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Dogbert
3rd November 2002, 08:21
Fellow Americanos :D

Since circumcision is quite popular in the U.S., what do you think about it Socially, Relgiously, Medically etc. ? Were you . . . ? Would you do it to your son(s) ?

Let the flames (err... I mean debate) begin !

rugger
3rd November 2002, 08:38
Originally posted by Dogbert
Fellow Americanos :D

Since circumcision is quite popular in the U.S., what do you think about it Socially, Relgiously, Medically etc. ? Were you . . . ? Would you do it to your son(s) ?

Let the flames (err... I mean debate) begin !

Woohoo, Im first at the flame pedistal!! :D

I am not, and I wouldn't do it to any son I will have! (ouch)

About the only argument I can make FOR circumcision is as a help against some STD's. (but even that arguement is pretty weak, as it isn't very well researched, and really doesn't offer that much more protection)

The strongest argument I can make AGAINST circumcision is that I really don't have to moral authority to circumcise any sons I have. There really isn't any medical need, so doing it would only be to fill my social or relgious desire, which would be very selfish.

So in this debate, I am taking the AGAINST side. (just thinking about it makes me wince, and I think "people actually do that")

Novdid
3rd November 2002, 08:46
I'm not against it as it is cleaner amongst other things, bla bla bla. But really; is there anything to discuss??? It's not something like abortion or the deathpenalty, this is something that nobody has any reason to be against. I'm not saying that you should do it, but if you want to it's nothing wrong with that.

That's all from me.

KRSESQ
3rd November 2002, 09:47
I recall hearing of a study done a few years ago which concluded that the wives of circumsized men have a lower instance of cervical cancer than the wives of uncircumsized men. I'll try to find a link.

Kevin

Umfriend
3rd November 2002, 10:19
I am, my son is not and won't be if he doesn't choses to.

KRSESQ (how do u pronounce that anyway?): This I've heard too. Thx if u do find the link. Guess it also depends on how a non-circumsized fella treats its mr. johnson.

Umf

edit: Guess at the end of the day, I don't give a shit

edit 2: Doggie, u dod raise the question, but didn't give your answer. I guess u aren't are are a verhement opponent of it? pls confirm :D

Admiral
3rd November 2002, 10:20
I'm not against it and I respect the religious and medical (practical) reasons of people who do it but since I'm not bound by religion, nor is the temperature high enough all year to justify the medical purpose, it's not something I would do to my future son(s).

KRSESQ
3rd November 2002, 10:56
Here is the only link I could find without subscribing to the New England Journal of Medicine.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Cancer-cervNEJM.html

It's actually a rebuttal of the study. The upshot is that the statistical difference is insignificant and a higher risk factor for both penile and cervical cancer is tobacco use.

I tend to think that the objections to male circumcision are as overblown as the benefits. Do what you think is best.

Kevin

p.s. ESQ stands for Esquire but I may have to drop it as it usually is reserved for reference to lawyers (formerly referred to a landed country gentleman authorized to bear arms).

Novdid
3rd November 2002, 12:59
Couldn't agree more!!!

Drizzt
3rd November 2002, 13:02
I think that a circumcised boy would soffer a few psicological problems as this would make him "different" from others, and that is not that good.
This not apply obviously to Hebrew wich are all circumcised, so no problems for their sons. And their religious belief is so strong that I think that none of their children would psicologically suffer from it.


Apart from this, I don't see problem to be circumcised if there is the medical need to do it. After all, I'm going to be soon circumcised for medical needing, so... :)


(Dogbert, maybe you are asking this because you are confronting with your future wife about yours sons? :D )

Wombat
3rd November 2002, 13:32
You mean uncircumsized, Drizzt? Most males here are in the US are (snipped), I think.

ZokesPro
3rd November 2002, 13:32
I wonder what Liz would reply? :D

mutz
3rd November 2002, 14:10
Abraham is an old Jewish guy who is a yarn merchant. He lives next door to the biggest anti-Semite in town.

One day the anti-Semite calls up Abraham and says, "Hey Jew!!!... I need a piece of orange yarn. The length must be from the tip of your nose to the tip of your penis, and I want it delivered tomorrow."

Abe says, "OK."

The next morning the Anti-Semite is awakened at 7 a.m. by the
sound of running engines. He runs outside to see a row trucks
lined up one after the other, dumping truckful after truckful of
orange yarn in his front yard. Soon his yard is a 5-feet deep
sea in orange yarn. Abe then presents a bill for $18,000 to the anti-Semite.

