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mikeul
2nd July 2002, 03:23
I've asked repeatedly for the beta testers here to tell the results they had with the new parhelia drivers released by matrox, but they all refused for all kinds of reasons (they didn't want to be "forced to test drivers which matrox didn't ask them to test", etc.)

I asked hardware.fr to test them for me instead since all beta testers here seemed to be swarn to secrecy.
The results are in French and can be read at :
http://www.hardware.fr/news/lire/01-07-2002/

I understand why no one dared to comment on these drivers.

According to hardware.fr, there was NO PERFORMANCE INCREASE AT ALL. Anisotropic filtering and FSAA was UNTOUCHED. Anisotropic filtering is STILL LIMITED to 2x.
There was however some bug correction : textures no longer were blue in Comanche 4. However, AQUANOX was STILL BUGGY in high detail mode (to think that some testers claimed that high detail modes were the modes to use with Parhelia!)
Anisotropic filtering can now be forced in Open GL.

Ryu Connor
2nd July 2002, 03:27
You have rather strange expectations from a driver that is only three build points older than Hardware.fr's drivers and only one build older from what the majority of hardware testers received.

What were you expecting from a build update?

Edward
2nd July 2002, 03:46
Originally posted by Ryu Connor

What were you expecting from a build update?

A 50% gain, 16x aniso with zero perf hit :)

Well, to be honest, I think it will take 2-4 mounths if we are lucky, driver development take very much time.

I have a R8500 and performance is stil increasing and is coming from a long way.

I play with 2 cards a GF4Ti4600 and a R8500 128 mb, (yes I'm freak) both have their charmes, ATI R8500 delivers awesome IQ in d3d with 16 aniso UT 2003 is still playeable, (thats the strength of the R8500, and you don't find it in a review, only Digit-Life) the GF4Ti has superb openGL with awesome lod, and a better aniso performance with latest drivers.

In about a week I'll have 3 cards, when the P arrives, maybe this week I hope
;)

Ant
2nd July 2002, 04:02
I'm really starting to get fed up with the way you post I've already told you about this. I have seen no where any beta tester refusing to give you any sort of information or refuse to test drivers for you. Why they hell should you treat them as your own personal testers? As I've said if this is so all damn important you go out and buy a Parhelia and do the testing yourself.

If you continue to post trolls like this and keep having a go at the BBs and spouting your conspiracy theories your posts will be deleted. Your comments are just pure BS about people not daring to comment, act in a reasonable manner on these forums or you will no longer be welcome here.


Originally posted by mikeul
I've asked repeatedly for the beta testers here to tell the results they had with the new parhelia drivers released by matrox, but they all refused for all kinds of reasons (they didn't want to be "forced to test drivers which matrox didn't ask them to test", etc.)

I asked hardware.fr to test them for me instead since all beta testers here seemed to be swarn to secrecy.
The results are in French and can be read at :
http://www.hardware.fr/news/lire/01-07-2002/

I understand why no one dared to comment on these drivers.

According to hardware.fr, there was NO PERFORMANCE INCREASE AT ALL. Anisotropic filtering and FSAA was UNTOUCHED. Anisotropic filtering is STILL LIMITED to 2x.
There was however some bug correction : textures no longer were blue in Comanche 4. However, AQUANOX was STILL BUGGY in high detail mode (to think that some testers claimed that high detail modes were the modes to use with Parhelia!)
Anisotropic filtering can now be forced in Open GL.

Tempest
2nd July 2002, 04:25
Have patience, young gr****opper...

At this point the weight of driver development will definitely lie on bug-squishing, compatibility and stability instead of performance improvements. Only when those are acquired on the basic driverset can additional features and speed tweaks be implemented.

Compatibility and stability must also be what the beta boys are testing at the moment, so they aren't currently concerned with performance either. The performance might be the same as earlier (in which case they might say "I think the speed is pretty much same as earlier revisions") or they might notice some slight improvements (and say "I think application XYZZY is running a little faster") but not much more than that.

With the first Parhelias hitting store shelves, the beta boys must also be awfully busy at the moment. So I'm not amazed if they tell you they won't test out some driver revision older than the ones they are currently running (which they can't comment on because of their NDAs).

So basically we'll just have to do as Ant says - wait until some non-beta people with a Parhelia and too much time on their hands find their ways into this forum and agree to test out what you want to know.

