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  • Interesting Canadian Article on US/Bombing

    Ran accross this article from a Canadian newspaper; some interesting stuff here:

    http://www.vancourier.com/102101/opinion/102101op2.html


    OPINION
    U.S. would do well to contemplate the 'why?' question

    By Geoff Olson

    "Why do they hate us so much?" The question was asked by anguished Americans in the days following September's atrocities-but with all the opportunities for analysis in the media feeding frenzy that followed, the attempts to decode the mystery of militant Islamic hatred were few. George W. Bush's answer in his State of the Union address summed up the level of reflection in the beltway and beyond: "They hate us for our freedoms." The question, 'why do they hate us so much?' was apparently rhetorical.

    As I indicated last week, the CIA poured one billion dollars of support into the muijadeen's war against the Soviets (resulting in 50 per cent increase in the global heroin trade). They also backed the most ruthless elements among the fundamentalists, paving the way for 'blowback'-an intelligence term meaning unforeseen fallout from an operation.

    Thousands of rebels from 40 Islamic countries had learned their lesson well: instructed by CIA agents that holy Islam must be protected against foreign devils, they looked around after the Soviet defeat and noted the overwhelming presence of Uncle Sam in the Gulf States, and throughout much of the Mideast. They saw corrupt Arab leaders propped up by oil-hungry western interests, in countries bled dry through bad deals brokered by the 'Great Satan's' proxies, the IMF and World Bank. They saw their nations importing what they regarded as offenses against Islam: alcohol, gambling, and pornographic imagery in advertising and films.

    For bin Ladin, a Saudi, the critical nexus was the establishment in 1990 of permanent American military bases in Saudi Arabia, the location of two of the holiest sites of Islam, Mecca and Medina. Emboldened by victory over one global superpower, the Islamic militants decided the time had come to test another.

    It goes without saying-but it has to be said-that none of this justifies or rationalizes the terrorists' crimes against humanity in the U.S. There is no justification for the death of innocents. Ever. That's just the point.

    Relevent in this instance is the exchange on CBS in 1996 between Madeleine Albright, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, and CBC reporter Lesley Stahl. Albright was maintaining that sanctions had yielded important concessions from Saddam Hussein.

    Stahl: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And you know, is the price worth it?"

    Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but I think the price is worth it."

    They read that exchange in the Middle East. It was infamous all over the Arab world.

    A recent issue of the Wall Street Journal published a survey of opinions of wealthy and privileged Muslims in the Gulf region (bankers, professionals, and businessmen with close links to the U.S.). The Muslim elite expressed displeasure with the U.S. involvement in supporting Israel against Palestine, and supporting repressive anti-democratic regimes throughout the region, as well as the genocidal sanctions on Iraq. Media critic Noam Chomsky, commenting on the Wall Street Journal article, puts it this way: "Among the great majority of people suffering deep poverty and oppression, similar sentiments are far more bitter, and are the source of the fury and despair that has led to suicide bombings, as commonly understood by those who are interested in the facts."

    As the western world prepares for war, it might help to understand how the enemy thinks and the depth of his rage. It might help American leaders to meditate, if only for a moment, on their own culpability in all this. Commenting on a likely attack by coalition forces on the training camps in Afghanistan, Robert Fisk of The Independent asserts there will be no problem targetting the sites. "After all, they were built by the CIA," he dryly notes.

    An expression comes to mind that should be familiar to all "people of the book," Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike: reaping the whirlwind

  • #2
    You know I could easily tear many of the statments made in that to shreads but yet I do (as many do) understand why in part we are percievced as devil incarnate in their eyes.

    But then just look at what these terrorists did while planning this attack out... lots of alcohol, pornography and many other things that is strictly forbiden by their faith. Maybe that's why they did do it... cause the devil told them to! Holy COW Batman they've already become sinners in their own right, so why not crash a couple of planes into buildings to absolve them of such blaphamous indignation?!

    What this article truely is just another Liberal Pacifists view unlike what the REAL World is like... that "Genocide" part does really burn my arse tho. If we were to give aid their war mongering leaders whom would then take from those whom it's intended and use it to rebuild their war machine and then the process starts all over.

    For us to stay out of their affairs and allow them todo as they please effects far more than their little bubble. How should we as a Nation and as a world community appease them, crash planes into our own building? Nuke the countryside? Anthrax the Nations? Now would that make them happy? I'm sure it would.

    The message has been heard before (again and again and again), but we cannot sit idly on the sidelines and allow a few religious fanatics rule the world for that would mean the Dark Ages part II for every Nation.