The guy starts yelling and screaming at Abe. "What is this,
Jew? This is not what I asked for! I told you I needed a piece of yarn from the end of your nose to the tip of your penis. Look at this place! What do you have to say for yourself?"

Straightfaced, Abe replies "I'm very careful when I deal with
people like you, that's why I got a few witnesses here with me. I may be off by a few miles, so I gave you a 2% discount;
but...the tip of my penis was left in Poland after my circumcision!"

Admiral
3rd November 2002, 14:17
I wonder what Liz would reply? :D

depends if she had a circumcised man ? :D

Wonder what people think of removing the clit from young girls in certain cultures ?
Rare and outdated ways, but it still happens.

edit:


Straightfaced, Abe replies "I'm very careful when I deal with
people like you, that's why I got a few witnesses here with me. I may be off by a few miles, so I gave you a 2% discount;
but...the tip of my penis was left in Poland after my circumcision!"


LMAO :D

ZokesPro
3rd November 2002, 14:35
You guys know NOTHING about circumcision. It's obvious enough to tell who has been and who hasn't. :rolleyes:

Fact:[list=1]
If you ARE, it's cleaner and more hygienic.
If you ARE, it does NOT reduce sensitivity when having sex.
If you were to compare it to getting a clitoris cut off then you'd have to cut the penis off for it to be a FAIR comparison. [/list=1]

I don't obviously want my kid to get circumsized unless he has to but as far as I know it's not different than being born with green eyes than someone born with brown eyes. IT"S JUST SKIN!!!

Now, I'm not different nor do I have any psychological problems but I HAD to get cirscumsized. It happened when I was around 2 or 3 DAYS old. I don't remember it. And as far as my sex life? Well.... Let's just say I haven't heard any complaints, just compliments. ;)

And as for the reason why, well according to my parents I had no choice. It was done for medical reasons. And there you go.

Now I hope your all a little more educated on this subject.

Novdid
3rd November 2002, 14:46
I am circumsized, and I'm happy that I am. And I agree with Zokes on his three points.

There is no negative points about being circumsized. None what so ever.

Admiral
3rd November 2002, 14:48
Originally posted by ZokesPro
You guys know NOTHING about circumcision. It's obvious enough to tell who has been and who hasn't. :rolleyes:

Fact:[list=1]
If you ARE, it's cleaner and more hygienic.
If you ARE, it does NOT reduce sensitivity when having sex.
If you were to compare it to getting a clitoris cut off then you'd have to cut the penis off for it to be a FAIR comparison. [/list=1]

I don't obviously want my kid to get circumsized unless he has to but as far as I know it's not different than being born with green eyes than someone born with brown eyes. IT"S JUST SKIN!!!

Now, I'm not different nor do I have any psychological problems but I HAD to get cirscumsized. It happened when I was around 2 or 3 DAYS old. I don't remember it. And as far as my sex life? Well.... Let's just say I haven't heard any complaints, just compliments. ;)

And as for the reason why, well according to my parents I had no choice. It was done for medical reasons. And there you go.

Now I hope your all a little more educated on this subject.


WOW there !
Getting circumcised is just cut foreskin, I don't compare it to removing the clit. I just wanted to point there are still some rather "barbaric" people that do it and point in a (faild) subtle way that circumcision is, well, not that big of a deal (compared to that).
Personally I was this close to getting circumcised for medical reasons when I was 10, got more foreskin than the average user, but my father was strongly opposed.
I just have to be more strict on the hygine without it done. Will I want to get circumcised when it will be my call ?... nah, I feel fine as I am.

ZokesPro
3rd November 2002, 15:04
Originally posted by Admiral
WOW there !
Getting circumcised is just cut foreskin, I don't compare it to removing the clit. I just wanted to point there are still some rather "barbaric" people that do it and point in a (faild) subtle way that circumcision is, well, not that big of a deal (compared to that).


I understand the point your making and I do believe that it would be a fairly traumatic experience for a kid to get it done if he was any older than 2 or 3 years of age. And if I had to get it done when I was 10 (like in your case), then there would be no way in hell that a doctor is going to cut my male equipement just cause I had too much foreskin!!!

I wasn't upset towards you, just at the level of education of most on this subject.

