Question: How would your country react if

[Dogbert]

How would your country react if a citizen was kidnapped by a terrorist organisation and held in a known country / region ?

Two years ago, the Hizbollah kidnapped an Israeli citizen - Elchanan Tannenbaum and are holding him somewhere in Lebanon. The red cross nor U.N officials were allowed to visit or see him.

Personally I'd hold captive the whole of south Lebanon by threatening to turn the whole region into a flaming hell unless Elchanan Tannenbaum and the 3 kidnapped soldiers were to be returned within the next 24 hours.

Maybe (propably) my government is a bunch of chickens. Maybe I'm a murderous fascist extremist. You be the judge, what do you think your or your country's reaction to such a thing would be ?

[GNEP]

A non-violent one.

Terry Waite?

Ideally, I would like to see, in this order:

1) Persuasion
2) More persuasion
3) (whilst 1 & 2 are going on) Intelligence gathering
4) Political pressure applied in the right places
5) If all else fails, and only if, with the agreement of as many parties as possible to do confidentially, a SAS leap-in-leap-out type of mission, with minimal casualties
6) A close eye on those involved - therapy/help for the victims and continued surveillance (with interpol involvement) of the offenders.

[RichL]

Negotiation, negotiation, more negotiation.
If that fails, and if its known exactly where the citizens are being held, then some gents from the Special Air Service would pay them a visit in the small wee hours of the morning.

[thop]

first talk to them. that probably wont help, so send some special elite force to get this guy out.
but from what i know most gouvernments officialy don't negotiate with terrorists and let the guy rather die.

[GNEP]

Originally posted by thop
but from what i know most gouvernments officialy don't negotiate with terrorists and let the guy rather die.

That's why I said "persuasion" instead of "negotiation" - negotiation in my mind implies a bit of giving as well as taking.

gnep

[The PIT]

Ah just the drop the Nuclear bomb on them afterwards.

[SpiralDragon]

ok first of i agree that he should be released.


but the problem posed is this.. he is aleged to be a spy..... secondly wen the israilies "detaned" several lebanese in the alkhiam prison.. nothing ... and i mean nothing ... could be don to realse them untill the israilis retreeted (and left them there for to be descoverd by the lebanese)

you call it imprisonment of potencial terorists but that is far from the truth and you know it.... it was terorisem on the part of an ocupying army that was kidnaping people at random..... the same aplies to the syrian army... unfortunatly hizbulah is a difrent case... they are not an ocupying army.. they are the last local militia that still remains armed after the lebanese civil war.... do they have the right to kidnap people .. NO.... do they have the right to continue carying their weapons around ... NO.... do the israilis have the right to atack lebanon AGAIN.... NO...... even if one of their people is held kaptive in lebanon ... the answer is still NO...... why? simply look at the tacktics used by the israilies during their ocupation of lebanon and then compare it with that of the Lebanese resistance (which is not ristricted to hizboulah or muslims, as a mater of fact the people who DID start the resistans where christians) and you will come to the same conclusion i have... the israili ocupiying army was not that much better off than hizboula.....

so now we lebanese stand at this one down, three to go (one being the israilies, and the other two being the syrians and ALL other militant factions that still remain here)

but the point is that to aatck lebanon because one Israili, who is acused of being a spy, is being held in lebanon is a terible idea... hell if lebanon where to do the same for every man and woman whom where held by the isreailies we would be the ocupying army.... but then again we dont have gun boats, f-16s, apachees and heavy tanks.......

you want to talk peace you are welcome.... but remeber to want peace both sides have to be willing to make more consetions than they should... and unfortunatly i do not see that happening....


ultimatly what i am trying to say is this
you want to see hizboulah out... great so do most of the lebanese... but if you think the lebanes are going to be happy to see the israilies ataking again you are wrong... your "resque mission" will do the folowing

tighten syrian control over lebanon and give hizboula and other such militants more longetivity...... the old bomb the Sh*t out of them tactic is not a long term solution and will never be a long term solution... if you are not willing to see that than i am sory to say that terorism will thrive on till the next few melenia..... and here is the big example.... the US went in to afganistan to rout out Al-Qaaeda... they sucseeded..... and now al-qaaeda is regrouping acoring to the world media....


do you understand me?

do you understand that i am not trying to bash you?

do you understand that i want hisboula and the syrians out?

do you understand that doing it by force will only make things wors? dogbert; you only need to look in your own backyard just to see that i am right....

