Best format for video-storage? MPEG2 or MPEG4?

[OleJuul]

Which format is the best to store videos? (When I don't need to edit them anymore)

I've heard that the new mpeg-4 is much better than mpeg-1, but what about mpeg-2? It is my impression that mpeg-2 is better at high bitrates...?

Any comments very welcome.

[Fred H]

I agree...
I'm just experimenting with it, I'm not an expert and I haven't any DVD, so I try to archive my videos on CD-R, and VCR.
I found that the MPEG2 (PAL 704x576 with me)has near the captured MJPEG quality but about 1/7 of the size of the .avi.
Tried the MPEG4 v3 but I have not enough CPU resurces for this (AMD K/2-400 + 64 Mb)
I also tried to revert some MPEG2 files to MJPEG-.avi. It works, BUT the quality is not the best...
The playback of the MPEG2 video from CD-R (32x NEC) it smooth, but not the MPEG4.
I tried to play back MPEG2 files on my wifes computer (P133 32 Mb and S3 graph-card with only 2megs (!) it works, but someone at this forum reported problems with play back on a friends computer.
Let the experts confirm it or maybe not

[RBryant]

I would say the new MPEG4-base DivX codec is probably the best. I fit 160 mins on one CD-R. The quality is by far the biggest bang for the byte.

Garrett

[Fred H]

RBryant,
would you, please tell me about the settings for creating the MPEG4 AND which ver. AND where to download the latest codec ( mpg4c32.dll ?) I've got VERY jerky playbacks with the MPEG4.
I've read somewhere that just the MPEG4 is very CPU intensive. Is ir right? What CPU are you using? How much RAM, HDD etc?

[Fred H]

I try and try and try this codecs, but I'm not convinced (yet ?) about the MPEG4's supperior quality over the MPEG2's.
All of you are talking about 352x240 (or PAL 352x288) resolution. It's okay for VHS, but what about the 704x576 (PAL) resolution in MPEG2 vs MPEG4 ?
Usually I'm capturing Matrox MJPEG 704x576 with the PC-VCR (Marvel G400,)edit the clips in MSP and create the different fileformates with the MSP6.
AVI_IO doesn't work 100% for me. MSP Capture is difficult to configure. All of them kick off the PC-VCR sync or the red color for my TV (but not on the monitor). Am I wrong ?

[Walrus]

It depends a lot on what your target is.
Generally I have found Microsoft MPEG-4/divx (which are really the same thing) to provide tighter compression than the rest, though at the expense of VERY annoying compatiblity issues (esp with MPEG-4 v3) and much higher CPU demands than the rest. MPEG-2 at high datarates gives a nearly perfect reproduction of the source video, while MPEG-1 at quarter resolution will play on any machine that's at least 200 mhz, and does not use as much space as MPEG-2. For most of my projects, I store in VCD complaint MPEG-1, unless I have a very compelling reason to store higher resolution. It gives me max compatibility, good image quality if I process the video properly, and it allows me in theory to be able to play the video on some stand-alone dvd players, and it has reasonable space requirements. I gave up on the MPEG4/divx codecs months ago. (though I may start using them as capture codecs)
However, as everyone else here has pointed out, your mileage may vary.

[Brian Ellis]

There is no "best" codec. They all have advantages and disadvantages. I avoid MPEG4 because Microsoft have buggered things up with their three non-standard codecs. If you are using a Marvel or RR, I'd tend to archive in MJPEG, especially if you are likely to want to make another VHS tape in the future. I haven't yet tried MPEG2, which is undoubtedly better quality but larger file size than MPEG1 and probably better than MPEG4 (even standard), although the latter will give smaller files. I have found that the Indeo 5 series codec gives an excellent compromise of quality and file size.

------------------
Brian (the terrible)

[Fred H]

Best format, again...
I made some short klips to try in different MPEG2 and MPEG4 and different resolutions to show them on a different computer.
Ofcourse, they play fine on MINE machine, but not on others (eg. with an Asus 3800+MPEG cards or my wifes old P133 etc )
Can anybody advice how to show my MPEG2 and MPEG4 files on different computers.
My videos are created with MSP6.


[This message has been edited by Fred H (edited 01 April 2000).]

[Walrus]

Fred H: Generally MPEG-4 requires more CPU power to decode, which explains why the P133 is inadequate to decode. (I actually figured out for full-res 30frame/sec MPEG-4 streams, my dual-processor Celeron 550 can only barely play them back in realtime)
As for MPEG-1 vs 2, I assume you are just encoding 320x240 or something like that. At those resolutions, the actual difference between MPEG-1 & 2 is virtually non-existant (in terms of compression, CPU power, quality, etc). In fact, I think the algorithms for the two are almost exactly the same at those resolutions. In which case I'd recommend MPEG-1 since everyone can play it. With MPEG-2 you need to download a special MPEG-2 player or have DVD software. MPEG-1 is supported by Real Video (I think), Media Player and I think Quicktime.