    You know what, if the religous factor was removed this all boils down to jealous envy, that fugly green monster strikes again.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss

    "Always do good. It will gratify some and astonish the rest." ~Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #3
      But then just look at what these terrorists did while planning this attack out... lots of alcohol, pornography and many other things that is strictly forbiden by their faith.
      Well they had to get ready for what they think Heaven is like. Rivers of wine, 72 virgin females and 28 virgin males, for anyone who dies in the name of Allah.

      Joel
      Last edited by Joel; 9 October 2001, 16:41.
      Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

      www.lp.org

      ******************************

      System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
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      • #4
        Well they had to get ready for what they thing Heaven is like. Rivers of wine, 72 virgin females and 28 virgin males, for anyone who dies in the name of Allah.
        Sure, that's what they were expecting, but were they ever surprised!!
        Lady, people aren't chocolates. Do you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard coated bastards with bastard filling. But I don't find them half as annoying as I find naive, bubble-headed optimists who walk around vomiting sunshine. -- Dr. Perry Cox

        Comment


        • #5
          "Why do they hate us so much?"

          Assuming we now give a damn?

          You and Noam Chomsky and belgianaccount from the Motley Fool board can all go cry your little eyes out and shake your fingers somewhere else. Most Americans are NOT these wimpy, weepy-eyed little girls that you and your terrorist co-sympathisers want to talk about. Do I really give a damn what some rich Arab thinks of us? Some polygamist with 50 children who is filthy rich off the oil he has sold us at top dollar all these years? Don't count on it. If these well-to-do Arabs are so holier than thou, they need to dip into their own coffers and feed these "poor starving Iraqi kids" themselves. The real problem, the real reason those kids are dying (if indeed they are) is that limp-wristed losers like dancray and Noam Chomsky wheedled the United States to death to "Stop slaughtering a retreating army" when we were about to pursue and destroy Saddam and his evil regime ten years ago. Those kids would be just fine today if it were not for people like YOU, dan. Take your insulting hidden agenda elsewhere, if indeed you and Chomsky are even intelligent enough to HAVE an agenda. People here are too smart to buy into your crap. When this becomes relevant someday when we are not at war, it can be discussed. Until then you are nothing but seditionists who want to weaken our will to fight, terrorist sympathisers who should be dealt with accordingly. Noam Chomsky is the Wormtounge of this world.. I cannot imagine another being so utterly foul as he, or more deserving of a sword in the belly.

          Comment


          • #6
            If these well-to-do Arabs are so holier than thou, they need to dip into their own coffers and feed these "poor starving Iraqi kids" themselves.
            Amen to that. But they are not about charity but power.

            Joel
            Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

            www.lp.org

            ******************************

            System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
            OS: Windows XP Pro.
            Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

            Comment


            • #7
              Martyr Saint Victim Suffer Offering

              You seem to forget it is your CIA that helps destabilize countries in the interests of the USA and installs these puppet regimes and supports them with arms(Iran, Iraq, Panama).
              Do you think it will be different when the Northern Alliance gains power? They have their own score to settle with the common people of Afghanistan who are not of their tribe.
              If you are not willing to ask the question of "why" to yourself, you will never win this "war" because you wont know what this war is about.
              Also because Yeman and Sudan are the next countries the US is going after.

              Martyr : One who submits to death rather than forswear his faith

              and yes in this case the Taliban does take a narrow approach to Islam and even pervert it's teachings but a country and its people must have a chance to change and this does not come quickly

              Unfortunately KV I dont think for people like you there will ever come a time when it is relevant to resolve any issue peacefully.

              I support America in its wish to exact revenge for 9/11/01 and it must do so to reaffirm its soverignty and stability. And soon there will come a time when the question "WHY" needs to be answered
              sooner is better than later for everyone, not just America and her Allies.
              DFI NFIIUltra 400
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              msn messenger id: gchisel
              Be aware that a halo has to fall only a few inches to be a noose

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              • #8
                The answer of WHY? is simple.

                It's called ignorance. Pure and simple ignorance.

                This ignorance is present in the US, Canada, UK, France, Germany, the Mideast, etc. It's everywhere. It's the root of almost all violence. The very ones who cry foul at the US for supporting "the wrong side" are the very ones who went right along with the issue in one way or another. Pot. Kettle. Black.

                The fact is that sometimes we ALL have to take sides that are not the best, because sometimes both are rotten as hell, and there really isn't a noble side to take. Stand by and do nothing, get your centers bombed for being isolationists. Go in and do something for the lesser of the two evils to destroy the bigger evil, get your centers bombed for supporting the wrong side.

