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Sorry, Just have to let it out: new HW stinks.

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  • Sorry, Just have to let it out: new HW stinks.

    A few days ago I succumbed to a sudden urge to upgrade my aging hardware setup, so I bought myself a Connect3D 8500LE (it didn´t say LE on the box, of course) to replace my trusted Radeon32DDR.
    I shouldn´t have done that.
    After the standard driver installation woes, it was up and running. Well, almost. It turned out to be impossible to bring the damned thing to run at 1280x960, my preferred resolution. I know this res. isn´t enabled by default (what does Ati have against it, really?) but the registry hacks that works with my old Ati card simply doesn´t work with the new one. ARRRRGGGHHH. Tried a few other nifty tricks, but nothing worked.

    But that wasn´t the worst thing, by far. The 2D was the worst that I have seen in many years. Nowhere near the impeccable 2D of my Radeon32DDR. This card was simply unusable. While it ran the 3D apps I tried with very good speed, the image quality made it impossible to keep.

    No problem getting a refund though.

    Determined to try something else, I yesterday went to another place and bought an ASUS GF4 4200 128 Mb. Why ASUS? Because I got a good price.
    The good price seems to come for a reason.

    Out with the old and in with the new.
    2D okay, not as good as Radeon32DDR, but o.k. It´s just that @ 1280x960 it refuses to run at higher than 60 Hz. Ha ha, very funny.
    I d/l the NV RefreshFix tool to get passed the XP 60 Hz thing. It doesn´t work, keeps telling it can´t find the chip in it´s database (it´s in there alright). But before crashing it actually sets the refresh rate in games to 70 Hz. Not much of a difference. Still 60 Hz @ 1280x960 though.

    Most 3D benchies (except 3DMark) and games run slower/choppier than on the 8500LE, which they shouldn´t do. I shouldn´t say ”most”, since only a few run at all! The most hilarious thing is, that the bundled Aquanox crashes on load, saying there isn´t enough graphics memory. (At least DxDiag reports the full amount of mem.) And the UT2003 demo, which has a special nVidia splash screen, crashes in vaious places, E.g running the asbestos flyby always results in a crash.
    MBTR benchmark has serious artifacts, which renders it unusable.
    Intergraphs 3DExersizer won´t run at all, as doesn´t Indy3D! And so on, you get the picture.
    And 3dMax 5 runs like a dog.

    This is the second POS I have had to deal with in just a couple of days.

    So, the 4200 is out of my box, and I will have my refund on monday.

    Ahh, I don´t know how to install hardware, you might say. To that I just say: if I can´t get it to run properly after 4-5 hours of tweeking not many will.
    I´m sure I could get further in resolving the issues if I were to give it a few days, or a week or two.
    I just don´t think I (or anybody else) should have to. And I certainly don´t want to, taking into account that in e.g. Colin McRae 2 the difference is negligable; everything at max @ 1152x864 is unplayable. Don´t even think about using FSAA and AF here.

    So what is my point? My point is, that if producers/vendors don´t get their act together and deliver equipment that at least work at a standard that have some resemblance to what is advertised, we shouldn´t buy their shitty products.
    A second point is, that drivers haven´t really become any better. Fixing one problem creates another, likely.

    I was thrilled with the 9700, and really planned to buy me one, when avaialble.
    Having read about a heap of problems, and having seen the bad rendering in some screenshots on the web , I won´t though.
    And the recent experiences really puts me off.

    Get a Parhelia? Not at that price.

    Seems I´m kinda stuck.

    rubank

  • #2
    Umm... my 8500 rocks. Nary a problem, all games run flawlessly and fast.

    Sorry you had problems, but you know... you should really buy genuine ATI hardware.

    - Gurm
    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

    I'm the least you could do
    If only life were as easy as you
    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
    If only life were as easy as you
    I would still get screwed

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gurm

      ... you should really buy genuine ATI hardware.

      - Gurm
      Yeah, if they sold it in europe. (My Radeon32 is original though).

