Europe and US relations

[GT98]

I posted this before and it was ganked, but I would like to repost to see if we can have a nice Adult Discussion about it. Its a Very long read though.

http://www.ceip.org/files/Publications/2002-06-02-PolicyReview.asp?p=11&from=pubdate

[GNEP]

And I commented on it before: good read. NB. it is written by an American who lives in Europe (and who is not some random blogger)

[Dr Mordrid]

1. Americans are realists while Europeans are diving headlong into another one of their denial modes, which usually ends up in another war.

2. Whoever said "no one shoots the saloonkeeper" didn't see Desperado

Silliness aside who says the European saloonkeeper hasn't been shot? Anyone besides us Americans remember all the bombings & shootings at airports, restaurants and other public places in Europe during the last 30 years?

Sheesh....does someone have to crash something in to the Eiffle Tower or Big Ben before it sinks in?

Nobodys safe because sooner or later these idiots will find a reason to hate you too, and you're a lot closer target.

Summary: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" has been proven deadly accurate in Europe for the last 100 years. It looks like their at it again

Dr. Mordrid

[RichL]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
1. Americans are realists while Europeans are diving headlong into another one of their denial modes, which usually ends up in another war.

Erm, that could very easily be seen the other way around from the European point of view!
America seems spoiling for a war, whatever the cost, while the Europeans are trying to take the view of 'Can we work out a way around this situation without a huge loss of human life?'

Silliness aside who says the European saloonkeeper hasn't been shot? Anyone besides us Americans remember all the bombings & shootings at airports, restaurants and other public places in Europe during the last 30 years?

Strangely enough we do. Thats why the majority of Europeans have little desire to get too heavily involved with the particular form of terrorist who thinks nothing of suicide bombing innocent civillians.
Especially not when, to put it very bluntly, America is making all the noises and drawing attention to the target painted on its bum.
"American and British Imperialist agression" seems to be a phrase popular with ME terrorists. The rest of Europe is probably quite content to let the pair of us be the biggest juiciest targets around

Summary: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" has been proven deadly accurate in Europe for the last 100 years. It looks like their at it again

What you have to take into account is the effects of two major wars on the European psyche.
Millions of men died or were severly wounded in uniform, and if that wasnt bad enough, thousands of civillians were killed too. Both sides bombed each others cities, sunk each others merchant ships, starved each others populations.
And when it was over, the exhausted victors returned home to pay the price. Our once global empires crumbled due to lack of funds and lack of drive.
After ten years of bloodbath, we've pretty much had our fill of large scale warfare. We are not the military powers we used to be, and we'd get very jittery if one of us suddenly started back down that road. We no longer have the capability or the desire to rattle sabres or engage in gunboat diplomacy.

[Ant]

Who exactly are these "Europeans" that you Yanks keep talking about?

[Dr Mordrid]

Ant:

France: who are more interested in if their oil leases in Iraq will survive a new government than if someone else gets hurt by their inaction.

Germany: who knows what there problem is, other than perhaps that they've been selling Iraq some outlawed things under the table.

Russia: a bit more helpful than France, but still depending on their oil leases and are worried about if their portion of Iraq's foreign debt will be paid by a new government.

RichL:

Psyche, schmyke....what you guys are doing is ruminating on it to the point of intellectual and glandular paralysis

Perhaps the problem is that you guys need some of that "calcium in the backbone" GWB was talking about yesterday.

Dr. Mordrid

[RedRed]

I read this the first time round (along with some stuff Joel kindely sent me)

Its an excellent article.

RichL;
Good points....

Britian once (not very long ago) had an empire which was truly global in scale...

The world wars accelerated the rate of decay of this empire form perhaps 100 years to a matter of a couple of decades. Prior to the world wars, perhaps, England (and to an extent France & Italy) DID have the same ideas of 'gunboat diplomacy' as was discussed in the article. The thing is that without the gunboat, there is only the diplomacy...

All Eruope has lost its original millitary strength. The cost (Material capaity, infrastructure, the flowers of two generations) of rebuilding after these destructive events above taught us a very useful lesson.

We dont want to fight another one, especially if its on our turf.

There was the best will in the world in creating the british empire. We believed that we were improving the lot of the subjects, and we made a bit on the side. The Romans thought the same, I am sure. Britian has no need of empire anymore. Just as the Italians or the greeks before them. We simply dont have the drive for it anymore. We dont have the resources either.

America (and this is NO attack on the country) is in the early stages of its empiric history. For the best will in the world, it is projecting its power. Just a few years ago, it was reflecting the Soviet Union and its influence. Every action by one was reflected in the other like two sumo wresslers in a grip. The soviet threat (was it real or a reaction to a percieved American one? a question for another day...) is gone. Like a Sumo having strained for so long, it is still driving forward.

Regards
RedRed

[RedRed]

Summary: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" has been proven deadly accurate in Europe for the last 100 years. It looks like their at it again

Dr Mordrid
We have an awful lot more history to look back on than 100 years...
It is exactly the lessons in history we are talking about.

Its the article we are discussing though, not starting to diss each others nations....

RedRed

[Dr Mordrid]

Sorry...you need to study your history. We left out colonization stage long ago. We've divested of the Phillipines, Panama Canal and a bunch of other territories. A few remain, but eventually two of those will be States (US Virgin Islands & Puerto Rico).

I'd also remind you that after the Soviet Union dissolved we contracted our military considerably. Unfortunately it seems that we contracted some portions of it too much and now have to rebuild them in a new structure better suited to fighting a more distributed threat.

Sorry if you can't see the dangers of what we in the US are calling "the new normal", but then the fittest survive...right?

Dr. Mordrid

[RedRed]

Dr Mordird

Russia is worried about more than that.....

Today there was an article on the front pages of a russian daly (it was in a disccusion radio show this morning - cant remember the title) , describing how the Russians are worried about the debt Iraq owes, sure... but more so about the fact that Rusian crude cost >$20 a barrel to produce (one of the most expensive in the world).....

If Iraq is toppled, it will be allowed to produce again.... this will cripple the russian economy - as oil is now one if its major exports.

Russia doesnt want a new, Massive source of oil to come onstream - it will bankrupt them.

RedRed

[RedRed]

Then we will die....

I wasnt referring to colonisation... the British empire was much, much more about exerting influence and control. It WASNT about colonisation, certainly after Australia, America, New Zealand and Zimbabwe....

I am fairly aware of my history, thanks....

Regards
RedRed

[RichL]

Doc, how many years was America involved in both world wars, and what was the percentage of its young male population that came home either in a body bag or scarred for life?
How many mainland American cities were damaged or destroyed by enemy bombs, and how many American civillians were killed (excluding merchant seamen)?
How many of your civillians were on food rationing or even starved?
How many American soldiers went into battle and wondered if they'd have a home or a family alive to go back to when it was all over?

The answers, I suspect, can be summarised as "Not as many or as much as the European participants of the last two world wars."


To say we have no backbone and are scared of a war that will affect our civillian populations is like saying "You're scared of putting your genitals in a meat grinder, arent you?"

"Nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won. "
- The Duke of Wellington, surveying the battlefield after the battle of Waterloo

[RedRed]

541 civillians at Pearl harbour, if I remember rightly, 4 others in Japanese ballon raids.

[Novdid]

There were surely some others, right?

[RedRed]

There may have bee on some other Islands.... I dont know....
That, if I remember correctly is the numbers of American CIVILLIANS killed ON AMERICAN SOIL during BOTH world wars....

I used to remember the sirname of the family killed by the balloon-bomb.

RedRed