Ant
2nd July 2002, 04:26
I'll do all the testing you guys want (within reason) as soon as my problems are resolved.

103er-Fan
2nd July 2002, 04:29
No offense to you mikeul, but I think you watched too much X-Files ;)
The BBs here are under NDA, which means they can't give any specific numbers for the drivers, maybe they had even to sign a contract with Matrox to get their cards, and I think you should respect it when they just can't comment on the performance.
Also the Parhelia isn't really available, with some luck you might get bulk versions, but that's it. You can't expect a huge performance increase with the first public driver set.
Just look at the Radeon 8500: The first public drivers alos didn't really changed the performance, they just increased stability and compatibility.
I also don't know why you are only posting any anti-Parhelia comments here, if people like me want to spend 400$ for a gprahics card, then it is their choice, I think everybody here has enough experience to decide if they should get the P. or not.

mikeul
2nd July 2002, 04:34
What is BBz?????

Greebe
2nd July 2002, 04:38
BBz = Matrox Beta Tester(s)

Please read

http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30371

Joel
2nd July 2002, 04:42
At this point the weight of driver development will definitely lie on bug-squishing, compatibility and stability instead of performance improvements. Only when those are acquired on the basic driverset can additional features and speed tweaks be implemented.

Compatibility and stability must also be what the beta boys are testing at the moment, so they aren't currently concerned with performance either. The performance might be the same as earlier (in which case they might say "I think the speed is pretty much same as earlier revisions") or they might notice some slight improvements (and say "I think application XYZZY is running a little faster") but not much more than that.

With the first Parhelias hitting store shelves, the beta boys must also be awfully busy at the moment. So I'm not amazed if they tell you they won't test out some driver revision older than the ones they are currently running (which they can't comment on because of their NDAs).

So basically we'll just have to do as Ant says - wait until some non-beta people with a Parhelia and too much time on their hands find their ways into this forum and agree to test out what you want to know.

Thanks You. I could not have said it any better myself.

Reminds me of Kyle over at Hard????, something or another, saying that the reason me didn't get a card is because Matrox was scared to let him test it. :rolleyes:

Joel

Afronaut
2nd July 2002, 05:18
Not for nothing....

But since these driver seem to really bite..... How good are these Beta Driver testers anyway? It is really a statement of this day and age. These drivers that are mediocre at best, and yet the attitude is "Superbowl" by these boyz. Very entertaining.

frankymail
2nd July 2002, 05:35
BTW Ant, I have a quick and painless (rather joyful) cure for your problem: Viagra :p

Ant
2nd July 2002, 05:37
:D


Originally posted by frankymail
BTW Ant, I have a quick and painless (rather joyful) cure for your problem: Viagra :p

GT98
2nd July 2002, 05:41
Originally posted by Afronaut
Not for nothing....

But since these driver seem to really bite..... How good are these Beta Driver testers anyway? It is really a statement of this day and age. These drivers that are mediocre at best, and yet the attitude is "Superbowl" by these boyz. Very entertaining.

I don't understand your point your trying to make here. The BBz test what is given to them and make suggestions/comments on what needs to be fixed or what M fixed in the newer set of drivers. Matrox is dealing with a totally new Archetechure here and its going to take some time to find out its little tricks here and there to improve performance. Lets remember there hasn't been any really huge changes archetechure of the Geforce series, thus Nvidia has been writing drivers for the same product for nearly 3-4 years now and everything is tweeked out to the max as far as the software and hardware performance.

Greebe
2nd July 2002, 06:15
afronaut, seeing that you are absolutely clueless as to what function we perform for Matrox as Beta testers, please refrain from makes such rediculous and slanderous comments.

Afronaut
2nd July 2002, 06:47
What ever secret "Function" you have provided has produced drivers that have been tested and benched on various sites. These results should not produce an EGO the size of Texas. I would be a slight bit humble these days.

After many weeks of "I know something you don't know" on the MURC. It is now clear that there was not much to know. This time your NDA protected you from telling the truth about a gaming card that is outperformed by a cards that are 75% less expensive. Oh it's smooth.... I forgot.

One would think you would be responsible for part of these "beta-final release" drivers or your "function" is worthless and provides nothing substantial to the final product. If you are part of the process then you should take part of the responsibility.

But that is not what happens these days. Super Bowl ego's have no part in taking responsibility. It just is not part of modern society.

