Realnetworks and netscape (Aol) do spy on you.

[The PIT]

http://grc.com/downloaders.htm. Follow this link and read all about it.
Out of interest I checked my registry and the settings there so i think it's definatley goodbye netscape now!

[Jorden]

Hmmmm, yeah, and IE doesn't spy on you? Or Windows for that matter?
Let's quit using Windows as well then, shall we

[HollyBerri]

Thanks for the update, The PIT, but I think you are being just a little bit alarmist... of course the setting is there, if you d/l-ed NS, you d/l-ed Smart Download with it, and Smart Download naturally created the setting for itself. I'm sure I could find my NS ID tag in my Registry as well.

But do you actually <u>use</u> Smart Download for anything other than downloading Netscape upgrades? I don't, nor do I use Download Demon to d/l MacAfee virus signature updates, nor RealDownload for anything other than RealPlayer upgrades.

Nothing in the article you linked to suggests that Smart Download, for instance, can monitor a Go!Zilla or GetRight d/l. And we all hope that if you have the full registered versions of these, and of your FTP software, with all the "automatically check for updates", and "channel bars" turned off, you have reduced the ability of such programs to send info back to parties unknown.

But let's get real. You're connecting electronically to other computers, at a great distance, through some type of telephone/wired connection; there's about a trillion ways that the connection can be logged and monitored. And there's a lot of people/organizations/businesses who have a reason to want to know the details-- many with a fairly reasonable cause.

Privacy as we knew it in the past is really no longer possible.... and the fact that we may not like that is not relevant, if we want the benefits that the Internet brings us.

Maybe we might as well get used to it, not complain about it.

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Holly

[Greebe]

From the Langa list (www.langa.com)

5) What Steve Didn't Mention...

Steve Gibson didn't focus on this in the item above, but note that the
preferred/default method for upgrading all Netscape browsers also is via
Netscape Smart Download.

This means *all users of Netscape browsers* will end up in the AOL
download-tracking database.

Worse, to use Smart Download, you have to register at the NetCenter site--
- so AOL/Netscape will have your name, email, and other personal info on
file. This means they can (if they choose) associate your downloads with
*you* individually and specifically, and not just with some arbitrary
machine-generated ID.

This is so wrong it's beyond words. Alas, it's also very, very typical of
AOL's abusive approach to end-users; seeing them only as passive targets
for advertising. Sigh.

[spoogenet]

There are lots of ways computer connections can be logged, and there are lots of reasons for this. Just like there are many ways and many reasons that you might follow somebody around, watch every store they go into, and take pictures of them the whole time. These aren't exactly related, but at the same time they are, in principle.

There isn't necessarily anything innately wrong with tracking downloads of customers. There are many valid reasons to do so, and the information can certainly be used to make for a more valuable user experience. However the strong possibility also exists for this information to be used negatively.

I think what's important in the whole matter is whether or not the consumer is:
1. aware that such tracking is taking place, and aware of what data is being collected.
2. has the option to participate in such data collection.

While #2 isn't as important when you have the choice to just not use the software, I think #1 is very important. Companies should be responsible for notifying customers when data is being collected that could possibly used to adversely affect the customer.

Data mining is becoming an increasingly popular and valuable tool for businesses. While it can be expensive and time consuming, its uses are far ranging.

I don't advocate suing companies just because they collect information, I just think they should tell me when and what they collect. That way I can make the choice of whether to use their software in the first place. Otherwise they're just stalking me. Stalking is illegal, at least in the US.

b

[Jorden]

In a way, coming to the MURC, you're spied upon as well. See that little tag under every post saying IP: Logged?? It's not that Ant will sell your IP address to anyone, but still, you're in a way spied on

Let's quit the MURC then as well? Weren't we screaming murder, murder the past weekend when it didn't work?

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 18 July 2000).]

[HollyBerri]

Steve Gibson didn't focus on this in the item above, but note that the
preferred/default method for upgrading all Netscape browsers also is via
Netscape Smart Download.

This means *all users of Netscape browsers* will end up in the AOL
download-tracking database.

Yes, I said that as well. Smart Download is part of any NS browser d/l... it appears on your Start Menu (main part, as well as in the /Programs/NS Communicator section).

Fine, so NS now knows that I use NS.

Do I have a problem with that? No.

But I still say that I have no reason to think that NS knows anything about any d/l I make with any other d/l manager.

Now, if I right-click a link and choose "Save target as" in either NS or IE, I'm sure that that shows up somewhere that Microsoft or AOL could ferret it out...

Let's go crazy and assume they could even read "filelist.gzl" (the Go!Zilla list of downloaded files, if you didn't choose "remove files from list after successful download" in the preferences) as well.

Fine.... now will someone tell me what difference this makes? So now "they" know where I am, and what I download.

SO WHAT?

Are the secret police going to carry me off in the night for d/l-ing warez, if I did such things ? Will a letter be sent to all Jord's colleagues and clients informing them of his favorite porn sites-- assuming, of course, that he has ever surfed one ?

