfree.

I would have to agree with you there, I believe that if Matrox are to keep their fanbase and customers then they will either have to find a fix or RMA the cards :)

TdB
26th November 2002, 05:27
Originally posted by ganyaik
This is what I wanted to ask. How come if they're f*cked up that they release drivers every now and then?

maybe they are just polishing the beta-revisions they already have in the pipeline.
the BBZ are several revisions ahead of us, so they could probably release a few more drivers, without starting on new driver revisions.

ganyaik
26th November 2002, 05:34
I see. OK, thanx for the info.
3dfx: I wonder if they wanna keep their fan base at all. This "banding is normal" behaviour is now what I would call "we wanna keep our customer base" attitude. I hope I'm wrong with it.

thop
26th November 2002, 05:36
If Matrox replaces every P out there (or at least from everyone who notices it and complains about it) this will hurt them a lot i believe, and only brake their neck faster.

However i'm a bit dissapointed that Matrox doesn't say us upfront(?) in the face how the things are, but instead we have to get the information through the backdoor.
I guess Haig isn't to blame, he probably was strictly forbidden to tell.

TdB
26th November 2002, 05:45
they could still sell the current parhelia, if they said: "only works with DVI-D monitors" on the box.
or as a kind of low-end MMS card for 2d-only workstations.

but the fact that they, continuingly and well-knowingly, still sells the bugged parhelia, with out stating the cards limitations, is just wrong! :mad:
is it even legal? :eek:

Tempest
26th November 2002, 06:08
Originally posted by thop
If Matrox replaces every P out there (or at least from everyone who notices it and complains about it) this will hurt them a lot i believe, and only brake their neck faster.Yeah and remember that the rumour is that they've got plenty of Parhelias in stock... Which also means that they're all ridden with the same bug(s).

Evildead666
26th November 2002, 06:24
Is there a way out for M?
With a large stock of 'broken' P's, worth a lot of cash, a client-base which is VERY unsure about its next purchase, what can they do?

Cut as many corners as possible.

They may be just trying to keep the company afloat, but if they really needed money, couldn't they float Matrox in the Stock Market, and get lots of cash from selling shares.
Then again, who in their right mind today would buy Matrox shares.....the risk is way too high.

P2 or not P2?, that is the question.....

Peter Aragon
26th November 2002, 06:43
About the legal part, wasn't there a case of someone getting epileptic seisures with the Parhelia caused by the banding? That may have made them more cautioned about bringing out a statement. Think about the possibility of lawsuits, especially over there in the US. People over there should be sued for suing unnecessarily:mad:

GNEP
26th November 2002, 06:50
Yeah but then nVidia and/or its card partners would have been sued years ago for their crappy 2d quality causing eye strain... :rolleyes:

GT98
26th November 2002, 07:13
Originally posted by Sasq
you meaning FUBAR there GT98?

I think they've been FUBAR'ed since the G400MAX lanuch :mad:

Pace
26th November 2002, 07:13
Are we talking about FAA or banding?

AFAIK, FAA will cause problems, this was stated to you at the time of purchase. I don't know if drivers can fix this (I'm guessing the answer to this is known, please fill me in :)).

Banding is a problem, which was not stated, which Matrox *are* ignoring, and will continue to do so.

GT98
26th November 2002, 07:19
Originally posted by Evildead666

P2 or not P2?, that is the question.....

VigilAnt has already reported that the P2 has been canned and if you look at this post and others theres been HUGE cut backs in the MGA workforce...so much so that they are just as good as dead in my option..Wouldnt surpize me to see them Pull out of the Graphics areana and just stay with what market they own...the Video editing Division

Faramir1966
26th November 2002, 08:01
The second revision of the P1 has been canned......
The P2 or Pitou is not......

Xplora
26th November 2002, 08:05
VigilAnt have anything new to bring us? or just worried about the massive spike in bandwidth that "official rumours" on MURC will send Ant broke?

Wombat
26th November 2002, 08:49
Faramir, check your facts.

GT98
26th November 2002, 08:50
Originally posted by Faramir1966
The second revision of the P1 has been canned......
The P2 or Pitou is not......


