3rd party TV Tuner for a G400

[Livius]

Hi!
Can anybody recommend a good (and compatible) third party TV Tuner for a G400 Max? All I need is fullscreen and PAL.

[Zwisch]

why the rainbow runner G? it works and it's made for matrox cards... why go with 3rd paty? to save a buck or two?

[sabertooth007]

Actually it makes more sense. By buying the rainbow runner series you are locking yourself into having to buy Matrox cards in the future. Yes the Rainbow Runner gives you the best chance of having the fewest conflicts, but after you spend that $1xx amount on the card, and six months down the road you decide you want to switch to another brand, you would have to buy another capture/tv tuner card in addition you would have a rainbow runner that can't be used for anything.

I recommend that people buy a third party solution so that they can enjoy their investment longer than the investment of their video card (6 months if your lucky).

Tim Barnes
President
Barnes and Associates
Matrox Solutions Provider

[Livius]

Hi!
It's tough to say what makes sense and what doesn't. First of all, in a world in which components are becoming obsolete so rapidly it makes MORE sense not to tie 2 parts to one another, so when you upgrade you have to upgrade them both. I love simply Matrox's products but suppose that Matrox will miss the next generation chipset. After all, it has already done that once, before the release of G200. What would you do then if you get a RRG now?
I am not such a 3D addict to automatically exclude the option of simply waiting another cycle for Matrox's chipset. But what if some company really produces a better card? It's no point investing in a Matrox TV Tuner unless you're sure you'll buy Matrox again. I for one can never be sure about something like that, my love for Matrox notwithstanding.
There are a lot of other TV Tuners that are meant as addons (i.e. are not tied to a certain chipset or manufacturer) - but I need one to ork with a PAL standard (D/K if possible) and be available in Europe. Miro, a company specialized in PC video and multimedia solutions, has a TV Tuner but it's pretty expensive and rather poor in terms of features (or that's what some reviewers said). If you have any other suggestions, I'm still waiting.

[Palliator]

I think there are two ways to view this. One, you can go with a "third party" solution like that from Hauppauge, STB, or ATI. There are plenty of good TV tuner cards out there. I've personally had good luck with the Hauppauge WinTV (good software as well). Heck, it even worked in primary surface mode with my old Millennium II. The newer WinTV Theater looks very nice. It not only has Stereo DBX and Dolby Pro Logic support, but a neat wireless IR remote too. As already mentioned, these cards will work with any DirectX compatible video card (most modern video cards now properly support overlay for a full screen window), so your investment in a TV tuner won't be lost when you upgrade to a new card in the future. For the time being, I don't know how these cards work with the G400's dual head (if at all). I've used a WinTV with a multi-monitor setup (primary monitor only), but that really doesn't relate here does it?

Number two, if video capture is something you want to look into, then the RR-G makes sense. None of the TV tuners I've looked at are great at capturing quality video and some are limited to 320x240 in some proprietary AVI format. I think Matrox's PC / VCR Remote, while a little dated, is full featured and gets the job done rather well. It's certainly better than what STB / 3dfx ships with their cards (not even an "always on top" feature!).

Hope this helps a little.

[motub]

Well, it seems obvious that you should not be looking at an internal part...
http://www.usbworkshop.com/php/produ...cat=graphsound
http://www.hauppauge.com/html/usb_data.htm
http://www.hothardware.com/reviews/WinTV-usb.htm

The Hauppauge sounds like the best bet.. it apparently scales with the strength of your video card... sounds like a match made in heaven with the G400..

retailers in Europe: http://www.hauppauge.com/html/buy_euro.htm
http://www.nogatech.com/usb_tv-features.htm
http://www.lifeview.com.tw/li/frame3.htm


Here's some other buying info: http://engine.bottomdollar.com/fasts...rchFor=USB+TV!

The products seem to run from about $100-165 (USD, I guess)
Hope that helps... though I still don't quite understand why, if you hand down, sell off, or otherwise dispose of your older video card when you upgrade, you can't just include the RR-G in the package... but hey, it's your PC...!

-------------------
Holly

[Elvon]

I have a WinTV Radio card, it's very good, you can get it to display on the second head using something like MoreTV or FreeTV. It also has a remote control.

Getting the rainbow runner G sounds like a bad choice. I am not "loyal" to Matrox, I got the card for the features, not the name. If they bought out a Geforce256 that had built in dultihead support and good linux support, I would upgrade.

Holly: Tim is right, 3d accelleration hardware has a life time of about 6 months. Though 2d video cards have a longer life span. I think your critism of Tim was a bit excessive.

