Joel's Islam questions answered

[Wombat]

I'll take the more personal stuff offline, but it seems that there is interest in these questions being publically answered:

<i>If that is the case then why do they not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God instead of just another prophet?? </i>

Just as the God of the New Testament is so different from the God of the Old Testament, the Koran supercedes both for Muslims. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was an embodiment of God. They believe in the virgin birth, and immaculate conception. They don't believe that Jesus was an embodiment of God on earth.

<I>Why do they say that we worship multiple Gods because we believe in the Trinity which is expressed many times in the Bible?? </I>
My friend didn't have anything to say about a "Christian polytheism". I'll ask more of him later. But the above answer answers why Muslims don't hold the Trinity.

<I>Why do they not believe that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross and then rose again on the thrid day??? </I>
Muslims believe that Christ never died. Ever. They believe that God made Judas look like Jesus, and that Judas died on the cross. Jesus was brought into heaven. However, they do not believe that he is dead. All people die, and all the prophets (including Mohammed) died and were accepted to heaven. Jesus <I>lives</I> in heaven, and God will send him down for the Resurrection, and Jesus will preside at the Judgement.

<I>Why do they then not following the Ten Commandments?</I>

My friend said that you were misinformed. Muslims believe in and practice the Ten Commandments.

<I>Why do they not also use the Bible in their worship services??? </I>

My friend said that you are also misinformed here. On Friday services (the Muslim day of worship), the sermons sometimes include quotes and discussions from the Bible. But the daily prayers are from Mohammed/the Koran.


Muslims do not advocate or support the killing of innocents, something that was also mentioned. Nor is death in war automatic salvation. There are stories (I will try to find the actual transcription) of "martyrs" being rejected by God at the gates of heaven.

Also, in my own browsing I came across this Temple University site, which has some handy links to relevent verses on warfare and martyrdom.

http://isc.temple.edu/pericles/warfare.htm

[Kaj]

Very interesting; thanks for sharing this with us.

[The PIT]

Most of that I agree with. However again we wander into the different translations of the Koran.
The copy I got certainly does say fight the non believers. It then depends on the reader to translate whether this means by Violence or by peaceful means say by coverting them to islam.
Another good quote is thy shalt not Kill which is then followed by unless it's justified. Who says whats justified or not.
It also says a lot of other things I haven't yet finnished reading it got other things to do. I've already seen alternat versions of fighting non believers.

[RedRed]

Wombat

Thanks for your informative link and posting.

Pit
I think the Koran is meant to be spoken - As I understand it there is a tradition that the Koran is spoken as the words written may be subject to adulteration in translation - and this is explicit. The only way to truly study it is to learn Arabic.

[KvHagedorn]

Remember the little experiment some of our teachers had us do? They would give a story to one person and have them repeat it. After several repeatings the current story had almost no semblance to the original. Imagine doing this over 200 years in every direction from Mecca before some Caliph had a definitive version written down.

[The PIT]

Pity I can't read the arabic on the page as well.
On a lighter note it's interesting what it says about drinking. Early on it says although drinking can be benifical it's not recommended. Yup we know about that one. Later it says you shouldn't pray when drunk otherwise you may say things you shouldn't. Later it says you shouldn't drink period.
Before anyone points it out I know that Bible also has different translations as well.

[RedRed]

Does anyone have a translation of the Koran, or know where I can get one?

I would really like one in Ebook Format, but HTML or PDF would be fine....
I had a paper interperation of it years ago, but it was written by some Christian fellowship, and was not really what I was after.

Regards
RedRed

[RedRed]

KvHagedorn

As with the bible, there is no truly 'definitive' version written of the koran, the koran was learnt off by heart, I think.

The bible was not written down until many rears after the events they describe. Even the new testament was written years later, mostly by others.

[Joel]

Hey Wombat,

I do appreciate you trying to answer my questions but I'm not the one to get into a theological debate with you. I think I can say safely though, and I'm sure someone here will correct me if I am wrong, but if you take away the Crucifixion, the Death and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ then you are taking away a big part of the foundation of the Christian belief. Plus the Koran gets the Trinity concept all wrong. This website I think can explain that furthur.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html

Pit,

I agree with you. I have read serveral different translations and they all say basically the same thing. Just like with the different translations of the Bible, the words used may be different but the underlying message is the same.

