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**Kruzin** · 28 June 1999, 11:22

Manifest-
You certainly did put a lot of thought into your writing. You veiled your insults well. Like Whisper on Prozac

You don't know me. You have no idea who I am, what I do, or what my qualifications are. Therefore, you have no place to insinuate that I am some know-nothing twit who is only a beta tester because of some personal connection. The fact is, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Every one of the beta testers has extensive knowledge in his own field, and are each highly qualified professionals. My personal history consists partly of : PC tech/assembler. PC phone tech support. Tech department Manager. AutoCAD drafter for more than 14 years, currently self-employed, using AutoCAD daily, not to mention the other office programs I use. More than 10 years teaching college CAD courses part-time. Add to the professional knowledge the fact that I'm an avid gamer on the same PC I use to work on. I think I can make the cut. Every one of the testers is equally knowledgeable in their own area, which covers a variety of uses and applications. For you to insinuate otherwise, without even knowing who you are slandering is just ignorant.

Before the beta test program, I had never had a single exchange with Haig. It was my abilities, and willingness to contribute in a constructive way that led to this arrangement. There are no personal ties involved, and there is no X-file here, Mulder.

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P2-350(@103*4=412), Asus P2B(1009), 128meg PC100, MillG400 32meg(PD5.20.???), CL SB Live!Value, CL PC-DVD, Mitsumi CD-R, WD UDMA 8.4&6.4 gig, (2)USR 56k(multilinked), 3Com 905B-TX, etc...

**Haig** · 28 June 1999, 12:53

Hi Manifest,

1 - Correct. It was a personal choice on my part. This is how I was doing it for the past 2 years with the Video group and it has succeeded. I am not about to change to the application method eventhough I have kicked a few out (See below).

All beta testers can post their CV to this forum if they like. So far, I have no regrets with the remaining ones.

I may be wrong but your quote:

"We, the users of your product, are suffering and in need a bit of attention."

sounds more like "give us the beta drivers because we your customers deserve it"
rather than your concern about how I chose the beta testers.

2 - Well, I don't pick people out of a hat nor is it a spur of the moment decision.

If I chose someone that sent in 1 bug a week or found out that they actually don't know much about PC's, they are out.

I have done it before and will continue to do it.

You don't know what I expect from a beta tester before even approaching them nor do you know what I look for in a beta tester? So how could you say that I'm casual about it?

"Currently, my opinion is that there are only a very few involved. Your comments back this up in that you are unable to support larger amounts of beta testers than what you now currently have."

I said that currently we cannot manage hundreds of beta testers. I also said that I know I missed a few people.

There are alot of them that won't even bother declaring themselves along with tens of Matrox Techies and other Matrox employees using alias's for obvious reasons.

Maybe relying on forums to choose a beta tester is not acceptable to a few people
but I don't think so. Just from reading posts, you can easily tell who knows what.
The only chance I take is whether they will send in a bug report.

I am not too crazy about anyone applying to be a beta tester because anyone can make a CV look good. With this path, I take 3 chances:

a - Are they lying on their application?
b - Will they send in bug reports?
c - Do they really know anything about a PC?

4 - I didn't take it personal . Just trying to make it clear that what you want to happen won't come from Technical Support. You would have better luck emailing customer service about it since this is what you are after. Technical Support's main function is to make sure that the hardware is working.

I used to do this personally over on the video forum but have vowed never to do it again. Why? Because no matter how much info I gave them about the driver situation and a possible release date, there was always a long thread about "what's taking so long", "you lied to us" etc.

The final point for me was when one day, my staff receieved close to 100 calls in tech supp all of which was asking "why are they taking so long, Haig had told us...." while clients with real problems had to wait on the phone.

As Kruzin stated, there are no ties be it personal or net buddies with who I chose. Before I took over both graphics and video, I was only in charge of the video support. I didn't have a clue who anyone was outside of the "Idiot's" forum. Not even the man with the thousand posts

Once I got this position, I slowly came over and lurked to see who everyone is and started chosing people for graphics beta testers.

If you look at the posts from 4 months ago, you would see that I had run ins with a few "self declared" beta testers and with a few non "self declared beta testers" but I still chose them for what they know.

Anyways, why am I even explaining my actions here?

Haig

**Manifest** · 28 June 1999, 13:02

Kruzin,

Thank your for your reply, please re-read each of these messages, as you mentioned in a previous post, it sounds like word twisting is contagious. I will not swap credentials with you, nor will I commit you to idealess speaker. My feelings are one thing, my ideas to matrox are another. Each is expressed in separate messages that were both encouragement and a rebuttal. The only criticisms that I have for the beta testers are for matrox and how matrox relates to this beta program and the testers.