You have all eaten Crow and you do not even know it. That's because it taste like chicken

RedRed
2nd July 2002, 06:49
Ive served my time as a software tester... not pleasent :)

I am not a Beta Tester for Parhelia (worst luck....) but I can tell you doubters one thing... Its a bitch of a job.... It requires mindset not just thourough, but with lateral thinking too.

You guys with hangups and problems with testing.... try to be a tester yourself, there are plenty of projects on the 'net you can sign up for.

Its not conspiricy to keep quiet about the developments and fixes being tested... its common and commercial sense...

mikeul:
you dont understand the role of the Beta tester at this stage of development of a product. The Parhelia (unless M has something else in development -which I doubt) will have a life with Matrox of at least 4 years... It will be supported for perhapse another 2.... The drivers will not show significant improvement in performance for perhaps 8-12 months, while peripheral stability issues are resolved.... (I would guess). The core stability issues are resolved, I would reckon.

Beta testing is relatively straight forward when you are working on 'core' functionality/applications.... it gets more difficult as the level of interaction required to reproduce a problem.

Even when the testers get a problem, its no use crying to M, saying 'I found a bug.....' They have to be able to reproduce it! That can be a complete bitch!

Regards
RedRed

Joel
2nd July 2002, 06:55
And they wonder why we don't want to say anything. :rolleyes:

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.

If we say anything and it is not what they want to hear then we are going to be bitched at and if we don't then we are accused of hiding something. Personally I don't have time for this BS.

Joel

Cheesekeeper
2nd July 2002, 07:01
BetaBoyz: see - everything that goes wrong with the Parhelia from this point onward is officially your fault....... :p

Sasq
2nd July 2002, 07:12
Afronaut, there is nothing secret about the BB's function. What knowledge they do have is a different matter.

They do a good job of helping people resolve problems with Matrox and other products.

As far as 'eating crow' I havn't seen anything in any review (that wasn't totally fps centric) to suggest that Parhalia is anything less then what we were told to expect.

Greebe has already posted the link, but here it is again
http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30371
Its the fori survival guide. I'd suggest going and reading it.

Also there is more to the MURC then this one forum, try posting whines (and we will supply the cheese) in the more appropriate forum

Jon P. Inghram
2nd July 2002, 07:22
After many weeks of "I know something you don't know" on the MURC.

He's got a point on that... you guys really do get irritating when you start up with that stuff. If you can't talk about it, please don't taunt us about the mysterious secrets that you know.

Greebe
2nd July 2002, 07:23
LOL... Soon™ we'll have a crispy clueless n00b served up.. and I'm in the mood for Kabobs today :p

Greebe
2nd July 2002, 07:28
Oh Jon U luv it and U know it.

I'd be willing to guess that 80% want to hear and 15% don't care either way and 5% git urked... if you don't want to see it then close your eyes!

Dr Mordrid
2nd July 2002, 07:33
Originally posted by Afronaut
Not for nothing....

But since these driver seem to really bite..... How good are these Beta Driver testers anyway? It is really a statement of this day and age. These drivers that are mediocre at best, and yet the attitude is "Superbowl" by these boyz. Very entertaining.

FYI the driver builds at this point are very early and performance is not anywhere near what is possible. Anyone with common sense would know this.

Since you don't have a freakin' clue as to what goes on in a beta testing drivers I'll forgive this transgression, but after this you can expect to be totally fragged and nuked for this kind of BS post.

Dr. Mordrid

Electric Amish
2nd July 2002, 07:41
Originally posted by Afronaut
What ever secret "Function" you have provided has produced drivers that have been tested and benched on various sites. These results should not produce an EGO the size of Texas. I would be a slight bit humble these days.

After many weeks of "I know something you don't know" on the MURC. It is now clear that there was not much to know. This time your NDA protected you from telling the truth about a gaming card that is outperformed by a cards that are 75% less expensive. Oh it's smooth.... I forgot.

One would think you would be responsible for part of these "beta-final release" drivers or your "function" is worthless and provides nothing substantial to the final product. If you are part of the process then you should take part of the responsibility.

But that is not what happens these days. Super Bowl ego's have no part in taking responsibility. It just is not part of modern society.

