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  • Audio Receivers

    These are a couple of topics I was asked about recently. I've had a lot of people asking me about this, so hopefully these answers will give everyone my opinions in advance about this stuff. I've been an audiophile for 20 years and working in the industry for about 12, so maybe some of you will find my insights worthwhile. I hope so.

    THX certification:

    THX certification is a nice buzzword, isn't it? They lost all credibility with me when I heard of a $250 set of 5 computer speakers with sub which was THX certified. When the original THX specs came out they required a number of basic things from manufacturers in order to be THX certified. First, each amplifier channel had to produce 100 watts with 3db peak headroom above this (basically saying that this had to be a true high current amp.) The other main specs had to do with dispersion characteristics of the speakers. Further, there were specs introduced for wire and rooms, with speaker placement in the rooms being critical. There was also a decorrelation algorithm employed for producing out-of-phase surround information from the dipole surrounds which must be used. The problem with all this was that the extremely directional front THX speakers were awful at producing stereo music, most people were not willing to completely dedicate their rooms to be a perfect environment for the THX effect, and a fee had to be paid to THX by the equipment manufacturer for the certification to take place. The first THX components which came out were expensive seperate amp/preamp solutions since they had to meet the original specs, which were subsequently weakened so THX could collect more revenue from the certification of more units. If you buy something based upon THX certification today, in my opinion you're wasting your money.

    Yamaha vs. Denon:

    I have been selling Yamaha products for as long as I've been in the industry, and they and Denon are arch-rivals. You don't see stores selling both unless extraordinary circumstances interfere (the only case I know of was when a Yamaha dealer and a Denon dealer merged.) Yamaha and Denon both make excellent receivers, but have distinctly different "personalities" as companies when it comes to marketing. Yamaha has its own odd way of marketing which is more traditional than Denon's way. It is easy to see how many people who are into computers like Denon products. They often go online to look up specs and high tech digital features, since that is what they understand from the computer world. Denon caters to this by listing technical specs in large numbers. Yamaha's website is difficult to navigate, and their listing of specifications is pretty spare by comparison. Denon tells you about every whizbang circuit they use, and I get people throwing this stuff in my face all the time, saying "yeah but does Yamaha have this?" Sorry, but it gets really old. Yamaha did not choose to participate in the THX certification process for most of the reasons I listed above. They were, however, one of the first companies to put 5 channels of equal high current power into their mainstream receivers, and continue to be the best, most versatile, and robust solution for most custom installations and semi-serious home theaters, in my humble opinion. (If you want to know what really serious home theaters are, they involve separates and a dedicated room, for starters.) By the way, if you think Yamaha's marketing is conservative, look at some of the real high end folks. Try to find this technical stuff on Linn's website, for instance. The best example I could give you is Rolls Royce. For years they wouldn't even tell you the horsepower rating on their cars! If you asked, the answer would be "adequate."

    So I'm really not going to waste my breath trying to sell Yamaha to anyone here, since I can't produce the specs to "prove" the worth of their products. Just go by whatever method most pleases you to pick out your equipment.

  • #2
    I think another point to what Chuck is saying here which should be considered... Yamaha makes musical instruments... Do they have specs? Nope... but are amired by virtually every musician in the world for their quality.

    Denon does not. They make audio electronics.

    When compararing audio equipment most will toss around specs like 120dB S/N ratio (A weighted (and if you knew what the A wieghting was you would immediately toss that out the window in the majority of cases)) or THD being 0.00000002%... it's been proven time and time again that anything below 0.1% is virtually inaudible to the human ear or an AMP has X amount of watts into 8 ohms/channel... speakers are Dynamic... very highly so... not a simple resistance load... etc...

    Point to be taken here is this... specs do help in refining your search... but only to a point... the room where this all is to be listened to and the type/placement of the speakers has a much more profound effect on the overall than any spec can prove it's sonic superiority.

    Bottom line... you can dazzle them with an over abundance of specs, but mostly what you are getting is baffling with technobabble BS

    Cheers Chuck!
    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss

    "Always do good. It will gratify some and astonish the rest." ~Mark Twain

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    • #3
      THX Certification is *still* good, you just have to know which *one*. They have created several levels, of which I remember THX Select and THX Ultra. THX Ultra is the top-of-the-line one that use to be the standard. All the new ones they put in place are just so that they can cash in on all the consumers cheaping out on audio equipment.