Of course it's just your opinion, but it's not correct. The revision of parhelia is done. They can release it any time, but it won't matter much if they kill off the people who write the software and support it. They seem to be more intent on releasing another low dollar card right now, and Pitou is officially canned.

VigilAnt


There you go....I personally hold out no hope that Matrox will make anything that personally suites my needs in a GFX card.

3dfx
26th November 2002, 09:42
Well at this stage I think I will stick with my Parhelia :p as I like the card generally and I dont see much better out there for my needs :) I'm looking into the Geforce FX but it is very expensive and to be honest I think that the Parhelia card performs well at higher resolutions like 1600 - 1200 and therefore negating FAA 16x :p

Peter Aragon
26th November 2002, 10:36
At this point I don't trust the "facts" anymore, but then again, I can imagine it's kinda fun and amusing making things up and see others take it as facts... :D

Faramir1966
26th November 2002, 14:48
@Wombat
Well.....thats how i undarstand what Vigilant said somewhere in this thread.......
But maybe i got it all wrong.... :?

Kurt
26th November 2002, 14:59
Originally posted by GT98



There you go....I personally hold out no hope that Matrox will make anything that personally suites my needs in a GFX card.

you can never say never. if they get enough cash, they might as well get P-II from where it is. 0.13 ĩm is not ready anyway....so 0.09 ĩm is not very likely either before some time...they might just turn things around with a half-decent product...waddayaknow? it's a one-in-a-million chance but it might just work... ;)

Greebe
26th November 2002, 15:15
let me test this out firsthand...

never

Hey check it out, works for me! ;)

ElDonAntonio
26th November 2002, 17:47
gneuh

rugger
26th November 2002, 19:30
I see no problems with the word Never

It isn't like matrox have tried particularly hard over the last few years to make the customer feel valued. So even if Matrox does release Pitoo, I don't think I want it. They have shown themselves to be sleazy and immoral whenever it thinks it can walk away with people's money.

DGhost
26th November 2002, 20:23
i honestly can't really find a reason to buy another Matrox product right now. Yeah, the image quality is better (and when using dual monitors i get overlays on both), but since i'm limited to 1280x1024 and am not running dual monitors....

i can get better customer support from companies that acctually give a damn.... as well as getting a faster product... the benefits of Matrox just do not justify the negatives right now...

Ant
27th November 2002, 05:01
I'm afraid the situation looks very bleak. Another round of layoffs, another 100 employees I hear and the closure of their Boca Raton facility, for those that don't know that is their main R&D arm. Combine that with the canning of Parhelia II and the question must now be when do Matrox Graphics close their doors? :(

The PIT
27th November 2002, 05:20
No R&D. Rest in peace Matrox.
It's people like Haig that I feel sorry for.
It also means continued blurry graphics.

GT98
27th November 2002, 05:20
Originally posted by Ant
I'm afraid the situation looks very bleak. Another round of layoffs, another 100 employees I hear and the closure of their Boca Raton facility, for those that don't know that is their main R&D arm. Combine that with the canning of Parhelia II and the question must now be when do Matrox Graphics close their doors? :(

Well have any plans for the Future of the website then? Even though Matrox's Video Division doesnt look like its going to go anywhere any time soon unless Nvidia or ATI deside to go after them on that.

3dfx
27th November 2002, 05:23
So what is being said is basically that Matrox has come to an end in the Gaming and 3d card market?:( Oh dammit and I was looking forward to future updates etc for Parhelia :)

GNEP
27th November 2002, 05:42
GT - see Ant's sig :)

thop
27th November 2002, 05:52
either what GNEP said or we can just go on with what we're doing. talk about nice quality graphics cards (which will hard to get but anyway) and politics in the soap box :D
now about the frontpage, i dont know.

ganyaik
27th November 2002, 05:58
:(

Reckless
27th November 2002, 06:05
Bye Matrox, sniff :(

3dfx
27th November 2002, 06:10
Hold on :cool: one second ...hehe Matrox are not gone yet and until they are ppl, well they EXIST! .. :) So lets stop making presumtions until we know all of the facts. We dont know the exact financial position of Matrox and until we do then I think we should just sit tight and enjoy Matrox's quality :D

GT98
27th November 2002, 06:18
Originally posted by 3dfx
Hold on :cool: one second ...hehe Matrox are not gone yet and until they are ppl, well they EXIST! .. :) So lets stop making presumtions until we know all of the facts. We dont know the exact financial position of Matrox and until we do then I think we should just sit tight and enjoy Matrox's quality :D

So much to learn young Gr****opper....You can't make something out of nothing...and thats whats just about left of Matrox Graphics.

