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  • 17 Innocent Americans Dead...

    because our government can't keep it's nose out of other peoples business.

    Joel
    Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

    www.lp.org

    ******************************

    System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
    OS: Windows XP Pro.
    Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

  • #2
    hmmm...? I hate to say it, but I have to disagree with you on this one Joel. I look at what you are saying as we should blame the government because people shouldn't take responsibility for there own actions. Isn't that the message you and others have mentioned here before? that people SHOULD take responsibility for there own actions? The person that died didn't have to join the military. He made a concious decision to join and new the risks involved(maybe not to the full extent, but he knew some risks would be present). Please don't blame our government for this one. It actually saddens me that people are so paranoid that they have to constantly blame the government for so many things. Don't get me wrong, the government is far from perfect but nobody ever mentions the good things. Whether people like it or not, we need programs that help people, we need police and fired departments, we need a military, we need someone to step in and help out in our time of need. I'm all for helping people but I realize the dangers in helping other countries and getting involved in other people's business. I agree that we probably should not have tried to interveen(sp?) on this one, but you can't blame people for trying. I could go on and on, too much to say. We should all get on ICQ sometime and have a constructive discussion about these issues. I know I'd learn alot from most of you. Anyway, enough of this heavy duty crap. It's FRIDAY!!!! Wohooo!!!! BEER TIME!!! Have a good weekend everyone!

    Dave
    Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Helping people is one thing, hand outs is something totally different and that is what most of these government run "help" programs are.

      If those sailors had been there defending the US then that is one thing, but they weren't. Israel has enough military might to handle this one own it's on.

      Others may disagree with me here, but I feel that our government interfers too much in other peoples affairs. Including our own personal lives.

      It's time for our government to start doing it's job as outline in the Constitution and nothing more.

      Joel
      Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

      www.lp.org

      ******************************

      System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
      OS: Windows XP Pro.
      Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

      Comment


      • #4
        I totally agree. The US government was not intended or structered for governing personal lives and choices. This means that the government isn't who we should turn to when our lives aren't going the way we planned. The US constitution says nothing about Uncle Sam being Uncle Sugar or santa clause.

        Rags

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        • #5
          besides, there are enough people right here in the states that need help.
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          • #6
            I knew that I would be the monority here in the forums. Most people that believe in what I believe in won't stand up for what they believe in because they are scared to say what they feel. That is the main problem with the democratic society. Now that I got that out of the way...

            I totally agree with what all of you are saying. We meddle in other peoples affairs way to much. We stand to make a financial gain for most of it so we jump on the bandwagon. I 100% believe that we should take care of ourselves before we start helping other people, but my point is, don't blame the government for the deaths of the soldiers that died in Yenim.

            Dave
            Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Errm, Dave, didn't your government send out that warship to Yemin in the first place?

              If I think I got what you're trying to say is: "Help our people first", then that's what the US Government is trying to do all over the world, with warships of the US in about every port (or close by), standing at the ready to evacuate US citizens, if and when trouble arises.

              The US Government could do it the other way around, and not let US citizens go abroad ever again, thus your ships wouldn't be in other ports than their own, thus only muslims in the US could attack them there.

              Or they could allow US citizens to go abroad, but not help them when trouble arises, thereby leaving behind the Constitution.

              You tell me

              Jord, Dutch.
              Jordâ„¢

              Comment


              • #8
                Jorden,

                You don't have a clue. You can't possibly have a clue because you don't live here.

                That warship was not sent "to evacuate US citizens" and IMO those 17 Americans died unnecesarily due to the actions of our government and they, the government, should be held accountable for it, but they won't. I mean if I was to send my child into a dangerous situation and my child was to get hurt then I would be held accoutable for that. Why not our government?

                What I'm saying is that dying defending your country is one thing, but to die just because your government needs to flex it's muscles is IMO unnecesary. And who's to say for sure which side is responsible for the attack. It could just as well be the side that we are supposely on, to provoke us into attacking their enemies.

                Joel
                Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                www.lp.org

                ******************************

                System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                OS: Windows XP Pro.
                Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I didn't say it was sent there to evacuate people. I said that the US have ships anywhere over the world, in case there should be trouble arising, that they can use it for evacuating US people.