Admiral
3rd November 2002, 15:25
Originally posted by ZokesPro


I understand the point your making and I do believe that it would be a fairly traumatic experience for a kid to get it done if he was any older than 2 or 3 years of age. And if I had to get it done when I was 10 (like in your case), then there would be no way in hell that a doctor is going to cut my male equipement just cause I had too much foreskin!!!

I wasn't upset towards you, just at the level of education of most on this subject.

Actually I was rather calm about it, was with my mom when the doctor looked at it and set an appointment to do it, my father just made sure I didn't get to honor it.
Than again I was rather calm when I was a bit younger and had to get innoculated for something, till I saw the needle. My father had to catch me running around the hospital :D

One of my father's friends got circumcised when he was young because his grandfather insisted (was more in touch with tradition than the father). And they got it rather bad, he had some (a little) foreskin left that sticked over the head when it healed.

Gurm
3rd November 2002, 16:07
Ok, I have a FEW thoughts on the matter:

1. I _was_ circumcised.
2. Logan _was_ as well.

Now... reasons why?

The biggest, and MOST important reason was... and here's where we get into "what does Gurm believe?"... that G-d told us to. Period. End of story. I'm Jewish, and the circumcision represents the agreement we have with G-d. We lose the foreskin, he blesses us and our children forever. Not a bad deal, says I.

Secondly - it _IS_ an established fact that ON THE AVERAGE, circumcised boys have less than HALF of the juvenile UTI's of uncircumcised boys.

The "cervical cancer" arguments are spurious in the extreme. However, for the sake of cleanliness, prevention of infection, etc... it's superior.

In uncircumcised boys, the foreskin is in fact ATTACHED to the glans penis - in some cases it has to be surgically detached when the boy reaches an age where he can obtain an erection.

Sadly, this attachment does not promote cleanliness - in some cases (I don't have a percentage handy) it is IMPOSSIBLE to clean out the secretions (shmegmata) which accumulate, which can lead to UTI's, and other infections.

So what's the downside? Some people CLAIM less sensitivity. However, judging by the average sexual performance of the American male (which, according to the American female is something short of lengthy enough) OVERsensitivity is a bigger concern on the average. ;)

- Gurm

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 00:13
Umfriend,

See Gurms post. As a Jewish Israeli, I'm kind of bound Religiously, historicly and socially so I'm the (very) wrong person to answer the question. This is why I didn't vote my own poll as well.

I was circumcised and if and when I'll have a son(s) they'll be circumcised as well. (No problem with Alice here, she's kind of more religious than I am. Actually I'm the "bad influence" ;)).

I've read a lot about people saying they lost sensitivity etc. I don't and can't argue with that. But I can say and some doctors agree that circumcision has a very different effect when done on a baby/child/adult. The younger the age, the better the body adjusts to the new situation.

On a side note, there are a few people here (Israel) who are against it.
Many of them, in their ignorance, call this custom "Paganic" :laugh:

Wombat
4th November 2002, 00:45
Many of them, in their ignorance, call this custom "Paganic" How is this ignorant? It's yet another Judeo-Christian practice inherited from earlier cultures.

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 00:47
The circumcision wasn't inherited from othe cultures. It was a symbolic sign of monotheism as supposed to paganism at that time.

rugger
4th November 2002, 00:52
ONYATTHDIARFF :D

(Oh no, yet another thread that has degenerated into a religious flame-fest)

It seems to be happening a lot :D

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 00:55
Bring out the BBQ sauce ! :D

Wombat
4th November 2002, 01:06
The circumcision wasn't inherited from othe cultures. It was a symbolic sign of monotheism as supposed to paganism at that time.It wasn't? Funny, it's a common sacrificial ritual in many ancient cultures. If you're looking for documentation, check the Egyptians. It's depicted in pyramid paintings over 5,000 years ago. There's evidence of it occuring in other cultures earlier than that.

rugger
4th November 2002, 01:07
I'm staying out of this one.

Arguing about religion is pointless. Everybody has already chosen their sides, regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Nobody is going to listen to anybody elses points, regardless of their validity.

The only thing that can come out of a religious argument is frustration and resentment, on all sides. There are no winners, except those who choose not to fight :D

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 01:31
Wombat,

True, but not exactly - http://www.cirp.org/library/history/

Wombat
4th November 2002, 01:47
Umm, what "not exactly?" Your link concurs with me, although it omits some things. Here's the first thing Google popped up.http://www.circlist.com/rites/egypt.html

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 01:54
Yes, circumcision we here before Abraham was born.
Not exactly because abraham did it a little differently:



The Jews adopted circumcision as a religious ritual and preserved this prehistoric practice into modern times. The circumcision of Abraham removed only the very tip that extended beyond the glans penis.