Dogbert
27th November 2002, 06:20
Nothing short of a miracle will do now.

GNEP
27th November 2002, 06:26
To quote Dad's Army: "We're all Doomed! Doomed I Say"

Oh, hold on a minute; we're talking about a company that has been producing a component for computer systems for which there are many and various substitutes... problem? What problem? :p

Le_Bob
27th November 2002, 06:43
I wonder, why did Matrox release P if PII was three months from being taped out?


Wouldn't it had been better to wait 3 months and release PII instead of releasing a bad P?

UtwigMU
27th November 2002, 06:43
Check netcraft.

Matrox is switching to linux from solaris,

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.matrox.com

ganyaik
27th November 2002, 06:51
I just don't know why they released P, did a fixed version of it and taped out P2 if they knew that they're gonna close? Was it a quick decision or what? Any ideas?
They might have been able to make some money coming back from development investments by releasing the fixed P or the P2. Am I totally wrong with this?

Cobos
27th November 2002, 06:52
Well that should fit nicely with a company cutting costs not one going completely under... Though the change might be for the video divisions benefit :(

Cobos

3dfx
27th November 2002, 06:55
So it really is that bad then ??:confused:

Kurt
27th November 2002, 07:31
a Radeon 9700 pro core with Matrox board making quality and drivers...who knows? they might have to bastardize their production to survive...(ATi is still leagues better than nvidia as far as 2D output is concerned...)

DentyCracker
27th November 2002, 07:48
All I need now is AMD to go bust. Then a lot of the fun will have been taken out of building my own machines, I might as well buy a prebuilt machine then. UGH!!
/me is very disappointed in the stupidity of some people.

OTOH If this is true then I might be able to get a cheap Parhelia next year sometime.

Ant
27th November 2002, 07:51
Lets hope Matrox had no R&D projects with AMD at their Boca facility that they cancelled along with closing it down. :speechl:

GT98
27th November 2002, 07:55
Originally posted by Kurt
a Radeon 9700 pro core with Matrox board making quality and drivers...who knows? they might have to bastardize their production to survive...(ATi is still leagues better than nvidia as far as 2D output is concerned...)

Remember people..Matrox as a whole is Privately owned Company and doesnt have to answer to investors. The Owners can do whatever they want with the company and its alot easier just to kill off the Graphics end if its not making any money and contrate on the markets that make you money like the Video editing end of it, since its their money going into their pockets.

The Parhelia was their last/best shot at getting back into the 3D end of the market, but several factors hindered it from becoming successful and the increased performance that the compitition is offering hinders it. The Parhelia in its current form would have been more accecepted by the market if it came out last fall and not this past spring. If that happened we might not even be talking about MGI going bye bye in the next couple months. :(

ganyaik
27th November 2002, 07:55
What did they R&D at Boca? Do you know?
Closing everything down with 3 unreleased cards somehow doesn't make sense for me(fixed P, P2, beefed up G550(as rumoured previously here)).

thop
27th November 2002, 08:05
Originally posted by ganyaik
beefed up G550
maybe we will finally witness the arrival of the G800 :D

3dfx
27th November 2002, 08:07
If Matrox are going down it would be nice to see them going out with a bang like 3dfx and remembered as a great company :) unfortunately they have a lot of pissed off customers :(

GT98
27th November 2002, 08:08
Originally posted by thop

maybe we will finally witness the arrival of the G800 :D

Well I'll guess we'll have a postmortom on Matrox Graphics in the next year or so...just like 3Dfx...find out where and what the hell went wrong after the G400

3dfx
27th November 2002, 08:13
Even though I dont want Matrox to go down, I would like to hear all the Gory detail as it werE! :p

Tempest
27th November 2002, 08:37
This is all my random ramblings so consider this as deranged thoughts and not fact:

What some of us seem to forget is that everything takes time, so a graphics company never has just one product in development. They certainly didn't start planning the P2 only after Parhelia was released.