I will respond to your points:

1) It uses a techneque called video overlay which alows other bus matering PCI drives to write straight on to the video memory (The G400 supports this). I am not sure what your actual objection was? Did you mean that you think that it would have to use a pass through cable like the Voodoo 2?
It does not not need to, it is all done interially, without involving the CPU, and with negible bandwidth useage of the PCI bus (I have some benchmarking data to prove this) I personally think it's a very elligent solution.

2) I would hope that being a 'Matrox Solution Provider' does not always just giving Matrox the best deal, but giving the customer the best deal! Blindly suggesting Matrox will not always give the customer the best deal.

Here's why:

(i) I can upgrade my G400 drivers to the lastest version. (I am not limited to G-rummer compatible realises)

(ii) I do not need the Capturing and other exended features of the G-runner and neither jugding by he's email does Livius.

(iii) Better linux support.

(iiii) The next Matrox card may not support the rainbow runner G's connection, where as all new cards that I have seen support overlay, and all video cards, old or new, would be able to support primary mode.

Glynn

[motub]

I see your point to some extent, sabretooth007, but I have 2 questions.[list=1][*]What kind of "3rd party solution" are you talking about...? It seems to me that, other than the ATI-TV, say-- which is presumably also a proprietary card--- all TV-tuner add on cards are separate cards using their own slot and a pass-through. What else could they do, after all, since one's Voodoo3 or i740 or even the G400 SH OEM does not have any other way to receive the video data? So basically, you're reopening an objection that the dualhead and RR-G connector features are designed to overcome...? Is there some reason to do that???[*]What makes you say that your vid-card investment will last "6 months if you're lucky"??? My G200 has lasted quite well for 10 months, and I'd be happy to skip this generation of cards and wait for the next before upgrading if I had not received a G400MAX as a gift. I don't know who <u>your</u> clients are, but in my neck of the woods, this very issue is why the vidcard wars are so hotly contested... no one can afford to upgrade every 6 months, so we argue about what will have the most longevity. The only conditions under which a video card has such a short half-life is if you're an fps junkie, and we don't really think much of <u>them</u> around here...[/list=a]

after you spend that $1xx amount on the card, and six months down the road you decide you want to switch to another brand

Your entire post carries this attitude as if a Matrox card will be fine for a short while, but only a short while, and then.... oh <u>I</u> see... did I misunderstand???

Somehow I thought that 'Matrox Solution Provider' meant "we sell solutions to your video problems which are powered by Matrox (because in our educated opinion we find them to be so exemplary we made this effort to recognize/reccomend them particulary, and have them recognize us)". I had not considered that it could mean "we sell Matrox cards, especially to users for whom they are not desgined, because they are expensive... and then sell 'third-party solutions' (or a new video card) to those users when the card does not meet their needs (because we're smarter than they are)".

What was I thinking? Silly me.

--------------
Holly

[This message has been edited by motub (edited 30 October 1999).]

[motub]

Would someone please be so kind as to define the criteria upon which a video card is judged obsolete after 6 months?

Clearly I'm missing it.

---------------------
Holly

[Rags]

I think that the people who are claiming that video cards have a 6 month life cycle are living in the nVidia marketing hype blanket. They believe that since nVidia cannot get their card releases right the first time, that 6 months time span is a necessity. 3dfx, Matrox, ATI, S3 don't mean anything. Just because there are many users that are using their VooDoo 2's, G200's, and RageProTurbo's doesn't mean anything. Just because every other major manufacturer releases roughly a new generation a year means nothing. nVidia seems to be the only one who rushes a card to market, sells it and spends the next 6 months ironing out what it will take to get the current chipset to perform as intended, then release a card that delivers what the first release promised. This is raping the market, in my opinion. I think that they should just spend the extra amount of time necessary to get the part to perform the way it should and then release it when it is ready. NOT the other way around. As far as the RRG goes, I think that it has many advantages and some disadvantages, use whatever boils your pot.

Rags

[Smiff]

"When something better comes out"

[armyworm]

what the heck was that??? man, don't you have anything better to do that post this sort of junk? and sorry, but what's up with this signature you seem to be so proud of... (didn't you realize that you are the only one doing that?)

Ben

[This message has been edited by armyworm (edited 31 October 1999).]

[Smiff]

And that was only the short version

[sabertooth007]

motub (Holly)

I had tried two times to post my message, but my cable service went out so the long message I typed was lost, it took over an hour to compose. I don't feel like spending that much time again, so I will quickly summarize what I had to say.

There are more choices than ATI and Matrox for TV Tuners. It is correct that not all of them are good or compatible. There are sites that deal with that, I won't spend the time here.