      Comment


      • #4
        also sounds like your windows load is probably fux0red, unless your luck is really that bad. granted, it might be.

        NVidia is probably the worst thing that ever happened to the graphics card industry. yeah, they dropped prices blahblahblah. outsourcing the production of components (vs ATI and 3dfx's model at the time) was a great business tactic, but a lack stiff product design guidelines caused quality of cards to vary on brand, model, week it was produced, etc.

        they became popular because they were cheap and people didn't know any different. kinda like the AMD platform initially. don't get me wrong, i love AMD processors. but VIA has screwed it up from the beginning by giving motherboard vendors the level of freedom they had with motherboard design, and AMD didn't really enforce any sort of certification program...

        bah...
        "And yet, after spending 20+ years trying to evolve the user interface into something better, what's the most powerful improvement Apple was able to make? They finally put a god damned shell back in." -jwz

        Comment


        • #5
          Most R9700 boards that are sold now are in fact Built-by-ATI boards. My HIS R9700PRO e.g. is a built by ATI card, you can check this on ATIs homepage with your boards PN and/or the BIOS number.
          The R8500 is easily available as Built-by-ATI in Europe, both the LE and the non-LE.

          I too think that your windows install has gone bad, since the problems you had with the Gf4 are really not the typical experience. Do a clean windows install and then try it before RMA'ing the card.

          And the issue with the 1280x960 resolution is easily fixable, there are several tools, the easiest is PowerStrip.
          But we named the *dog* Indiana...
          My System
          2nd System (not for Windows lovers )
          German ATI-forum

          Comment


          • #6
            a small tidbit of info... I've seen HIS boards that are entirely branded as if they were NVidia manufactured cards... i've also seen NVidia give away HIS boards as NVidia manufactured boards...

            granted, that deals with NVidia and not ATI, but its still a little tid bit of info...
            "And yet, after spending 20+ years trying to evolve the user interface into something better, what's the most powerful improvement Apple was able to make? They finally put a god damned shell back in." -jwz

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh, and before installing a new card, always clean the registry from your old card or reinstall the OS to get truly what your card can do....
              Let us return to the moon, to stay!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Make sure you uninstalled Ati drivers. I'd reinstall Windows from scratch. (You can install a different copy in another folder/partition just to make sure.) I've seen a thread where guy had problems with R9700 performance after upgrade from 8500 because of older drivers.

                I haven't uninstalled Ati drivers and installed other drivers over them but after uninstalling nVidia drivers I cannot install Matrox drivers, while vice versa is possible.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeah, if they sold it in europe. (My Radeon32 is original though).
                  Here they do!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just for the record, since you seem to think otherwise, there´s nothing wrong at all with my WinXP install and of course I got rid of the old drivers, including all registry entries as well as every related file in windows, and no I didn´t forget to check the reg. reference for the appropriate OGL driver.

                    And as I said, the 8500LE worked except for the 1280x960 thing, it just had this totally awful 2D quality and that has nothing to do with Windows (or the drivers). It disturbed me to the point that I might have missed some simple tweak for the 1280x960 to work, but there was no point in going on with it.

                    I don´t like PowerStrip, I don´t need PowerStrip and the reg. settings it changes I can change for myself.

                    For the 8500LE I tried two driver sets, the latest Catalyst and the latest OmegaPlutonium. Same behaviour.

                    For the GF4 I also tried two drivers, the ones in WinXP and the latest Detonators. The constant crashes and the many artifacts along with the disappointing performance might suggest there´s something wrong with this particular card, but I´m too tired to test another one, so it´s a gonner. I´ll just pass by the store and get my money back.

                    Indiana,
                    in Sweden the 9700 that I have found available, are Connect3D:s, and from my experience with the 8500LE you know what I think of Connect3D.
                    And the issues reported, and lacking image quality in som screenies, doesn´t encourage me to shell out that kind of money (~ $475).

                    rubank

                    PS. A clean windoes install? You must be joking! If you knew how my setup looks you wouldn´t suggest it

                    BTW, some anomalies I thought of as issues with my old Radeon were the same with both the tested cards, so are game related rather than card/driver obviously.
                    Did I mention that everything works perfectly now that I´m back to my old card?