      Bottom line, THX Ultra is not a buzzword, and definately not a waste of money. (Assuming you're willing to spend ~$1000+ on a receiever)

      As for choosing a mainstream receiver, I recommend listening to Onkyo's. I've had great results from them in the reproduction of sound close to its "true" nature. (subjective) However, this is just a mainstream product. There are plenty of high-end receiver that you can drop the cost of a KIA on.

      My bottom line: don't listen to any recommendations on purchases, just on what to demo/listen to. Everyone has different preferences, so it will have to be a judgement call by the one spending the money.

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      • #4
        hmmmm...

        THX:

        Like isochar said, there are verious layers these days. Standard THX, THX Ultra and THX Ultra 2. Usually, most mainstream home theater stuff will almost always be THX certified. THe exception being the true audiophile makers. They don't seem to care about any type of certification since thier stuff is usually better than any THX certified product. An example being my new Rotel RB-1080 amp. It's THX Ultra 2 certified and a very musical and theatrical amp. I didn't really care about the THX, it just was.

        Denon

        Denon's sound good. Yahmaha's sound more musical. When you upgrade to a true power amp, the Denon makes a better sound processor because of all it's fun toys. Thus the Denon. The main problem in may area is that the only people that sell Yahmaha don't sell B&W's too

        The Rotel RB-1080 is a wonder amp. It drives the B&W CDM 9NT's like they were made for each other. And my Denon makes a great pre-amp, processor and tuner. Now...if I can fix my dirty AC and grounding problems to get the hum out of the speakers, I'll be set!!

        Jammrock
        “Inside every sane person there’s a madman struggling to get out”
        –The Light Fantastic, Terry Pratchett

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        • #5
          Did some research... didn't know that there was a level above Ultra. There are currently three levels of THX:

          1. THX Select (el-cheapo)
          2. THX Ultra (the "traditional" THX standard)
          3. THX EX (the schiznit)

          A product doesn't necessarily have to have THX Ultra/EX certification to be good. However, a product that has the certification for Ultra/EX will be some fairly high-end (which equals good) audio equipment.
          Last edited by isochar; 26 December 2001, 13:59.

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          • #6
            So Jammrock, it sounds like you got your speaker repaired and a receiver with the pre-outs working properly...??...

            The only power problem I have is that the Amp has to be turned on before any of my other equipment and it sucks enough current to make all the lights in the house flicker when first powered on.....LOL

            Looks like KvH is one of the few dealers with both Yamaha and B&W products.

            Paul
            "Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself"

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            • #7
              Yes he did... now the only thing left to resolve is the piss poor house wiring... aka ground... resolved most of it so far.. but it still there, tho much better now

              Just kick in phase two Jammy and it'll be licked
              "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss

              "Always do good. It will gratify some and astonish the rest." ~Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, I got a tweeter. Took one from the shop over the long break and they're going to take the new one when it comes in. My speakers are whole once again!

                The Rotel RB-1080 is one sweet sounding machine! Very detailed playback, plenty of power and very smooth sounding all around. I picked up a pair of Audio Quest Diamondback interconnects to connect the Denon and Rotel and I auditioned the new Rotel RCD-1070 (the replacement for the RCD-971). That CD player kicks some serious ol' booty! Regular CD's sound better on my system than DVD playback!!!! Unfortuantely I may not be able to get it since ...

                Power problems. Switching over to a pre-amp to amp setup has revealed that the power in my duplex sucks!! Greebe and I have been trying to get the problem fixed. We are pretty sure we got the grounding problem mostly taken care of, but the AC may be polluted pretty badly. I'm gonna audition a good power line filter and see if that cleans it up. If not then I'm pretty sure I've got a ground loop somewhere in the DUPLEX...crap-o...

                Jammrock
                “Inside every sane person there’s a madman struggling to get out”
                –The Light Fantastic, Terry Pratchett

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                • #9
                  Actually, there are a lot of dealers selling both B&W and Yamaha. One of the big custom install houses in Austin does both, Hillcrest in Dallas does both, I think Bjorn's in San Antonio does both.. as a matter of fact, the two use the same rep firm (at least here in Texas).

                  Something new we are getting into is the Anthem and Paradigm lines. Anthem sells amplifiers and preamp/processors that are a super value. Paradigm sells very good speakers that are less expensive than the B&Ws. The Anthem pre/pro has gotten excellent reviews, being a great value at its price point of $3199. You guys with the Denons and Rotel amps might consider it as your next upgrade. A serious preamp/processor makes a big difference in the amount of detail you hear in movies. When my friend and I hooked up his Lexicon MC12B and played the Matrix, we heard all sorts of things we had never even noticed before. It was like a whole new movie. He is now re-watching a bunch of his DVDs and it's like seeing them for the first time again. Admittedly, though, the Lexicon is in a different class. This is the cream of the crop for pre/pros and costs $11,000.00. The sound justifies the cost though.. it really makes a difference.