You use up a slot with the RRG anyways, and remember this is a simple conumser based product. If you want the ability to do quality MPEG encoding, you need to spend a little more money. If this is what you need it for, I recommend the additional cost. There is a difference in performance and it is important to factor that into your decision. Also don't forget the other options including USB. I have recently tested a USB TV/FM tuner, and it actually was pretty good. Not as great as the Marvel unit, but was a step in the right direction. I am slated to get another unit from a different company to test on Monday. This one I think will be the best one of those I have tested (I am not talking Matrox either).

Also note you don't need to lose the dual head feature by having an add on card. That is correct you won't be able to display on both screens, but in the long run, do you need to have that much going at the same time. If you do hook up a second monitor you can always run a bypass from that second monitor to begin with.

Remember I would never selected a product just because it has tv tuning capability or is made by the same company as my graphics card.

I think the point I was trying to make, as they were asking for input, was that to make sure they are aware that there are alternatives. There are some who will swear by Matrox, and that is their choice. But I feel an obligation to present all options, and not hide behind one name because I think no one else can build anything better. For decades everyone swore by American Cars, now imports are just as good or beter, but this is a different debate, what it amounts to though is that you need to keep an open mind and look at all avenues. If you buy the Rainbow Runner you are putting yourself into a position in the future that when you upgrade, you will have to get another Matrox or the RRG won't work (and there is not guarantee that it will either or that Matrox will still be around - not saying they won't but you should never say anything is 100%, sorry not a perfect world).

The six month figure is a ball park figure. This provides a time reference that one can easily measure. If I used in the future, down the road, eventually, or other terms like those, the time reference means different things to different people. For one person in the future could mean a year, another 2 years, someone else 3 months. 6 months is about the time between releases of cards from different companies. They don't all release at the same time.

I am not saying you have to upgrade every six months. But if you look at the current trend a card you bought six months ago is yesterdays technology now. Is the G200 a good card, yes and no. For most it still is a good choice, but in the long run, it is now surpassed by other chipsets. Not just for FPS (see comment below) but on features, reliability, compatability, and performance. The problem with the G400 is how it has been released. Even the top of the line Max has been hard to get at a fair price. If the card had been delivered as was needed a few months back, then the Max would be the card to beat and developers would be writing more software to take advantage of all the features. Since there is a new card due out from Nvidia (I am not saying who is best, that is for each person to research and decide what they need) on the 1st of November and Voodoo 4 is due out in 2000, and S3 is due out by the end of 99, the G400 is no longer the new kid on the block. It still has a very useful life, but it no longer can maintain its lead, as these new companies will be including features and specs that were developed after the G400 was mftg.

Last time I checked competition was good, it helped to lower cost. Think about the results of the multitude of companies that sold the Voodoo 2 compared to the original Voodoo. Because of so many companies selling the same chipset, the cost tumbled, and made them very affordable in just a few months after their release.

I don't tell or force clients to make a change every six months. This is based strictly on the needs of the user/client. For some they want the bleeding edge of technology and so I recommend what is the best choice at the time. For others they find the current card doesn't meet their needs, and need a new card. A business wants to upgrade their product and so I point them to what they need. But if you look, about every six months (give or take a few) there are new cards with new features. This doesn't mean you should go out and buy a new card everytime there appear. Instead you need to make sure that your card can keep pace with the ever changing graphics market. So if you buy a card strictly due to brand loyalty and their cards don't keep in line with technology, you are wasting your money. Of course not everyone can buy a new card every six months, and I don't encourage that either, as sometimes the changes are not enough to warrant such an upgrade.

I just recommend to clients to pay now rather than later by selecting a card that will meet their needs for at least a year or shorter depending on what they need. The G400 still is a good choice, but in the next few months we will see the advantages start to disappear. The Max won't be the only card with 360 ramdac or 32mb of memory. While they use the Env. Bump, very few titles support it. They also have the dual head feature, once again very little support. When I speak support I mean software. And the term little means under a dozen. If you look at other products that had their own api, those that didn't have title support simply vanished or served no benefit. You can read history to find out what has been failed api's.

Now towards your comments about being a "fps junkie", try to be cool headed about your comments. I never saw anyone on this site where it stated as you said, "....if you're an fps junkie, and we don't really think much of them around here..." Well my first comment is who said that? Where on the site does it mention, this is a simple quote, We cater to slow speed and non-fps junkies. We feel the fps means nothing, and that it is simply a term used by some companies to make themselves sound better. Show me where and I will retract. If you are going to make a statement about someone in the tone you used, either communicate that in private or properly present your comments in a mature and professional manner. I don't think I have in any of my comments thrown mud at anyone. I have provided a organized and fair arguement in regards to the various issues discussed. You also stereo typed me without knowing who I am. If I wanted to I could do the same to you and you might not like what I say, but that is not the purpose of this board. I feel the purpose is to provide discussion of the topic for the forum, for all users no matter how they feel about a product to better inform and provide help to users from all camps, not just one camp or followers. I think it is important to remember to respect others rights and not see the board forums as a way to label, infer, or mud sling against others. As I said I could have done that in some of my other messages, but I see no gain from such statements.