                I say all ignorant people should be isolated. Only then can we begin to imagine peace.

                Rags

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                • #9
                  Ignorance is supposed to be bliss

                  I want my money back
                  DFI NFIIUltra 400
                  756Ram ATI 9550 256mem
                  Lite-On DVDR/RW/DL
                  Windows XP pro
                  msn messenger id: gchisel
                  Be aware that a halo has to fall only a few inches to be a noose

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                  • #10
                    There is one thing that this article failed to mention. That the US has been the biggest supplier of humanitarian aid to that region also.

                    Joel
                    Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                    www.lp.org

                    ******************************

                    System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                    OS: Windows XP Pro.
                    Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

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                    • #11
                      Hate US, love our $$$.

                      Kevin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Unfortunately KV I dont think for people like you there will ever come a time when it is relevant to resolve any issue peacefully.
                        The only way to truly resolve any issue peacefully is to surrender. Is this what "people like you" advocate?

                        The fact is that sometimes we ALL have to take sides that are not the best, because sometimes both are rotten as hell, and there really isn't a noble side to take.
                        Now there is.. OUR side!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          KV you think this is a conventional war? what are you gonna do spend hundreds of billions on cruise missles to destroy a few mud huts and shacks that can be erected someplace else?
                          So you knocked out an aging fleet of mig 23's that the Taliban hasnt used because no-one knows how to fly the damned things, All of thier heavy armour is rusting and they canabalize the disabled ones for parts, I also have serious doubts as to whether or not the SAM sights even worked to begin with.
                          Oh ya the military likes to parade its victories and so far a wood shanty an air field and a SAM site
                          I dont think the American people are getting there money's worth.
                          DFI NFIIUltra 400
                          756Ram ATI 9550 256mem
                          Lite-On DVDR/RW/DL
                          Windows XP pro
                          msn messenger id: gchisel
                          Be aware that a halo has to fall only a few inches to be a noose

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                          • #14
                            I dont think the American people are getting there money's worth.
                            Hell it will save us lots of money in excuvation cost when we go back in there and rebuild the place for the Afghan people.

                            Joel
                            Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                            www.lp.org

                            ******************************

                            System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                            OS: Windows XP Pro.
                            Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              At this point it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, it only matters what people think (contrary to what The Rock would tell us). Whether the US is evil, or whether Osama and the Taliban are evil, only matters within a specific context. Within the US context, it is easy for us to say Osama is evil and he must die. However within his own little world and its context, we are evil and must die. Each side feels justified in its actions.

                              The problem with a situation like this is that each side is the moral hero in his own eyes. Neither will ever give up because he is righteously justified.

                              This is where the revenge war comes in. We are well past the point where it matters who started it. We think Osama started it, with attacks on US embassies and the 911 attacks. He thinks we started it with our involvement in Middle East affairs, etc. Each side points the finger and says "you started it!" IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO STARTED IT, we simply must end it. We have a lot more to lose than the terrorists have to lose. We consider death to be the ultimate price....well, they've already begun paying that price willingly. We have paid it unwillingly.

                              If somebody punches you, the best way to end the conflict isn't just to punch him back. You think "well if I punch him hard enough, then he'll know to leave me alone...." Wrong...if you punch him hard enough, he'll leave you alone for now, but if he feels that YOU started the fight, then he'll want to come back and punch you even harder. You punch him back again, and now you've got a big mess. You hit him so hard he's in the hospital, then his brother comes down and breaks your legs with a baseball bat....now you've got an even bigger problem. The it goes on and on, and now there's a family feud where each family hates the other....etc etc etc.

                              Anyhow, short story long, I think Americans need to ask more than just the question "why?". We need to try to understand why the enemy is attacking us, what led to these events, and what can we do to prevent future attacks. We should act in a civilized manner rather than as a brute. If we know why they hate us, then we can try to convince them that we're not that bad afterall. Perhaps through well-used propaganda, or perhaps by not partaking in the activities that cause others to hate us.

                              Americans tend to feel as though we're justified in everything we do. However our past is just as dark as many other countries'. We have meddled in many situations where it wasn't exactly appropriate to meddle, yet we go in with out military to prevent other nations from doing just the same. That kind of policy gets you in trouble with others eventually. Many people see us as the bully on the block and, while they feel sympathy for what happened on 911, may not be surprised by it either.

                              Note: I'll take constructive criticism, but incessant ranting laced with personal insults is not a civilized means to address an issue.

                              b
                              Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow? But why put off until tomorrow what you can put off altogether?

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