If the truth of our lives can't stand the light of day, is the problem with the light of day, or with our lives?

-------------------------------
Holly

[Jorden]

I deny everything!!

Jord.

<font size=1>and besides, it's only one porn site</font>

[HollyBerri]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, people, here's the Privacy Statement from Windows Media Player 7, which you must check the box saying you read it before you can install:

Microsoft respects your privacy and designed Windows Media Player to give you control over the transfer of your personal data. The following features of Windows Media Player transmit data with servers on the Internet in order to provide you with full functionality. You may choose to disable any or all of these options after installation. For more information, click the "More Info" button.

Unique Identifier:

The Windows Media Player uses a unique identifier to represent a unique connection to the server. This identifier is necessary to enable services such as pay-per-view. The unique identifier can be turned off in the Options dialog from the Tools menu.

Music License ID:

The Windows Media Player facilitates your purchase music and other media. When you purchase media, you will receive a license with a non-traceable ID. You can disable this feature in the Options dialog from the tools menu under "Attempt to automatically acquire licenses."

Media Library:

The Media Library lists and manages your collection of audio, video, and links to audio and video. This information can be accessed by other applications on your computer and Internet sites. You can control access in the Options dialog box.

CD ID:

When playing an audio CD, Windows Media Player attempts to locate information associated with that CD such as artist name and title of the CD by sending the CD ID to the Internet. You can prevent Windows Media Player from sending the CD ID and locating the information by choosing Work Offline from the File menu.

Cookies:

Windows Media Player uses the Internet as a networking and information source. When accessing the Internet, cookies may be downloaded to your computer. Cookies can be turned off in the Options dialog of Internet Explorer.

Security Upgrade (Individualization):

Some companies are providing licensed audio and video files that may require you to upgrade the security component in the Windows Rights Manager system. To decline the security upgrade, choose Cancel when presented with the Individualization dialog.

Restore Service

Windows Media Player allows you to back up your music Licenses should you need to restore them at a later time. When you restore these licenses, a unique identifier is stored on a server for security purposes. This information is not shared outside of Microsoft. To prevent the creation of this ID, do not click Restore Now on the License Management dialog under the Tools menu.

For more information on these features and Microsoft's privacy policies, please click the "More Info..." button.

Is this the kind of thing you'd like to see in more programs (assuming we believe MS)?

-------------------------
Holly

[paulcs]

If this is all so innocent, why did RealNetworks deny it--again?

Why did they threaten to sue the guy who discovered it?

From what I understand, they are about to issue a statement claiming the collection of data, including your computers name, email address, (*if* you purchased anything from RealMetworks--apparently, a cookie issue) your home address and credit card information, your download history, etc.

There are issues of informed consent here. I know that the MURC is logging my IP address. Also, there isn't much Ant can do with that information. I guess if I really misbehave, he could contact my ISP and get me in trouble.

I suspect Netscape doesn't clearly solicit the informed consent of users because if they stated, "this software will upload personal data, including your name, email address, download history, etc.," potential users would opt out. I think it's sleazy, and I just couldn't imagine Netscape under the old regime doing something like this.

I suspect RealNetworks denies vehemently their software does this, threatens to sue the person who discovered and made public this information, and then backs off and claims it's *a bug* because they are gigantic, completely amoral and out of control, scuzbuckets.

I think they should be dragged to downtown San Jose, horsewhipped, and tossed in the Bay. I'd say toss them in the ocean, but they'd probably make the sharks ill.

That's my two cents.

By the way, is it "scuzbucket" or "scuzzbucket?"

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Rags]

By the way, is it "scuzbucket" or "scuzzbucket?"

I believe it is "Scumbum". Of course, I like Smokey and The Bandit, and Jackie Gleason.

EDIT:
sorry but have to add the pic

End Edit!

Rags

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Partnership for an idiot free America



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 19 July 2000).]

[The PIT]

Well under Media player you can switch the feature off. (Whether switching off the option works or not is another matter).
I was in the process of removing netscape anyway since it always leaking memory and failing to run the latest Java. This just made my mind up.
keeping track of things like Credit card details is a big No No.
Anyway work beckons.

[paulcs]

The credit card stuff is only applicable if you buy something from them.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Jammrock]

This is why I A) download Netsacape from the FTP site under anonymous with a bogus email address, B) Do not allow RealPlayer to update itself or even look for updates, plus I use a bogus email addres with it, too. C) I use GetRight to download almost everything, and since I have a registration code (yes, I bought it almost 2 years ago) I can disable the advertisements and thereby elimnating the spyware.

So I'm fairly well covered.

Jammrock

[SteveC]

Media Library:

The Media Library lists and manages your collection of audio, video, and links to audio and video. This information can be accessed by other applications on your computer and Internet sites.

So - install media player 7, and ANYONE can look at your MP3 collection....

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Cheers,
Steve

"Life is what we make of it, yet most of us just fake"