I don't beleive that fps is the end all of be all. I do feel that you need to factor that into the equation for your selection. Does that mean I think the fastest card is the best, no? I know that there is a card out there (you can deduce which one I am talking about) that is considered the speed demon in most areas. But look at what you give up for speed, AGP support, memory, Graphics performance and quality, and textures. Matrox has the best Visual quality, and even the older Mystique and Mystique 220 (not G200) offer the best visual next to the current Matrox cards, but they lack features, performance, and speed that make other cards better. You need to balance your choices. Remember the human eye can only register 30fps. So just because you game does 1000fps it doesn't make it any better than a game that does 100fps. I look at the card as a whole, with fps only being used as a basis to see how increases in resolution and color affect applications. I also like to make sure I have some cushion in fps over 30. I don't need 200 fps, but if I had to choose between two cards, with all the same benefits, but one had 50fps and the other 35, I would choose the 50. Not because it has the fastest fps, but that it provides a margin so that if the game slows down due to cpu utilization or other issues, that I don't below 30fps. Now if the 50 has less features but the 35 has all the best features, I would probably go with the 35fps card. What if it was 25fps versus 50fps? It would be hard to say. If the 25fps had all the features I wanted compared to the 50fps card, I would have to make a choice.

So in the future I would ask you please not to jump to any conclusions or label me a certain type just because of my comments.

Also the switch of six months for Matrox is not saying they fail or don't work after six months, but it is once again an attempt to give a general reference of time. Is the G400 Max better now than it was six months ago. This is all based on how you to see the card.

That is why I am open minded and don't fly only one flag. I believe in being honest. If I feel there is a better option out there for my client, I won't be so close to other options that I end up hurting my client due to my restrictions or beliefs. Not getting into a religious debate, but all faiths have their own belief, and most don't look down on any religion that isn't the same faith. They accept outside choices and respect the faith of others.

I am not saying you are saying I am close minded, it is just that you need to understand that I am not going to tell you a statement of what I like and not back it up with something. If 3dfx makes a good card I will say so, if Matrox, I will say Matrox. I am not one particular brand loyal. With bread do you choose only one company, or do you keep yourself open to other choices. Okay maybe Wonderbread has the best taste, and that suits your need, but maybe someone else likes Roman Meal bread. So it is all based on your taste. With Graphic Cards you also need to take this approach. Of course a company who has provided good cards in the past for you are the ones you look to first when you decide to buy a new card, but that doesn't mean that every card they put out is the best just because of the brand.

Also Matrox Solutions Provider doesn't mean that I provide Matrox Solutions Only. Yes I do promote Matrox products for most of my clients needs, but when the needs can't be met by a Matrox card I do offer choices. So once again you were labeling or misunderstanding my comments. I never as you said "...sell Matrox cards, especially to users for whom they are not designed [for] because they are too expensive..and then sell 'third-party' solutions to those users when the card does not meet their needs (because we're smarter than they are)

I didn't appreciate that. I never force a customer to select one card. I never sell a card that I don't recommend. I don't promote a product just because it won't meet their needs. I also don't promote a product strictly on price, as this is not the whole picture.

I have never said I am smarter than anyone, not even my clients. I am not perfect, and I have just as much rights to my opinions as you are. Look at software review. Never take the word of one review as representing your view on the product. Why? Well what you think is important they might not. They might dislike how something works, but for you that is great. You might consider something not important, they might.

Remeber, without mud-slinging or name calling, the job of a consultant is to advise using the expertise to provide information that those who don't specialize in that field don't have the time to learn or acquire. If my clients knew the graphics card they want they wouldn't seek out my assistance. If they ask I provide the best answer based on my knowledge, not based on brand loyalty or alleigance. I never sign any contract from any of the hundreds of company I have tested their products, that forced me into selling or promoting only their products. Not only is that a disservice to my clients, but it is not professional. I must always maintain an open mind and be willing to offer choices, and not hide the benefits of another product. I am more informed, not smarter than a client. I provide information that they don't understand or don't have the time to spend.

So Holly, I ask in the future if you disagree with me be professional about it and not label or stereotype me based on what you think I am based on my words. That is what e-mail can be used for. I was only putting forth input that the individual was requesting information on. If you don't like it you don't have to follow it.

Tim Barnes
President
Barnes and Associates
Matrox Solutions Provider

[Smiff]

Oh and BTW Mr. President the Sig. makes you look a complete arse.