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  • They are going to cause more trouble than they are worth.

    GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AP) - Military guards at a detention camp at Guantanamo Bay say they have noticed a command structure emerging among the terrorist suspects being held there, camp leaders said Saturday. The leaders seem to surface during prayer sessions.

    Of the evolving leadership structure, Brig. Gen. Mike Lehnert said, "We have indications that many have received training, and that they are observing actions such as security procedures."

    Lehnert, a Marine, heads the task force in charge of the detention missions at Camp X-Ray. Some 158 terrorist suspects from the war in Afghanistan are being held at the camp, in southeastern Cuba.

    He said there have been "some attempts to secret away materials or to coordinate activities. Given their background and training, this is something that we have anticipated."

    Army Lt. Col. Bernie Liswell, battalion commander of the military police, said the would-be leaders seem to emerge during the five-times daily prayer periods.

    "Their main effort collectively appears to be at prayer time," he said, "Such as those who want to lead a prayer."

    The Miami Herald this week reported that the most prominent inmate appears to be the former Taliban army chief of staff, Mullah Fazel Mazloom, though U.S. commanders have refused to identify the detainees.

    Liswell also told reporters that military guards have found rocks and stones in the cells of some of the suspects, but it was unclear whether the detainees were planning an attack or just playing a game like tic-tac-toe.

    "They can either use that as a sharpening device or to write with," he said.

    He said some prisoners have been seen trying to write messages in the ground with the rocks.

    "We take rocks, tell them not to do that," he said.

    Meanwhile, military officials are working on making life more comfortable for the detainees held in open-air cells with walls of chain-link fence set on a concrete slab and topped by a corrugated iron roof.

    Army Col. Terry Carrico, the commander of Camp X-Ray, says the prisoners are going to be allowed to grow back their beards, along with the long hair that many devout Muslim men wear and that was shaved off when they were captured.

    They're also getting pita bread with their meals now, and officials are working with the International Committee of the Red Cross on detainees' requests to have tea and novels to read, Carrico said.

    Officials have adopted a system of punishment for bad behavior and rewards for good.

    "We've issued prayer (skull) caps today," Carrico said. "We can always reward good behavior." Earlier this week, the prisoners appeared pleased when a Muslim Navy cleric arrived to lead morning prayers, and they were given Qurans, the sacred text of Islam.

    In isolated instances when prisoners "act out," a comfort item is withdrawn.

    "We've taken, for instance, their water bottle. They decided to throw water at us. We took their canteens of water, we kept it for a few hours, and we gave it back to them.

    "It seems to do the trick," he said.

    Some 20 legislators from the United States toured the camp this weekend amid an international outcry over the treatment and status of the detainees. The suspected al-Qaida and Taliban fighters held there were being interrogated by American authorities seeking intelligence to help the U.S.-led war on terrorism.

    The prisoners are from 25 countries and some may be sent to their homelands to face military tribunals once interrogators have completed questioning them, Republican Sen. James Inhofe of Oklahoma said Friday.

    Officials have refused to identify the detainees nationalities, but Britain, Sweden, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Australia have said they have citizens among detainees in Guantanamo.

    The delegation said it was more interested in finding whether interrogations that began Wednesday were yielding useful information to fight the war on terrorism.

    Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson said interrogators "are starting to obtain valuable information."

    Several of the visitors also said they found the treatment humane and backed the U.S. refusal to bow to demands that the detainees be declared prisoners-of-war under the Geneva Conventions, which would prevent them being tried by secret military commissions empowered with the death sentence.

    "We're dealing with terrorists here ... They don't represent a country. They don't wear uniforms," Inhofe said.

    Bush administration lawyers are divided over whether the convention applies to the suspects. President Bush feels it does not, saying these detainees are terrorists, not uniformed members of a national military.
    Like I said we should have went in there with a policy of take no prisoner.

    Joel
    Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

    www.lp.org

    ******************************

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    Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

  • #2
    These men all need to be shot. Period. No trial. No paying attention to bleeding heart traitors. Shot until dead.

    These same bleeding hearts think killing terrorists is so awful when they wholeheartedly support this in the name of selfishness and convenience. This is why I am not a liberal, why I find feminists and liberals vile and evil human beings, and why I will not shut up about it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Joel - resistance - what do you expect from a POW? You would be ashamed if an american soldier did not at least contemplate resistance and think about escape. It is their duty.

      KV
      Why should prisoners be shot? I dont support abortion (of any type). Not all of these people are Alquaeda. Some are apparently straight talibhan. The Talibhan are NOT terrorists. (even acording to early George Bush II) Even if they were all terrorists, dehumanising them will get you nowhere. It is said that revenge breeds retribution. Would you be willing to kill someone because some 'suit' told you that they 'was a bad man'? I dissagree with state execution at the best of times, but until you have tried a person, in PUBLIC you cant just take the word of your government! We have all heard the secretary of state say just how dangerous these men are, but we have yet to get ANY evidence of it.

