This is really bothering me. Opinions please...

[Helevitia]

I am probably going to upgrade my computer in the next month or two, but I feel that the choices now are mediocre at best. Here is what I see, please correct me or make comments as needed:

1. Buy Thunderbird or Duron. Good chips but now I have to use VIA or AMD chipset. I feel VIA has to many problems and they still have a lot of stability isues to work out. I don't know, maybe they are all worked out already but I haven't see it yet. The KT133 chipset is slower than the BX contender it seems. I haven't read too much on the new AMD chipset that supports Thunderbird/Duron, how is it?

2. Buy Coppermine/Celeron2. Coppermine is fast but expensive. Celeron2 is only 66MHz compared to Duron's 100MHz FSB(effectively 200MHz) and shows a lead in performace compared to celeron. There worst part about all of this is the BX/815/820 issues. BX is showing faster speeds than both 815 and 820. 815 is, well, slow. 820 sucks because of Rambus.

And to top everything off, the video card market is dominated by Nvidia and I shouldn't even have to mention why I don't want to go that route. I hope Matrox comes out with the G800 sooner than later. What I'll probably end up doing is buying some other video card to tied me over until the G800 comes out
What do all of you think?

Thanks,

Dave

[paulcs]

The Duron is faster than the Celeron II, clock for clock. However, a lot of people have had very good success overclocking the the new Celerons. If you can get one working on a 100 MHz FSB, it should be faster than a Duron with the same rated speed. It depends on your tolerance for this stuff and a little bit of luck.

The new Thunderbirds look very promising, and I want one. I've read that VIA is having some issues with the KT-133 chipset, and there are delays in getting them out to motherboard manufacturers. Reviewers (and Compaq) seem to be getting them, so I'd expect to see motherboards based on the chipset soon.

The "new" AMD 760 chipset has not been released and probably won't be until Q4 of this year. The new Thunderbirds are compatible with the old AMD chipset, the 750. These are Slot A boards and most Thunderbirds and all Durons will have the Socket A form factor. Abit claims to be working on a slocket.

Because the Athlon boards based upon VIA's KX-133 chipset may have compatibility issues with the "Copper" Thunderbirds produced at the Dresden fab, and motherboard manufacturers and retailers have found themselves stuck with hundreds of thousands of motherboards using this technology, AMD has promised to ramp up production of the "aluminum" Athlons fabbed in Austin. It's hard to say how many of these CPU's will make it to the retail market.

SIS, apparently, is having problems with their Athlon chipset and motherboard manufacturers are mad at ALi for never providing fixes for some of their older chipsets. God knows how this will all play out.

The BX chipset seems to be the path of least resistance for a lot of people--in terms of cost, compatibility, and performance--but its lack of true 133 MHz support can be a problem.

Now I hear Toshiba, one of the big RAM manufacturers, has agreed to Rambus's claims that it owns patents on both SDRAM and DDR SDRAM technology, and will start paying Rambus royalties. This might very well drive up the price of non-Rambus solutions, which might complicate the situation further.

I haven't given up hope on the i815/815e chipsets yet. While they might be a little slower than the BX and sometimes the i840 chipsets, they seem to be faster than everything else. When exactly these boards will become available to the DIY market is still a big question.

People have strong opinions about this stuff, and I'm sure you'll be hearing some. I think that all potential solutions are flawed, at best, and that you should assess your needs carefully and consider which flaws are most tolerable to you. You might want to start asking yourself some questions:

Will my videocard run on a 133 MHz FSB.
How long am I willing to wait for KT-133 or i815 motherboards?

Am I willing to deal with some compatibility and peformance issues to get true 133 MHz FSB support?

Am I willing to deal with a Slot form factor solution, despite the fact that it won't be around for very much longer and might be more expensive?

Good luck.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Dr Mordrid]

I'd wait a month or so after the Durons come out.

10 to 1 Intel will move the bus clock on the CeleryII up to 100mhz when the Durons start selling.

Dr. Mordrid

[Himself]

Rambus sucks, Toshiba sucks, they both suck.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/11396.html http://www.rambus.com/general/press_.../pr_061500.htm

[paulcs]

Rambus is the freakin' Antichrist!

I think we should all make a pact. From now on, we should all be really, really rude to Rambus personnel.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 20 June 2000).]

[Compton]

Via sucks too, I've had enough crap from my Apollo Pro133. If you go AMD, make sure you get an AMD chipset and not a damned Via chipset.

[Nuno]

Just a small note about Celeron2/Duron: A Duron 700/200 outperforms a Celeron 2 850/100. Ooops.