You have all eaten Crow and you do not even know it. That's because it taste like chicken

The BBz test and report what they find to Matrox. They have no say at all in what does or does not get fixed in each driver revision. It's not like they are actually coding the drivers themselves. Where's the last hardware driver you coded and beta-tested?

amish :rolleyes:

DGhost
2nd July 2002, 08:03
Originally posted by Electric Amish


Where's the last hardware driver you coded and beta-tested?


and the latest leaked ATI or NVidia driver does not count....

ALBPM
2nd July 2002, 08:13
Ahh, another day starts at MURC :D :D

I can smell the flesh slowly sizziling over the open flames.




And they wonder why we don't want to say anything.

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.

If we say anything and it is not what they want to hear then we are going to be bitched at and if we don't then we are accused of hiding something. Personally I don't have time for this BS.


What Joel said !!!!! :D :D

All this abuse and we don't even get any Booth Babes or anything for getting caught in the middle. :eek: :rolleyes:

The tough part is it's up to Matrox to prioritize and fix the issues we find. So, this can be very fustrating for us some times.

Paul

GT98
2nd July 2002, 08:22
I have a question for you since I have no idea of what your intentons are here on this board...why are you staying around and pissing off people that have been here a hell of alot longer then you have? We know what the deal is and how this place works and I would highly suggest reading the forum rules that have been placed several times in this thread or you'll find yourself banned by Ant for breaking the rules here....




Originally posted by Afronaut
What ever secret "Function" you have provided has produced drivers that have been tested and benched on various sites. These results should not produce an EGO the size of Texas. I would be a slight bit humble these days.

After many weeks of "I know something you don't know" on the MURC. It is now clear that there was not much to know. This time your NDA protected you from telling the truth about a gaming card that is outperformed by a cards that are 75% less expensive. Oh it's smooth.... I forgot.

One would think you would be responsible for part of these "beta-final release" drivers or your "function" is worthless and provides nothing substantial to the final product. If you are part of the process then you should take part of the responsibility.

But that is not what happens these days. Super Bowl ego's have no part in taking responsibility. It just is not part of modern society.

You have all eaten Crow and you do not even know it. That's because it taste like chicken

Joel
2nd July 2002, 08:25
Cornerstone C1025 21 in Montior

Excellent monitor, isn't it???

Joel

Ant
2nd July 2002, 09:00
OK let this be an end to all this bickering please. I'll state a couple of facts, there are far more beta testers around here than most of you know but they don't come out in the open because of this sort of hassle. Second the things beta testers have said that some take for gloating have come of because of the sheer amount of pressure applied to them by people in these forums, they are under NDA so can only express things in a round about way. Is there any wonder they don't want to talk when they get accused of all sorts of rubbish like this?

I really do mean let this be an end to it.

Elie
2nd July 2002, 09:15
Yes what Ant said :)

Cheers,
Elie

DukeP
2nd July 2002, 09:24
The End?
Hey! I like a little written fisticus. I teaches me soo many nice nuances of the english language.. :)

~~DukeP~~

ALBPM
2nd July 2002, 09:46
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

We all take our turn on the BBQ at MURC. :eek: :D :p
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/pmahl/bbqd.gif


Todays Special is Grilled Beta Boiz - $9.99 Lunch or $15.99 Dinner

Lightly seasoned, grilled to perfection over mesquite coals served with your choice of potatoe, rice pilaf or pasta with our Chef's garden fresh vegetable medly :D

Paul

DukeP
2nd July 2002, 09:51
Hello Chef!
Ill take the Dinner at $15.99. Please serve with Potatoe and some decent beer.. :)

~~DukeP~~

BTW: Paul have You read the book by Anthony Burdain called: Kitchen Confidential?
Its a blast. Sex, Food and Rock&Roll.. :)

Kruzin
2nd July 2002, 10:26
Geez.
I'm away for a few hours, and this is the kind of drivel that gets posted?

Mikeul,
Like it or not, the beta testers are not here for YOUR personal inqueries. We have no obligation to answer a single one of your questions. Speaking only for myself, I have not answered your questions because I find you to be abusive, abrasive, and generally a jerk. I see no reason to expend my time on someone like you.

I could rant on for paragraphs here, but as I said, to me you are not worth the effort

As far as the drivers go...be realistic. They are only up to ver 1.00.01.226. Fixing bugs takes priority over benchmark scores. Once the bugs ae squashed more time can be devoted to optimizing.


Thread closed.