      Rags has often said that American people dont trust the American Government. Yet you are saying that we should agree to the US killing the citizens of some 15 other countries without a trial? There are 3 British, and at least 2 Australians. The Australians have put in an extradition request for their citizen. The british WILL kick up a stink, if their nationals are killed. The French (there may be some from there too) will also. Do you think you will be ABLE to keep troops in Saudi if their nationals are killed? not without some fancy footwork!

      Even it the Al'Quaeda organisation commited every crime in the book, the INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS should be the ones tried, NOT the whole membership.

      I am NOT saying that these people are GOOD people, they are all probably evil, what I am saying is that WHITHOUT EVIDENCE, YOU CANNOT JUDGE. YOU CANNOT EXECUTE an INDIVIDUAL for the crimes of an ORGANISATION. That is like saying every GERMAN soldier should have been tried at Nuremburg.

      Regards
      RedRed
      Dont just swallow the blue pill.

      Comment


      • #4
        None of this matters.
        They are there because we want intel info from them.
        Otherwise they would have been pitched over the side, chains & all a long time ago.
        chuck
        Chuck
        秋音的爸爸

        Comment


        • #5
          CJ it really, really does matter!
          The pictures of these people (mostly the al'quaeda/talibhan 'forien bregade') are beamed across the world. When the british started interment without trial here in Northern Ireland, it started the greatest recruitment drive for the IRA in its entire history!!!! More atrocities happened during that time than before.

          RedRed
          Dont just swallow the blue pill.

          Comment


          • #6
            Bush administration lawyers are divided over whether the convention applies to the suspects. President Bush feels it does not, saying these detainees are terrorists, not uniformed members of a national military.
            I will bet the lawers feel uncomfortable with it. Mary Robinson went on air at the weekend stating that it was clearly a breach of the articles of the geniva convention. You dont have to belong to an army to be treated under the articles. Yor have to either belong to an army OR belong to ANY ORGANISATION FIGTING OR SUPPORTING THAT ARMY. The Talibhan were the national army of Afghanistan, the Talibhan could be percieved as fighting with Talibhan forces, therefore covered under the articles of the Geniva Canvention.

            The classification used by Bush II is that usually ascribed to looters or bandits in a warzone.

            RedRed
            Dont just swallow the blue pill.

            Comment


            • #7
              No, you don't have to be a soldier to be covered by the Geneva conventions rules for POW's.

              That said there is also nothing that MANDATES what international law calls "illegitimate combatants", meaning those who were un-uniformed and without rank insignia, must be treated that way. It's up to the President's discretion and the rules of engagement he sets up.

              In point of fact such un-uniformed combatants have in the past been shot as spies right after debriefing. Would you rather he acted on precident?

              Since they didn't give civilians in the towers any such discretion by only attacking a military target then we shouldn't give them any either.

              Get the intel then feed 'em to the military tribunal at Guantanamo...then go looking for a nice tall tree.

              Dr. Mordrid
              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 27 January 2002, 21:28.
              Dr. Mordrid
              ----------------------------
              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

              Comment


              • #8
                RedRed, I know that individual opinions vary, especially across the globe, but the liberal community in this country was represented by the Clintons, and still is in most respects. It was Bill Clinton who vetoed a bill passed by Congress to ban this barbaric type of murder which is inflicted upon those who are, beyond argument, innocent of any crime whatsoever. If the most violent and hateful murderers were to be subjected to execution by having a pair of scissors thrust into their skulls and having their brains suctioned out, there would be a public outcry in this country from the left and the right. Yes, I was overzealous.. these people should of course receive trials, but punishment should be swift. We don't need to be crying over their fate in the media for months on end.

                Comment


                • #9
                  mordrid:

                  you said
                  Since they didn't give civilians in the towers any such discretion by only attacking a military target then we shouldn't give them any either.
                  I take it that the reference to 'they' is the al'queda.... For your information, 2 of the three british POW's (both 24 year olds) only left britian in November. NOT all of these prisoners ARE ravening Psychotics, whith some sort of Sociopathic tendency....

                  KV thanks, I am against abortion (which is NOT generally seen as a political issue in the UK) (BTW that type of abortion is a very late term one, illegal in most countries..... the net result is the same, but they are NOT typically carried out in that fashion. I have worked in surgucal theaters years ago, and I can assure you of this. I have seen several mid to late term abortions take place.)

                  you say:
                  these people should of course receive trials, but punishment should be swift.
                  I agree entirely.... NOT some trumped up tribrunal with defendants and their briefs having no access to the evidence though, that just takes the piss, and makes the state no better than the terrorist.