                  My view on things:
                  How innocent are you when you join the navy, or anything else military?

                  "but to die just because your government needs to flex it's muscles is IMO unnecesary."

                  I agree to that. That's why I said that the US'd better not let any of its citizens go abroad, for then you wouldn't need to send your ships after them all over the world.
                  Where does it say that "The US Government will protect it's citizens no matter where they are, at whatever cost" ? (Or something similar).

                  According to the muslim world the US are the aggressors, no matter what you do. You might have the Ayatolla to thank for that, and after that Saddam Husein.

                  Israel is attacking the Palestinians, with 24 attack helicopters they shot about 20 rockets each at 'targets' in Palestine, only because 3 of their soldiers got lynched by a group of angry Palestinians. Sounds like overkill, I know, but they did that. And America, the biggest country in the world (and superpower) didn't object. Which they should have done.

                  When the Serbs were doing these attrocious acts against muslims, the US were the first to send military troops to Yugoslavia, to attack them back. When Israel is doing this, the whole world is shocked, but the US sits by and shakes its head, nothing more. No shouts of protest, nothing. So according to the muslims who are attacked, at that moment attacking anything US is right, right?

                  Either standardize your approach, or don't do a thing at all.
                  /End view.

                  But I do understand it a little, Joel
                  Just read Tom Clancy's "The Sum of all Fears" if you want to understand it a little as well

                  Jord.
                  Jordâ„¢

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And you brought out a good point. Our government has been sticking it's nose into other peoples affairs for so long that it is expect by the rest of the world for us to do so. So basically we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. But at some point, just like a parent has to do with their child, we have got to say NO and allow the rest of the world to take care of it's own problems.

                    I sometimes feel that our government's intervention makes things worse than better.

                    Joel
                    Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                    www.lp.org

                    ******************************

                    System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                    OS: Windows XP Pro.
                    Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

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                    • #11
                      It's time for the American government to stop bailing out the rest of the world with American taxpayers money.

                      Joel
                      Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                      www.lp.org

                      ******************************

                      System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                      OS: Windows XP Pro.
                      Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I obviously see things differently than a lot of you. I'm not going to comment anymore because I always feel like I'm chiping away at friendships I have made here at MURC. One last thing though...ahh, nevermind :\ Drink and be merry

                        Dave
                        Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There is nothing in the Constitution that enforces isolationism either. American foreign policy has evolved considerably since the Spanish-American War. I believe that the harsh lessons learned during the Second World War in particular convinced American politicians of both major parties that the US has a vital role, both political and military, and interests vital to the United States outside of the Americas.

                          This was most evident during the Cold War, and I think we went way to far in sticking our noses in the business of others in our response to the Soviet threat. I think we're a lot less pushy now.

                          Sailors and soldiers are combatants and are not considered innocents. However, this was a cowardly act, and I suspect there will be a vigorous response. I just hope we hit the right targets this time.

                          Paul
                          paulcs@flashcom.net

                          [This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 14 October 2000).]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My question is, How are these foreign countries suppose to learn the value of peace it they never have to suffer the consequence of war because the US either fights it for them or bails them out afterwards?

                            Personally I'm tried of see $5 BILLION taxpayers dollars being doled out in foreign welfare every year. And it keeps going up.

                            Joel
                            Libertarian is still the way to go if we truly want a real change.

                            www.lp.org

                            ******************************

                            System Specs: AMD XP2000+ @1.68GHz(12.5x133), ASUS A7V133-C, 512MB PC133, Matrox Parhelia 128MB, SB Live! 5.1.
                            OS: Windows XP Pro.
                            Monitor: Cornerstone c1025 @ 1280x960 @85Hz.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Do you really think the US would
                              Personally I'm tried of see $5 BILLION taxpayers dollars being doled out in foreign welfare every year. And it keeps going up.
                              if they wouldn't get any better from it? Ask yourself the following question: "Why did the USA enter the Gulf war conflict when Kuweit was invaded, and why didn't they do anything in a lot of African wars? Right, no economical advantage in doing it...

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