Umfriend
4th November 2002, 02:11
Which does not contradict Wombat's statement that it was inherited from others, it could have been inhereited but just adjusted somewhat.
Happens often with religious and cultural things (I'll be buying a christmas tree soon..)
Umf

Dogbert
4th November 2002, 02:19
Speaking of inheritment, "Our" god was actually the Canaanite God "El". If you read the bible, you'll find that Yitro knew Moses's god. I've read through a book of ME mythology and the whole creation of the people of Israel seems like a part of a godly Soap Opera.

"El" was a part of the Canaanite pantheon which included other gods as well. "El" got jealous that one of the godesses (his girlfriend :puzzled: ) invited Baal to sit witht hem on mt. Siphon and got El pretty pissed off about it. And a revenge, El found this guy Abraham, made him believe ONLY in him and helped him become a nation that'll oblitrate all the believers of the other gods. Now, when a god has no believers... :cool:
Another interesting thing were two other gods called "Shemesh" and "Yam" - gods of the sun and the sea. In Hebrew, those are the words for sun (shemesh) and sea (yam).

Strahd
4th November 2002, 06:17
Originally posted by rugger


The strongest argument I can make AGAINST circumcision is that I really don't have to moral authority to circumcise any sons I have. There really isn't any medical need, so doing it would only be to fill my social or relgious desire, which would be very selfish.

So in this debate, I am taking the AGAINST side. (just thinking about it makes me wince, and I think "people actually do that")


Would you pierce your daughters ears then?



And yes I would circumsize my son(s) if and when I have any.

Sasq
4th November 2002, 06:21
I'm a "have", and unless there is any medical reason my son(s) will be have's.

As for piercing of my daughters ears, my wife's ears aren't even pierced.

rugger
4th November 2002, 06:35
Originally posted by Strahd



Would you pierce your daughters ears then?



And yes I would circumsize my son(s) if and when I have any.

Most likely, for the following reasons

1) She will probably want it done to be like other kids. If not, there really isn't a good reason to force her to have earings. The difference here is that the decision is NOT forced onto her by my desires.
2) Piercing an ear is not really permanant, like say, circumsision.

Gurm
4th November 2002, 06:36
Like I said before, it was an easy choice in the end. I _did_ agonize over it. The anti-circumcision advocates are vocal and persuasive.

In the end it was very simple though. If you believe that there's a special deal between you and G-d, then there are a very few things that he COMMANDED that have never been countermanded. Many of the laws of Kosher, as well as a lot of the esoteric bits of the law have been countermanded or obviated over the years. But there are a few things that G-d has asked of us that aren't optional. *shrug*

- Gurm

GNEP
4th November 2002, 06:39
I'm not, and don't have any problems!

Basically, I am more than happy to let you all decide for your own families yourselves...

Joel
4th November 2002, 07:17
I am. My son is. My brother is. My father was. My grandfathers were. And as far as I know their fathers were. The majority of the circumcisions done in the US are usually done within the first couple of days of life so no one I know of ever remembers it ever occuring.

I also worked in the medical field for several years and I do know that a person who is uncircumcised does have to be more particular about their hygiene than one who isn't. Also don't ever let that foreskin get pulled back and left that way for any length of time. It will swell up like a ballon.

Joel

CHHAS
4th November 2002, 08:33
I'm not, but I really don't care one way or the other, it doesn't hurt being there (unless there is a problem in which case it should be removed) and it doesn't matter if it is.

For now I'm just as happy not having anyone getting any kind of clippers anywhere near my penis thank you :)

Electric Amish
4th November 2002, 08:38
Originally posted by Novdid
I am circumsized, and I'm happy that I am. And I agree with Zokes on his three points.

There is no negative points about being circumsized. None what so ever.

I think I agree with this.


amish

Dr Mordrid
4th November 2002, 08:51
Originally posted by KRSESQ
I recall hearing of a study done a few years ago which concluded that the wives of circumsized men have a lower instance of cervical cancer than the wives of uncircumsized men. I'll try to find a link.
Kevin

This is true, as is the fact that men can get serious infections in the foreskin unless they are very fastidious about their hygiene.

There is also a lower incidence of HIV infection in men who are circumcised. This has been born out by studies in Africa among tribes who practice circumcision and those who do not. Those who are circumcised showed less than half the rate of infection as those who were not; 11% vs. 26% in highly affected areas.