[Fred H]

Walrus, thanks.
Yes, I admit that the P133 is too slow to show MPEGs or even .AVIs. I tried it not for speed but to test for at least one poor little image. The MediaPlayer on the P133 refused all my files, with the error messages something like "...decompressor not present..."
My son in low tested the files on his Celeron 450 + Asus V3800 + DVD + MPEG card (don't know which type) He couldn't play the files. Not the MPEG2 nor the MPEG4v3 files, in different resolutions 352x288 PAL and 704x576 PAL. He's got the files on a CD-RW, then made a copy to his own HDD. I mean, it's not the prblem.
Well, maybe he made some mistakes, maybe hi hasn't the codecs, I don't know. (He informed me by phone about it)
The point is: can I, or can I take the risk to archive my video files on CD-R with mainly MPEG2 704x576 PAL? How could I show the files 5-10 years later if they aren't readeble now on a different machine?
Of course, it's not sure that 5-10 years later I'll own any Marvel G400 and then even the Marox MJPEG files vill be unusable.
I do not need to develope this here & now, BUT what should I answer to my son in low? Why is he unable to show MY files but his own ?
I don't dare to mention here, that my other soninlow just installed his new P3-600 etc...but he didn't tested the files, yet.

Oooaaahhhh, my poor old man, with an old AMD K6/2-400, a Marvel G400.... and a lot of young people around...

Well, I'll stay with MPEG2 in 704x576 or 356x288 PAL. I've been convinced.

Any more help, please, how to show MPEG2s on other machines?

[This message has been edited by Fred H (edited 01 April 2000).]

[Walrus]

Fred H:
The problems you are having with MPEG-4v3 is exactly why I refuse to use it anymore. Either the sytems you are trying to play back on either don't have a modern build of Media Player, or they have one that is too modern. (Microsoft broke compatibility with AVIs and MPEG-4v3 over a year ago) Either you need to copy the Divx codecs or the old mpg4*.* files onto each machine manually. I got fed up with this a long time ago. Another possible solution is to use MPEG-4v2, which doesn't have these issues, but does poorer motion estimation.
MPEG-2 is tricky right now since support for it is not built into any media player yet... You can purchase a copy of Ligos MPEG-2 player from ligos and include it with the discs so they will playback through media player, or you could try svcd or something and set the discs up for set-top dvd/svcd players.
Again, for distributing files now, VCD is the best trade-off between compatilbity/quality/size as far as I'm concerned.

[Walrus]

Fred H: No problem at all, though I forgot to mention one thing. If a person has a DVD player on their computer (be it software or hardware based), they can probably play the MPEG-2 files straight through that.

[Fred H]

Thanks again, Walrus.
Yes, I dropped the mpeg4. I realized that the MPEG2 is okay for archiving for my files. For distribution I'll go the VCD way. I tested it before, but I was obstinate fixed over the hires, 704x576 PAL.
I realized too, that the 356x288 PAL is good enough for TV/VHS.
The Ligos MPEG2 codec is not a problem for me. It IS built in with MSP6, in my computer, but it is only mine.
So, thanks again for helping, appreciated it

[Fred H]

Yes, Walrus. Thanks.
I know it. He (my son in low) HAS hardware DVD and hardware MPEG decoder card, but of some, for me unknown reason he can't play my mpeg2 file. So I dont't care anymore to test. It works for me.
I am sure he's doing something wrong.
BTW I've got the mpeg4v3 files play on my wifes P133 and 2Mb graph. memo (!) Slowly but they work. The OLD mpg4c32.dll is the solution.
Regards, Fred H.

[Grigory]

Hello all!