                  RedRed
                  Dont just swallow the blue pill.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RedRed
                    ....For your information, 2 of the three british POW's (both 24 year olds) only left britian in November. NOT all of these prisoners ARE ravening Psychotics, whith some sort of Sociopathic tendency....
                    RedRed
                    That just means the knew that they were fighting for the terorists.
                    I like the idea of pitching them out in the atlantic with chains attached, than the tree idea.
                    Doesn't give their followers any where to memorialize.
                    Chuck
                    Chuck
                    秋音的爸爸

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I hereby withdraw my suggested punishment and accept wholeheartedly CJ's

                      AS for these idiots just volunteering in November.....toodamnbad.

                      It just shows that getting rid of them permanently will improve the species.

                      Dr. Mordrid
                      Dr. Mordrid
                      ----------------------------
                      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That just means the knew that they were fighting for the terorists.
                        Or it meant that they were fighting with the Talibhan - Just as your or my (grand)parents might have faught against the Facists in Spain. These were misguided, (like the Anti-facist 'foriegn bregade')-ie on the loosing side - but not necessarialy terrorists. Until some EVIDENCE is presented, you CANNOT just take your countries word for it! BEING in AFGHANISTAN (the only evidence presented so far) is NOT enough. Due process. Dont say that Al'queda did not exercise due process on Sept 11.... That is just a cop-out! The US is bigger abd better than the terrorists, surely.



                        In the States it was (perhaps still is) not illegal to belong to the KKK, an ofensive organisation, if ever there was one. Now, lets suppose the US govenment says that the KKK was behind a group of grisly killings.... Does that give them the right to assinate EVERY member of that organisation? I think not! (even if they ARE all Rednecks!)


                        RedRed
                        Last edited by RedRed; 28 January 2002, 11:16.
                        Dont just swallow the blue pill.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To: KvHagedorn

                          About the abortion crap these people from nrlc.org are posting:

                          All people who are against abortion keep telling us that life begins at fertilization, when the spearm reaches the egg.
                          Well most of the time this happens, the fertilized egg does not reach it´s destiny. It is flushed out by the few "delightful" days every woman has.
                          This just simply means that every woman, which had more than one period in her life is a serial killer!

                          Try this link and read some other medical issues: http://www.cbctrust.com/medproc.html


                          As for the Taliban:

                          *WE* are the civilized people! We have international conventions against crimes. So we also have to use them. These people are criminals *and* prisoners of war.
                          The only civilized way to deal with them is an international court to judge them. For all the world to see.
                          Otherwise we risk to slipp down on their level.
                          And I would not want that to happen.
                          There is no weakness, but to cringe and despair because one thinks oneself weak.
                          For so long as one´s will is undefeated one is strong, for so long as the desire for revenge still endures.
                          -Tom Holland, Deliver us from Evil

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You don't even know what you're talking about so please be careful with your terminology.

                            Redneck started as a purjorative term for working class whites in the South, probably because they got burned on the backs of their necks while working out in the sun.

                            Redneck eventually evolved into a self deprecating, but good natured, ID badge for Southerners of all kinds. I even know a lot of blacks that call themselves Rednecks because of their Southern origins. Go figure.

                            The KKK was at first nothing more than a post-Civil War lodge where men went to get away from their wives and get drunk. Over a span of 2-3 years the original founders lost control of the organization whereupon it spread and evolved into the terrorist organization we know now.

                            What's interesting is that the KKK has more members outside the South than inside it. There are even Klan chapters in Canada

                            THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING SO DON'T USE 'EM IN THE SAME BREATH!!

                            Also: while the Klan may well be offensive, in this country you have the right to be offensive so we don't outlaw organizations or make association with them illegal. We only outlaw illegal activities. It's called freedom of speech and association and Constitutionally guaranteed.

                            As for the US being "bigger and better" than the terrorists...why? This is war my friend, which is exercised by different rules than those used in normal discourse.

                            In a war you follow the rules of war, one of which is that non-uniformed and non-ranked combatants DO NOT have to be given the status of POW. They can be tried by a military tribunal (done many times in the past), imprisoned or executed as spies.

                            This cannot be done to a POW, which is exactly why they should not be given that privelidged status. In point of fact if they were given POW status they would have to be released after the end of the conflict.

                            Does anyone doubt that releasing them would result in their ending up on a plane lighting shoe-bombs? Is that what you really want?

                            I sure don't, and this is exactly what would be the (hopefully) unintended consequence of your position.

                            Dr. Mordrid
                            Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 28 January 2002, 14:12.
                            Dr. Mordrid
                            ----------------------------
                            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've never seen a taliban soldat (terrorist) that weared an uniform (with our without ranks) .
                              Main: Dual Xeon LV2.4Ghz@3.1Ghz | 3X21" | NVidia 6800 | 2Gb DDR | SCSI
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                              Third: Apple G4 450Mhz | 21" Monitor | Radeon 8500 | 1,5Gb SDRAM | SCSI

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