                    Edit:some adjustments.
                    Last edited by rubank; 21 September 2002, 17:45.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rubank

                      And as I said, the 8500LE worked except for the 1280x960 thing, it just had this totally awful 2D quality and that has nothing to do with Windows (or the drivers).
                      Yes, but the Built-by-ATI Radeon8500 boards have better image quality than most OEM ones (maybe except Hercules). Still even the original ATI R8500 is worse considering 2D than my old Radeon DDR VIVO.
                      The R9700 is better again, not really up to Matrox standard, but fully acceptable.


                      Originally posted by rubank
                      Indiana,
                      in Sweden the 9700 that I have found available, are Connect3D:s, and from my experience with the 8500LE you know what I think of Connect3D.
                      And the issues reported, and lacking image quality in som screenies, doesn´t encourage me to shell out that kind of money (~ $475).
                      Lacking image quality on the R9700? Where? (the only annoyance I can currently think of is that the AA does only work in 32Bit depth). Other than that there ARE some smaller driver quirks, but not more than the R8500 or the old Radeon had and still has since it's based on the same driver core. Image quality in games is up with the R8500/9000/9700 in newer game titles as the old Radeon simply can't render some effects.

                      I can understand your feelings towards Connect3D, this is why I got my 9700 so early (in spite of it being expensive):
                      Because nearly all sold cards are really original ATI ones now, as is the case with my HIS - this will change in the future when the OEMs have begun with their own production.
                      But we named the *dog* Indiana...
                      My System
                      2nd System (not for Windows lovers )
                      German ATI-forum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gurm
                        Umm... my 8500 rocks. Nary a problem, all games run flawlessly and fast.
                        Same here....
                        Also, I use Rage 3D Tweak v3.6 to enable the
                        1280x960 resolution.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Indiana,

                          I have seen screenshots at Digit-life and Beyond3D that show problems with shadows and texture quality, and I´m not the only one.
                          Then there´s the AGP 8x thing, does it work or not? It might not be a big thing, but if Ati brags about it they should deliver.
                          There is no reason I should have to expect less than perfect at that price.

                          On a sidenote, I don´t like their website.
                          No user forum, like Matrox has, and not a even a single email address, as far as I can see. Lousy.

                          One more thing,
                          FSAA is not a big thing for me, in the kind of games I run it´s not important (only in Flight Simulator, and i don´t fly much now). Good AF on the other hand is, and I know Ati is good in that department.
                          There is so much in the way games look that need to be dealt with, that these new features really doesn´t mean a whole lot, especially since the new features won´t be taken advantage of for quite some time.

                          As long as most games still look like collages, with sharp objects glued onto blurry objects, or vice versa, new hardware features won´t help.
                          (MBTR is one of few exceptions).

                          And TOM, I do have Rage3DTweak.


                          rubank

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Actually, the image quality _IS_ driver dependent.

                            I'd try the VERY latest O/P's available now, as they are based on the Catalyst 2.3's (also new 2 days ago) which are in turn based on the builtins from WinXP SP1, which have MUCH improved image quality.

                            For a long time I regretted going from my Radeon 64MB DDR to the 8500, since I perceived a loss in image quality. But it was all drivers.

                            Frankly, I _do_ find it a bit bizarre that ATI's drivers affect 2D IQ _THAT_ much.

                            Anyway, I don't see any problems here other than you getting a couple pieces of dodgy hardware.

                            - Gurm
                            The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                            I'm the least you could do
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I would still get screwed

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              rubank, can't you find Hercules Radeons? I've seen two 8500LE's by them at work and they are very good...I think that they also have an R9000 model out....Hercules has always been good in the past, I would say to go with them.
                              All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

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