So... Maybe P2 has been designed for 0.09 tech from the beginning.

The Parhelia (at least done the way Matrox did it) already pushes the limits of its tech. It runs quite hot. And because the P2 is probably even more complicated, it is probably not possible in 0.15um, maybe not even in 0.13um. And even if it was, as has been discussed before, changing from one tech to another isn't just an "okay, it will be ready by tomorrow" thing.

0.09um technology will not be available in a while. For Matrox to skip the Parhelia and release the P2, they would have had to wait MUCH longer.

So maybe their glorious management had first decided to skip the Parhelia (for example, because of heat problems) and move directly to Pitou, but then realized that they need a product (or maybe fab processes developed slower than they expected, or they simply needed the money), changed their minds and put people to resurrect the original Parhelia, preferably as fast as possible?

[GDI]Raptor
27th November 2002, 10:22
I think Matrox could have pushed more out of their Parhelia chip, but the lack of ASCI engineers probably explains this!

Look at R300, and what ATi does at a 0.15micron process, AMD also did it (Thunderbird -> Palimino)

Imagine Parhelia @300-325Mhz core.....

Yannick
27th November 2002, 12:30
Originally posted by GT98



There you go....I personally hold out no hope that Matrox will make anything that personally suites my needs in a GFX card.

We'll have to be cautious about using the "GFX" abbreviation from now on. People might understand that it's an abbreviation for that -eForce- thingie.

ElDonAntonio
27th November 2002, 15:45
Originally posted by [GDI]Raptor
I think Matrox could have pushed more out of their Parhelia chip, but the lack of ASCI engineers probably explains this!

Look at R300, and what ATi does at a 0.15micron process, AMD also did it (Thunderbird -> Palimino)

Imagine Parhelia @300-325Mhz core.....


Damn right, ASCII engineers ROCK!!! :D

Chief_Inspector
27th November 2002, 17:38
I was kinda hoping this wasn't going to come true but I heard that 7 conference rooms are reserved for Friday. Most of them are for the asic people. Me hopes this is just a harmless get together to talk about their Xmas party.

CI

RanDob
27th November 2002, 18:18
What did they R&D at Boca? Do you know?

Some of the chips we had at least a part of: Rainbow Runner, Mystique, G100, G450, Parhelia & TBA

Drivers: OS/2 for Millennium thru G450, Matrox Video Tools & MMS for Windows NT & 2000, G-Series & Parhelia OpenGL ICDs

I'm sure that's not a complete list.

Greebe
27th November 2002, 18:22
Heya Randy :)

Reckless
27th November 2002, 18:48
Originally posted by RanDob


Some of the chips we had at least a part of: Rainbow Runner, Mystique, G100, G450, Parhelia & TBA

Drivers: OS/2 for Millennium thru G450, Matrox Video Tools & MMS for Windows NT & 2000, G-Series & Parhelia OpenGL ICDs

I'm sure that's not a complete list. You're obviously connected with M at the site so GOOD LUCK with yor job (present or future) :rolleyes:

ElDonAntonio
27th November 2002, 19:08
I think there are some exaggerations going on here guys, espescially among the doom sayers (like GT98).
I spoke to a guy who left Matrox in January 2001 (to go back to studies), and just before he left, he had just earned a 65% raise plus a bonus equalling 50% of his annual salary. So the "no raise nor bonuses since 3 years" story goes out the window.

Seems like there are some disgruntled employees (just like in any other company) that are spreading false doom rumors. I am curious to know whether the rumour that Boca Raton facility closing down is true or not. I remain sceptic.

ElDonAntonio
27th November 2002, 19:11
Originally posted by RanDob


Some of the chips we had at least a part of: Rainbow Runner, Mystique, G100, G450, Parhelia & TBA

Drivers: OS/2 for Millennium thru G450, Matrox Video Tools & MMS for Windows NT & 2000, G-Series & Parhelia OpenGL ICDs

I'm sure that's not a complete list.


what's TBA?