As I understand it there is a tradition that the Koran is spoken as the words written may be subject to adulteration in translation - and this is explicit. The only way to truly study it is to learn Arabic.

That from what I understand is a very old argument and IMO does not hold alot of water. Do you remember playing a game where you had a line or a circle of people and a message was started at one end and was past by word of mouth to the next person and then the next? And how by the time it got to the end of the line or circle the message was totally different than how it started out? Also why would not God want me to understand his message in my native language?? So let me throw a little something else out here to think about. The Koran is one book spoken by one man, you have to remember that Mohammud supposely could not read or write, over the course of 20 some odd years. In comparasion the Bible is a collection of many books written by many different people over the course of 1400 years or better. And you know what is so amazing about that, is the consistency of God's message throughout the Bible. The Koran on the otherhand seems to contradict itself everytime you turn around. This is explained by saying that the later verses abrogate the earlier verses. The question is then which verses came first? There is no chronological order to the Koran. The chapters are arrange largest to smallest. Also the Koran, as we have it today, was complied and written some 200 years after Mohammud died and all previous compulations were destroyed. Whereas the Bible we have today can be verified by Manuscripts that were written hundreds of years before Mohammud. Plus it is a known fact that Mohammud never did meet a true Christian evident by his misconceptions of the Christian belief.

All the above is based on the research I have done so far and this is the way I see things.

Joel

[The PIT]

You should be able to get a copy at any bookshop RedRed. My cost £16.99. You can also try Amazon.com. Looking at amazon you check out reviews and see who the author is.

[The PIT]

Again I can only refer back to the copy I've got but there certainly seems to be change in mood between the different books. There later seems to be a bit of anger against Christians and Jews whether this is poor translation or becuase Mohammad asked Christians and Jews for help and was rejected I can only guess.

[spoogenet]

That from what I understand is a very old argument and IMO does not hold alot of water.

All translated works lose something in the translation. Equally, even if you understand the language being used, languages change with time. Language is inseparable from culture and, unless you truly understand the culture, you will not fully understand the language. Cultures also change with time. Not to mention the inherent ambiguity of the written word and the difficulty in understanding the true meaning (or should I say, intent of the author) versus your interpretted meaning, no matter how good you are with the language.

Also why would not God want me to understand his message in my native language??

Are you saying the Bible should have been written in all languages in the first place? I'm kidding, in case my words do not adequately convey the tone of my humor.

b

[Joel]

Are you saying the Bible should have been written in all languages in the first place? I'm kidding, in case my words do not adequately convey the tone of my humor.

NP. But anyway my question was actually in response to this.

The only way to truly study it is to learn Arabic.

Joel

[Wombat]

Joel,
I'll dig up the link when I get home, but the Bible is much less "verifiable" than the Koran. The Bible wasn't "finalized" until around the 4th century, I believe by Pliny. A lot of "gospels" were rejected or altered. The Gnostic scriptures were completely rejected. Not to mention that the the Old Testament is based largely on Hebrew oral history. A lot of the gospels do not exist in their native language. It is extremely unlikely that Jesus spoke to his followers in Greek, much less Latin.
There are also a number of inconsistencies in early writings. The gospel of John has significant differences (e.g. the telling of the resurrection) from the other apostles. Why didn't Ignacious quote Mark in his writings?

Although Mohammed himself was illiterate, his followers were not. The Koran was recorded from his recitations, and the transcriptions where read back to Mohammed for verification. AbuBakar collected the Koran into its first book form, and Uthman started the first wide distributions and illuminated texts. This was in the middle of the 7th century, NOT 200 years after Mohammed's death.
The text of the surahs has not changed. They have been static since before Mohammed's death. Only their ordering has been changed.





Lots of links to translations of the Koran: http://lexicorient.com/rel_isl_kor.htm

[The PIT]

I reckon Gods taken divine intervention on that link and took the server down.
Oh and I'm pretty sure God can talk any Language he feels like but at the moment he's on temporary vacation and left Satan in charge.