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                  • #10
                    #@$$

                    Grrrrrrr.
                    /me needs to make some more dough so I can afford to buy good stuff. It is sooooo frustrating to be an audiophile without an adequate supply of cash to feed the habit. I have therefore been trying to convince myself that the klipsch's are really good (Mark you I think they're excellent computer speakers) oh well. Hopefully things will soon take a turn for the better.
                    [size=1]D3/\/7YCR4CK3R
                    Ryzen: Asrock B450M Pro4, Ryzen 5 2600, 16GB G-Skill Ripjaws V Series DDR4 PC4-25600 RAM, 1TB Seagate SATA HD, 256GB myDigital PCIEx4 M.2 SSD, Samsung LI24T350FHNXZA 24" HDMI LED monitor, Klipsch Promedia 4.2 400, Win11
                    Home: M1 Mac Mini 8GB 256GB
                    Surgery: HP Stream 200-010 Mini Desktop,Intel Celeron 2957U Processor, 6 GB RAM, ADATA 128 GB SSD, Win 10 home ver 22H2
                    Frontdesk: Beelink T4 8GB

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                    • #11
                      Don't feel bad Denty.. I've dropped well over $20k in my day into prime audiophile gear... just to hear all the crap in virtually every recording made... tho I'm not into it now as I once was, I'm considering it again in the near future... it'll just be one piece at a time (speakers first ... and of course many of what I'll have will either be custom modified or made by yours truely
                      "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss

                      "Always do good. It will gratify some and astonish the rest." ~Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, I went for a much simpler route.
                        I have a Yamaha HTR5170 connected to a couple of Wharfedales OneSix. I use it to listen to the radio and to mp's/sounds from my computer (SB LIVE! Platinum, through Opdical SPDIF)
                        The overall cost was around 1200$ (Here in Israel things costs way more than in Europe of the U.S.)
                        Now, this might hurt some peoples feelings but:

                        I've been in a specially prepared music room with true Audiophile grade equipment with a Theta preamp, Nakamichi power amp, Folkaudio speakers the size of coffins and some other high end stuff, the overall cost of the gear was a few 10s of thousands of dollars.
                        Frankly, my el-cheapo setup in my room (compared with the above) sounds almost as good.

                        Last thing before you start flaming me, I have great ears, so good that I had to take my Wharfedales for re adjustments twice till they sounded good enough for me while the technician understood my problem but had a hard time hearing it under normal circumstances (I had to provide him a specially made CD with instructions so he could hear the vibrations).

                        If you really want to go high end - stereophile grade, forget about dynamic speeakers, toss out your kilowatt poweramp and buy a set of Electrostatics and a true highend 60W amp with some real kickass stereophile grade preamp.

                        Oh yes, and check www.audioreview.com

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                        • #13
                          Folkaudio speakers
                          If you mean Polk Audio , they do make some of the worst sounding big expensive speakers out there, while Wharfedale makes some of the best inexpensive small speakers.

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                          • #14
                            I was feeling left out of all these threads, so last week I finally went and bought a new pair of speakers. I got these: B&W DM601 S2. I figure they'll make superb bookshelf speakers for now, and once I get a nice permanent place of residence (renting now), I'll move them to the back and get some 604s for the front, as well as some kind of center and sub.

                            Currently though, these will do, as they are amazing considering their size and price. In this room I don't even need a sub, as they produce a stunning amount of bass from those little 6.5" kevlar drivers
                            Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard coated bastards with bastard filling. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive, bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine. -- Dr. Perry Cox

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                            • #15
                              It's a shame....

                              I am on the wish shopping list here....WISH I had cash, WISH I could justify spending mucho $$ on some decent speakers.....as my stereo receiver is a Pioneer VSX-3600, Pioneer tape deck CT-980W dual tapes, Onkyo DX-C300 6 disk CD changer, a TEAC EQA-5 2 channel EQ on (cringes) Fisher STV-870 3 way (supposedly) speakers....

                              so as you rich folks upgrade, I'll take leftover speakers


                              -pickle
                              Better to let one think you are a fool, than speak and prove it


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