Much of this is due to the foreskins high proportion of Langerhans cells. Langerhans cells are primary targets for HIV virii. Another problem is that small abrasions of the inside of the foreskin, which are very commonly produced during intercourse, are excellent entry points for not only HIV but other STD pathogens.

This protection mainly applies to vaginal sex. Anal sex throws the protective effects of circumcision out the window because of the higher likelihood of producing penile (and anal) abrasions.

Dr. Mordrid

Admiral
4th November 2002, 09:43
This protection mainly applies to vaginal sex. Anal sex throws the protective effects of circumcision out the window because of the higher likelihood of producing penile (and anal) abrasions.

you seem to have forgoten oral :p

KvHagedorn
4th November 2002, 09:51
This is the most disgusting thread I have seen in all my years at MURC.. :speechl:

ZokesPro
4th November 2002, 09:57
Originally posted by KvHagedorn
This is the most disgusting thread I have seen in all my years at MURC.. :speechl:

Afraid to talk about your penis Kv? :D

Wombat
4th November 2002, 10:06
you seem to have forgoten oral No, not really. Saliva isn't a hospitable place for HIV. It's very, very difficult to infect someone from your mouth.

Umfriend
4th November 2002, 12:01
In the end it was very simple though. If you believe that there's a special deal between you and G-d, then there are a very few things that he COMMANDED that have never been countermanded. Many of the laws of Kosher, as well as a lot of the esoteric bits of the law have been countermanded or obviated over the years.

OK, I am ignorant, but could you pls tell me how, when many of the laws were countermanded? (Talmud?)
Umf

ALBPM
4th November 2002, 12:15
And I thought it wasn't Kosher unless it was all BEEF!!! :eek:

OK, just shut up Paul

Admiral
4th November 2002, 12:18
Originally posted by Wombat
No, not really. Saliva isn't a hospitable place for HIV. It's very, very difficult to infect someone from your mouth.

Was thinking more the other way around and from a woman's perspective.
Also wanted to be sarcastic @Doc M, anal was something he could've left out :D

Umfriend
4th November 2002, 12:49
Another episode in the anals of MURC...
Umf

edit: or is "anals" not English?.....

Dr Mordrid
4th November 2002, 12:55
Umfriend: annals (annals = archives)....not anals :rolleyes:

Also: leaving out the close relationship between anal sex, HIV and other STD infections would have bee an incomplete answer.


Originally posted by Wombat
No, not really. Saliva isn't a hospitable place for HIV. It's very, very difficult to infect someone from your mouth.

Absolutely correct and proven in practice by the fact that HIV infection from lesbian to lesbian is almost unheard of absent other sexual practices involving the anal canal.

Dr. Mordrid

Wombat
4th November 2002, 13:22
For a while the main anti-AIDs medical research was in trying to replicate these properties of saliva, but they weren't having very much luck. The cell-receptor approach seems to be having more luck lately though.

UtwigMU
4th November 2002, 14:14
I remember this Bosnian guy from the army who said: Us muslims have cabrio pensus.

IMO It's no big deal wether you are circumcized or not, but I'd leave that dilema to my kids if I was in such position.

mutz
4th November 2002, 14:37
...nobody asked me if I wanted to be circumcised or not, but later on a number of girls asked me if I was Jewish or not. I told them no, I'm American, which got me some puzzled looks...

dave m
4th November 2002, 15:01
interesting debate

Warning : Personal information here

My dad was, because that was what they did in 1930's Britain.

I wasn't because my parent's felt it was unnessary in a hygienic society.

My twin brother had no problems with his, mine was a problem, because it wouldn't, well, peel back. A friendly specialist doctor forced it back when I was around 7 years old maybe less. I couldn't pass water without excruiating pain for a week after.

Since then I have rather protective of it :)

But back to the topic, if you wash inside it, surely it's not a problem?

Dave

Edit: no comment on circumscision for cultural or religious reasons was implied anywhere here

Gurm
4th November 2002, 15:34
Dave,

That's just the thing - as your case demonstrates you CAN'T wash inside it in some cases. Now what if you hadn't seen the specialist until much later on? Let's say you got a bona-fide erection all by your lonesome upon turning the ripe old age of whatever it was when you got your first erection...

OUCH. It would tear. Causing BIG problems. :(

- Gurm

Liquid_Memory
4th November 2002, 16:25
Here is the biblical references to circumcision.

Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband [thou art], because of the circumcision.

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Acts 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

Romans 2:25 For {circumcision} verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy {circumcision} is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?

Romans 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

There is a total of 32 in all, but most of them are pretty neutral to circumcision, none of the scriptures really state that you have to become circumcized.

I'll post the rest if you want me to.

Gurm
4th November 2002, 16:35
Yeah, but then again you're quoting the new testament - hardly brimming over with Jewish thought. ;)

- Gurm

Joel
4th November 2002, 16:47
I'll post the rest if you want me to.

Actually I would apreciate it if you didn't take anymore scriptures out of context.

Joel

Liquid_Memory
4th November 2002, 16:52
This is true, there isn't much reference in the old testament. Now if I elaborate and go to circumcise then it is mostly in the old testament and not in the new.

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Joshua 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

Joshua 5:4 And this [is] the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, [that were] males, [even] all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

Luke 1:59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Jessterw
4th November 2002, 17:09
I think I remember this debate back in... when was it... junior high? In the boy's locker room I believe. :D

To get to the point, I'm not and I rather like it that way. Made masturbation as a teen rather enjoyable and it seems to make my wife very pleased. Never had any problems with it at all... I keep it clean (as I would even if I was) and I always make sure it is not in the path of the ominous zipper :p

I'm not even going to get into the religious debate over this, it's pointless and I really don't think God gives a shit. On a side note, quoting religious scriptures just shows a lack of ability to think on your own.

Umfriend
4th November 2002, 22:56
LM, how about quotes on anal penetration, would you pls? Both testaments if it isn't too much work.
Umf

Paddy
4th November 2002, 22:58
Hmmm… I am not, but I have seen a few being done over the past few years.

To be honest, what ever the argued benefit, I think there is an issue of informed consent here.

How many non-circumcised men are forced to be circumcised due to medical reasons? It is not the majority by any means. I accept that there is a reduced incidence of balanitis, but does that give us the right to ‘mutilate’ our kids?

Here in Leicester there is a big influx of Dutch Somalians (don’t ask!) and it is routine to ask if the females are circumcised. I know that you can’t compare the two on a hygiene level. However both are done in the name of socio-religious beliefs.

From a medical point of view, if we are born with it, then I believe there is a reason for it. I mean, you wouldn’t ask your newborn to have an appendectomy, would you? Evolution has had a long time to sort out what’s good and what’s not.

I think it’s selfish to impose your beliefs on others. I was brought up in a ‘Christian’ environment, but I was always given the choice whether to accept it or not. Where’s the choice in having a part of your body ‘augmented’ when you are too young to object.

Lizzard[MPE]
4th November 2002, 23:01
Originally posted by ZokesPro
I wonder what Liz would reply? :D



well.. lol. if u must know ive been with one and without one. if i were to have a child one day i would not get them circumsized.

SitFlyer
5th November 2002, 02:03
Originally posted by Lizzard[MPE]

well.. lol. if u must know ive been with one and without one........


Hey, does that mean, you've only been with 2? :) :)

ZokesPro
5th November 2002, 02:19
Originally posted by Lizzard[MPE]
well.. lol. if u must know ive been with one and without one. if i were to have a child one day i would not get them circumsized.

I was just curious as to your view on this. I'm always interested to hear what girls think of this. :)

bambam
5th November 2002, 10:52
why go hardtop when you can have a convertible? Sure it's a little maintenace, but so are the best cars. Besides, chicks dig convertibles :) :) :)

Novdid
5th November 2002, 12:11
bambam, that was one of the most twisted comparisons ever made, and a looooong shot aswell!!!

I LIKE IT!:p

DentyCracker
5th November 2002, 12:54
ROFL
I am whole. I won't have my sons snipped (if I have anything to do with it) If they want to get snipped later that is their perogative. If it were up to me no one would have piercings of any sort (or tatoos). But that is just me

dave m
5th November 2002, 14:13
Since you mention it Denty, what do people think about seeing toddlers with pierced ears and earrings?

Dave

Liquid_Memory
5th November 2002, 20:07
Its turning back to the days of sodom and gomorrah.

Wombat
6th November 2002, 01:17
Yeaaaah! Vegas baby! VE-GAS!!!

Paddy
6th November 2002, 01:34
I am against piercings in kids for the same reason as above

Fat Tone
6th November 2002, 01:47
What about masturbation? Doesn't it change that experience somewhat?