...
peace, and please dont take my harsh remarks as a personal atack on you.... i hapen to think that you are a swell guy... though we are each on the other side of the boarder from eachother.... my the day come when such talk would not be nessesary..... and we could talk of great thungs face to face...... but that wont hapen by force.......

[Dr Mordrid]

Originally posted by GNEP
A non-violent one.

Terry Waite?

Ideally, I would like to see, in this order:

1) Persuasion
2) More persuasion
3) (whilst 1 & 2 are going on) Intelligence gathering
4) Political pressure applied in the right places
5) If all else fails, and only if, with the agreement of as many parties as possible to do confidentially, a SAS leap-in-leap-out type of mission, with minimal casualties
6) A close eye on those involved - therapy/help for the victims and continued surveillance (with interpol involvement) of the offenders.

Non-violence in the presence of active and ongoing violence aimed at you by others is a good definiton for suicide. No thanks.

1 & 2: persuasion only works if the other side wants to talk. No signs of that yet.

Face facts: these people have stated that their battle with the "infidel" (read: western civilization) is to the end of time and to the death.

Just how do you propose negotiating that?

3: Intelligence gathering is fine as long as you can do it on the ground as well as in the air. Infiltration of these organizations is very diffictult if not impossible because they are so tight-knit and suspicious. Many Intel officers have stated the USSR was a cake walk compared to them.

4: Political pressure is fine as long as the target of same gives a damn about their future and that of their children. Societies that openly encourage martydom don't fall into that catagory.

5. Special Forces missions work fine given #3, but once again we are not capable of infiltration into these organizations for the aforementioned reasons.

6. Circular logic looping back & forth to #'s 3 and 5 without end.

This is the same neo-leftist appeasement BS that always gets the world into trouble with extremists and despots. It was that way in 1939 and it still applies now.

Dr. Mordrid

[cjolley]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid

This is the same neo-leftist appeasement BS that always gets the world into trouble with extremists and despots. It was that way in 1939 and it still applies now.

I see a lot about what not to do.
What would you do?
chuck

PS What's a neo-leftist?

[SpiralDragon]

i would like to add this you are claiming that about 4 israilies are being held in lebanon... and you are willing to use force to free them... most likely with your advanced weponry you may be able to acheave that ... but what about the tens of lebanese that are STILL being held in isreail... most if hom are NOT "terosists" but many of whom did suport the resistance movement....

[The PIT]

Originally posted by SpiralDragon
but many of whom did suport the resistance movement....

Well that puts them in the nasty guy status for me. If you support terrorists acts your no better than the terrorist.

[RichL]

Doc, there are actually terrorist organisations in the world apart from Al-Quida.


And the 1939 policy of appeasement? It bought us a few precious months to build up our forces in time for the inevitable.

Which is why we today arent either speaking German or just getting used to not being part of the Soviet Union.

[SpiralDragon]

Originally posted by The PIT


Well that puts them in the nasty guy status for me. If you support terrorists acts your no better than the terrorist.

you seem to lack the ability to tell the difrence between a risistance movment (not ristricted to hizbolah) and a terorist organization..... would you call the french resistance a terorist movment?

[The PIT]

A terrorist is someone who plants a bomb and doesn't give a shit who it kills even if it happens to be the people he/she claims to be fighting for.
French resistance targeted German solders or people that helped the Germans. A subtle differance is it not.
I think you lack the ability to see the differance.

[KRSESQ]

A legitimate Resistance Movement does not target civilians. Only military targets. Even Che Gueverra knew that.

Any movement that deliberately targets unarmed civilians specifically to terrorize the populace (short of a universally declared Total War like WWII) is a terrorist movement and is void of credibility.

If Hezbolla or al Qaida has declared total war on the "infidels," then it is in the interests of our own survival to respond in kind. The fact that we did our best to avoid civilian casualties in our last two major conflicts shows uncommon restraint on our part.

If we were as blood-thirsty as we are accused of being, as blood-thirsty as our terrorist enemies have demonstrated themselves to be, there would be damned few folks left alive anywhere in the Middle East today.

Kevin