I occasionally came back to this forum after a long absence.
After spending a lot of time with different video storage formats and encoding software I have the following results:
1. Mpeg4 codecs may be good for SIF size video at 600-3000 kbit/sec average datarate. The quality may be better than mpeg1/2 for the same bitrate. If you attempt to get "perfect" video with these codecs by increasing the datrate limit, the actual datarate does not every time goes over 3000 kbit in average. At this level, mpeg1 video made by LSX v3 or Panasonic encoder becomes much better. Below 1000 kbit the mpeg4 is a clear winner.
If you try to make full size video with mpeg4 codec, you get two major problems. First is very high demand for the CPU power. I could play 640x480 video at 2000, but not 5000 kbit/sec on celeron 500. The performance also depends on video card, and video card drivers.
Second is the absence of field-based encoding support. For my PAL videos, I could make something like 480x576 mpeg4 video that was played without stops on PC monitor. However, if your target is TV screen, you cannot get field-based playback with G400 in DVDMAX mode. The field order is incorrect, but even in the case you revert it while making movie, the frame interval variations of 1-5 msec make this field order changing randomly from normal to reversed while playing in DVDMAX mode.
Since there are NO plans to make hardware mpeg4 decoder which is able to solve this problem, you are limited to frame based video clips with mpeg4.
DivX codec is available now and you easily can place this codec setup files on you CD rom disk. So, you can use the codec, but for mpeg1-like movies.
2. I tried to make the video files with 5000 or more kbits/sec from the CDRW disks on several CD ROM or DVD ROM drives without success. For whatever reason, sustained datarate that is possible to get from the CDRW media is about 4x speed CD ROM only. So, to store playable movies you have to use ordinary CD-R media.
3. Mpeg 1 / 2. As far as I could see, ALL software encoders have the SAME compression algorithm for both formats. The differences are in field-based encoding possibility for mpeg2 format, which is supported not by all encoders. However, frame based and field based encoding gave me the same picture quality and datarate, even with VBR encoding at fixed quantization values. So, field-based encoding is only useful when you need to set correct field order in mpeg stream, if the field order in the input frames does not match the field order of hardware decoder. The example is LSX encoder in PAL, which uses frame based encoding and produces incorrect field order of DV-originated mpeg2 files while playing them with Hollywood+ decoder. This decoder plays any mpeg1/2 stream of full height in field based manner, but has no ability to adjust the field order. I tried to make mpeg1 and mpeg2 files using the same encoding parameters with all available encoders that support both formats. For full height video, the elementary video streams had SAME quality and size, even in the case of variable bitrate encoding schemes. For LSX, the encoding parameters even do not change if you set them at first for mpeg2, and then switch to mpeg1 on the main program window! This means that everything, except some headers and multiplexing technique, remains the same in the video encoding itself.
4. You can make mpeg1 video stream and then multiplex it into mpeg2 stream, if you want to get mpeg2 video for some reason. This results in: a) inability to play the file with standard mediaplayer; b) severe performance drop in comparison with mpeg1 @ windows mediaplayer c) field order reversal on playback with H+ hardware decoder. There are no advantages.
5. For whatever reason, H+ card plays mpeg1 and mpeg2 files of full height, made with the same encoding parameters, and from the same DV movie, with opposite field orders. The field order is correct for Panasonic encoder mpeg1 fiels of full height, and for LSX fiels too. Another encoders were not tested, because these two seem to be the best and both support dual processor (true multithreaded) encoding.
6. Finally, I switched to make mpeg1 files of 576 height, and 480-720 pixels width at 3000-6000 kbit/sec datarate with Panasonic encoder. There is one trick that allows to escape green flashes on H+ encoder output for mpeg1 fiels. If you make default IBBP… mpeg1 movie, the encoder can play it only if the frame width in the movie is 442 or less pixels. Otherwize you get green flashes on TV output. To escape this, use IBPBP… encoding of any GOP size. The same effect is present with LSX mpeg1 files too. However, with mpeg2 movies I could use normal IBBP.. scheme successfully.
7. Quality and speed. Both Panasonic and LSX encoders are fast. However, Panasonic is better suited for encoding because it already has Premiere plugin, and supports internal resizing of frames. For full size video, TURN OFF any built-in filtering for any encoder, otherwize you get mixed fields and strange looking TV video. For LSX I got good results only with very slow encoding mode, which is slower than Panasonic encoder on my dual Celeron 510 PC. LSX can produce an effect of thin "oil film" over the screen even for very high bitrates. This is visible on scenes with fast motion and background like the clean blue sky. Panasonic encoder tends to decrease the crispness slightly, because of some internal filtering. The LSX pictures may be sharper, but contain some artefacts near the edges, Panasonic pictures are smoother and have less distortions in these places. Panasonic encoder can produce arbitrary width videos (must multiples of 16, of course) which makes it very good for VHS-originated videos. The movies with 480x576x25 and 2700-3000 kbit/sec datarate are looking very good on TV (SVCD encoding parameters, but without explicit SVCD mpeg2 words). You cannot make similar movies with LSX easily.

An finally, my mpeg1 files are played well with H+ and mediaplayer, I do not need any other software player, full of bugs. Even narrowed movies are easy to play: you can use mplayer.exe program from Windows directory This MCI player can play mpeg1 files in resizable window.
If I decide to make mpeg2 from mpeg1, I always can demultiplex mpeg1 and then multiplex elementary streams into mpeg2 stream.

Grigory