Tomasz
6th November 2002, 01:53
Circumcision is a tough issue to argue because it evokes many individual biases based on one’s own experiences, or lack of, with the act. Those who have been circumsized bring up medical studies, religious arguments, etc. in order to rationalize that decision and try to assert that it was the superior one. On the other hand, those who are not circumsized bring up different medical studies, different religious arguments, etc. in order to demonstrate that their choice was superior. How do we tell which side is right?…hey, I’m not omniscient, but I can tell you what I think and then each person can make up his or her own mind.

Personally, I ascribe to the anti-circumcision line of thought for reasons echoed in the previous paragraph as well as those stated previously by Paddy.

Through years of studying chemistry and biology, I have come to realize how little we, as humans, know of the human body and consequently I feel very uneasy when people, with their limited knowledge, try to fix something “that ain’t broke.” Circumcision, especially when argued as creating a more hygienic, HIV resistant, non-cervical cancer causing uber-penis, seems to me as nothing more than man’s attempt to improve on what was already meticulously designed and tested by nature. If our foreskins had been such a horrible affliction through the years, especially in earlier, less hygienic times, we would then expect them to be rooted out by natural selection, if we are to believe Darwin. Clearly, this has not happened.

Another objection I have to the practice is that it involves a quite horrific procedure, which until recently, was done without anesthesia. In fact, just recently in 1997, for some reason doctors studied the obvious question of whether circumcision was painful. They found that “Circumcision causes newborns a lot of pain, and they should always receive anesthesia for it. Suffering caused by the procedure was so clear in a new study of anesthetics that researchers stopped enrollment early because they decided it was unethical to circumcise any more newborns without an anesthetic.” Now to complicate matters further, anesthesiology is not exactly an exact science and could have dangerous side effects, especially when applied to a newborn. This all leads me to ask myself a question: Would I agree to such a procedure being carried out on myself? HELL NO! Perhaps if this trait was acquired in a Lamarckian style, I would mind it less, but Weismann's amputation experiments showed us that evolution does not work this way. Thus, since I would not wish this procedure carried out on myself, it follows that I would not want the procedure carried out on my child for whom I would have to make the decision.

Now to analyze the seeming benefits of circumcision:

*It is more hygienic
Perhaps, but cleaning is not exactly so much tougher a chore (just one extra step:))…

*Prevents urinary tract infections (especially early in life)
This seems to be true, but the majority of these cases are not extremely serious. Besides, ear infections are much more common anyways at that stage in life and no one is calling on us to excise our ears…yet:).

*Lowers incidence of HIV infection
As is the case with many studies concerning HIV, this has not been proven to my satisfaction. “Based on the studies published to date, recommending routine circumcision as a prophylactic measure to prevent HIV infection in Africa, or elsewhere, is scientifically unfounded.” (Int J STD & AIDS, 10:8-16, 1999). HIV infection mechanisms are still quite debatable, but if we are to assume that an increase in abrasions would foster a higher incidence of infection, then I would propose that the more taut skin on a circumcised penis would be more prone to such abrasions. In either case, as long as you are mutually faithful with your significant other, you should in theory have little to worry about STDs or AIDS.

*Decreases risk of penile cancer
Sorry, I do not know much about this one. I’m guessing that this cancer would probably be linked to some sort of viral infection… which is probably blamed on an intact foreskin…for some reason…

*Lowers cervical cancer in partners
Similar to the point above, this is probably also linked to a viral infection…how an intact foreskin helps a virus I do not know…

Let’s close this off with a quasi-statistic:
The US, certain Muslim countries, and Israel have quite high circumcision rates. Most of Europe and South America have quite low circumcision rates. Both groups seem to do all right.
Both approaches seem to work, but I choose to be a minimalist and choose the option that requires one to do nothing (if nothing is broken…).

Sorry for the long post… but this has been on my mind lately as I have been trying to (calmly and logically) convince a certain significant other about the correctness:classic: of my position.

All my best

Paddy
6th November 2002, 01:55
What piercings??? I guess it would...

Paddy
6th November 2002, 02:11
Nice post Tomasz.

The only way that i can rationalise the decreased incidence of cervical cancer would be through exposure to HPV (human pappiloma virus) as you surmised. Genital warts are far more prevalent on foreskin tissue than on the glans for some reason. But the strain of virii that causes warts does not cause cancer...

It is a horrific operation, by far the worst that i've ever seen.
I remember mentioning to the theater nurse that i cant imagine this being done without an anasthetic...