[This message has been edited by Nuno (edited 20 June 2000).]

[HedsSpaz]

My personal opionion would be that the AMD Athlon/Thunderbird/Duron route is a good one. For the moment I am very happy with my KX133 based board. Yes it has it's problems, and no I'm not looking forward to playing with things when I upgrade my vid card, but by in large it has been stable.
I would agree with you though that if you wait a month or three you can probably build a far superior system. I have to disagree with Paul on one point though. I think AMD will release their 760 chipset by the end of the summer, they really honestly could be in trouble if they don't. They've established themselves as a legitimate competitor/alternative to Intel. If they want to keep that standing they need a couple of key technolgies in their ring. Namely, SMP, an alternative to RDRAM, and more stability than VIA/SiS/ALi can offer. Maybe this is all just wishful thinking, but I think AMD will provide in time. If not, well, even the KT133 is a better alternative to the KX133 and worth the wait.

My 2c.

Ian

[The PIT]

Wait for the Amd 760. Hopefully you won't need to mess with the shit that most VIa poeple go thourgh.

[merchant2112]

yep wait pickup an amd 760 chip board.

i have a k7system but im going to get a dual board and another cpu maybe 2 cpus it depends on prices. and run a dual k7 on win2k


[This message has been edited by merchant2112 (edited 21 June 2000).]

[Helevitia]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. Now for some counter-questions:

1. Does anyone have any base reason to say that the AMD 760 is worth waiting for or is it one of those 'i have hunch' kind of things?

2. Will Asus be making an AMD 760 based mobo? Or a KT133 for that matter?

3. What's the difference between the 815 and 815e?

4. Why do all via chipsets suck?(I currently use an Asus P5A(ali) and I love the board, never had any real problems. Proably has to do with the fact that it's an Asus).

<sigh> I'm so confused

Dave

[paulcs]

I think there is a perception that AMD has more vested in the success of their Athlon and will therefore work harder to produce quality chipsets and drivers, and to resolve compatibility issues quicker than third party manufacturers.

Asus will be producing a KT133 motherboard. One has to assume they will be producing motherboards based upon AMD's 760 chipset.

The i815 uses the I/O Controller Hub (ICH) while the i815e uses the ICH2. An explanation of the differences can be found here:
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardwar...hipset/5.shtml

In a nutshell, the ICH2 adds ATA-100 support, an integrated LAN connect interface, dual USB controllers, and a Communication and Networking Riser slot (CNR).

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 22 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 22 June 2000).]

[paulcs]

I just changed history because of some embarrassingly awful arithmitic on my part.

My point was, before I started dividing the year into thirds instead quarters, that the various ETA's I've heard for AMD's 760--Q4, September, late summer--can be a matter of weeks, days, minutes in the case of September and "Q4."

I'm going to respectfully disagree with HedsSpaz. I think AMD adopting what I suspect is VIA's approach--"ready, fire, aim"--and getting it out before it is ready would be the real mistake here. This is a really big step (DDR, SMP, etc.), and I personally think another half-baked or really short-term solution would be a mistake.

It's my understanding that the 760 and 770 will be aimed at the performance market. Good. Let VIA have the low end, as they have done a relatively good job there. I think VIA has done a bad job at the high end, and that, I think, is the slack that AMD has to pick up. Given AMD intends to penetrate the server market, stability is an important factor. Early adopters, hobbiests and the DIY market, graphics professionals, and high end gamers require quick and effective resolutions to compatibility issues. Frankly, I don't think VIA is up to the task. I have different expectations of AMD.

There appear to be delays in all DDR chipsets. I just rather AMD get it right the first time out and flat-out punish Intel further for theirs and Rambus's bullying tactics.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Himself]

Is the 760/770 really all that much better than a KT though to justify another price bracket? Unless it is, and AMD is interested in making a large profit from the chipset, they it will compete with VIA by default, IMO.

[merchant2112]

i have a number of reasons that i think the amd chi's 760 770 will be much better than via..

1 the preformance of the irongate chip set vs the via chipset.

2 amds record with past chipsets ("ya i know about that really bad one but hey amd Learned from thier mistake via sure hasn't"

3 via's record with really bad chipsets.

4 amd has a lot rideing on the sucsess of the k7 and although they really dont want to do the cipsets themselfs they will produce a quality product to ensure its continued profits. also they designed the k7 so thiere engineers have a better understanding of how to make the control chips.

my continued 2 coppers (well by now 1.86)

noel