GNEP
6th November 2002, 03:01
I think that it is a little dangerous to use the HIV argument - after all, anything that encourages people to be less careful is v. bad.

"Hey! I don't need a condom - you can't get HIV from me 'cos I'm circumcised!"

Never underestimate the use that scientific studies can be out to in the hands of the stupid masses :)

Ant
6th November 2002, 03:27
Hey if God had meant us to be circumcised she wouldn't have given us a foreskin in the first place! :)

Admiral
6th November 2002, 05:07
Originally posted by Ant
Hey if God had meant us to be circumcised she wouldn't have given us a foreskin in the first place! :)

Since when is God a he or she ?

GNEP
6th November 2002, 05:11
NB Ant=British=no sarcasm at all. None. :)

Ant
6th November 2002, 05:36
It is a fact that God is a she, have you not seen Dogma?


Originally posted by Admiral


Since when is God a he or she ?

Admiral
6th November 2002, 05:53
Originally posted by Ant
It is a fact that God is a she, have you not seen Dogma?



Somehow I don't portray Alanis Morissette as God :D

Paddy
6th November 2002, 07:56
I thought it was quite good actually! :D

Lizzard[MPE]
6th November 2002, 08:00
Originally posted by Ant
It is a fact that God is a she, have you not seen Dogma?



hahahahah.


woah.. *sigh* early morning 'lol'...wasnt expecting that

SpiralDragon
6th November 2002, 08:03
loved that movie.... no opinion on the subject although i am circumcised but was to young when it hapened... :D.... any way i cant tell the diferance......


edit: no i dont mean it that way :mad:

ZokesPro
6th November 2002, 08:11
Originally posted by Ant
It is a fact that God is a she, have you not seen Dogma?



Well then! There's finally a rational explination to the reason why my life is headed the way it is! :D

Admiral
6th November 2002, 08:27
Originally posted by Paddy [MU]
I thought it was quite good actually! :D

Loved it too, especially those two guys that also got in Afroman's "Because I got high" clip :D
Also saw a movie where they were taking "royalty fees" from a comic book artist that got mixed with a lesbian chick and that screwed his relation with his friend ...
Anyway, that movie was a blast, but I can't remember the name :(

Ant
6th November 2002, 09:39
You mean Jay and Silent Bob ?

That film was Chasing Amy I believe.

Jammrock
6th November 2002, 09:41
If Alanis Morissette was God, she would have given herself a singing voice.

Jammrock

ZokesPro
6th November 2002, 09:49
If God was a girl, shouldn't she be HELLA hot?

Electric Amish
6th November 2002, 09:49
Liz-

Why did you prefer one over the other, if I may ask....

amish

Admiral
6th November 2002, 09:59
Originally posted by Ant
You mean Jay and Silent Bob ?

That film was Chasing Amy I believe.

Yup, that seems to be the one ;)

ZokesPro
6th November 2002, 10:09
Originally posted by Lizzard[MPE]
well.. lol. if u must know ive been with one and without one. if i were to have a child one day i would not get them circumsized.


Originally posted by Electric Amish
Liz-

Why did you prefer one over the other, if I may ask....

amish

I hate to speak for another but I don't think she specified which one she prefers. I think she only mentioned what she wanted for her future child. Unless I understood what she said wrong.

:ermm:

MadScot
6th November 2002, 13:04
It took a lot of balls to post in this thread. And this is only the tip of the issue. So lets not dick around with this, because someone inevitibly gets shafted.

:D

ZokesPro
6th November 2002, 13:06
LOL:D

It's the sausage thread!

SitFlyer
6th November 2002, 13:17
Originally posted by ZokesPro
If God was a girl, shouldn't she be HELLA hot?

If the Devil was a girl, she would definitely be HELLA hot. :D

ZokesPro
6th November 2002, 13:19
Ah I see, then if God is a girl the she should be heavenly beautiful! Hehe, I get it! :D

High_Jumbllama
6th November 2002, 13:20
Originally posted by ZokesPro
If God was a girl, shouldn't she be HELLA hot?

She definitely wouldn't droop.

Admiral
6th November 2002, 13:23
Originally posted by SitFlyer


If the Devil was a girl, she would definitely be HELLA hot. :D

Following Ant's dogma... Bedazzled anyone ? :D
(not the greatest of movies ...)

Jessterw
7th November 2002, 06:30
God's not a woman... he's George Burns. :p