There is no conspiracy here, or malicious intent, just frustration from another G200 user that knows an awful lot about what goes on in this industry and doesn’t like what they see.

**Shlooky** · 28 June 1999, 13:17

Yo Manifest dude..!

why don't you wait like the rest of us here
instead of thrashing and bashing.
Your obviously frustrated so are many here plus the current drivers seem to work fine for me so I'm not in a rush for beta drivers, on the contrary I want a full version and no beta of this so called PD 5. whatever.

Cheer up dude we're all in the same boat
Chaosers,
Shlooky

------------------

Waiting for my G400 Max

**ALBPM** · 28 June 1999, 13:50

Hey Guyz whats all the fuss about.

We're all waiting for a Final PD5.X version even the Beta Boyz. They are testing Beta Drivers, they don't have a Final version yet either.
As far as the job that Haig has done, all I can say is "Excellent", well done Haig. The support we have here is a "HELL" of alot better than it was when the G200 came out. We were basically on our own. There wasn't any Matrox presence here to speak of. Just a few like ROM and Phoenix and boy did they take a severe and undeserved beating for trying to help out.
I wasn't chosen as a Beta Tester and I don't hold a grudge. I'm glad that they are here to help and to give us any bit of encouragement.
This all may seem like an insignificant drop in the bucket for some but to the rest of us it is progress in the right direction. So please give Haig and the few beta testers we have on the Forum some room to work. They don't decide when the Final Drivers will be released but they do provide valued customer support which we did not have in the past.

Paul

**Manifest** · 28 June 1999, 14:16

Haig,

Thank you again for the reply, you did fine up until the last line, but will get to that in a second. My comments are listed below:

Hi Manifest,
1 - Correct. It was a personal choice on my part. This is how I was doing it for the past 2 years with the Video group and it has succeeded. I am not about to change to the application method eventhough I have kicked a few out (See below).
All beta testers can post their CV to this forum if they like. So far, I have no regrets with the remaining ones.
I may be wrong but your quote:
"We, the users of your product, are suffering and in need a bit of attention."
sounds more like "give us the beta drivers because we your customers deserve it"
rather than your concern about how I chose the beta testers.

Manifest: Yes, and this method seems to have excluded a large part of the matrox community with G200 cards. Just a thought here, and take this as light criticisms for future improvements, but maybe the current method works well for a video card that has not yet been released. But for a card that has been on shelves for a year, that is missing advertised functionality, a more open beta cycle may be warranted. It is not that you regret your beta testers, or that they are in any way deliquent, but how well does the current group represent the G200 community as a whole? Your choices for what you have I am sure are correct, but is the method of gathering those choices correct? We will see sometime soon I guess.

On the quote “We, the users of your product, are suffering and in need a bit of attention”, it refers to the lack of official word from matrox on driver issues such as this. It also means that we are asking for help from matrox on the issue. As manager of tech support you deal with non-technical people every day. These people express themselves differently. One of the qualities a tech support manager searches for in their employees are those that can bridge the gap between tech and ordinary people. Ordinary people ask for help, when something they think shoudl work doesn’t. They then go to those that can help them. Your are in that position, and therefore one of the correct people to answer this and some of the other messages of this type.
A good response to some of my questions should be..
“Thank you very much for the open beta, while currently not part of our build cycle, we will consider implementing into future release cycles.”
Once again, not to be smart, but as an official representative of matrox, sometimes smoozing is called for.

2 - Well, I don't pick people out of a hat nor is it a spur of the moment decision.
If I chose someone that sent in 1 bug a week or found out that they actually don't know much about PC's, they are out.
I have done it before and will continue to do it.

Manifest: Once again, not to be smart but if you reported to me, I would expect this.

You don't know what I expect from a beta tester before even approaching them nor do you know what I look for in a beta tester? So how could you say that I'm casual about it?

Manifest: Since no open beta was called I consider the choice of beta testers casual since there was no large pool of beta testers to choose from.

"Currently, my opinion is that there are only a very few involved. Your comments back this up in that you are unable to support larger amounts of beta testers than what you now currently have."
I said that currently we cannot manage hundreds of beta testers. I also said that I know I missed a few people.

Manifest: Ok, so there is a open beta and a private beta, this is one of the methods to determine that they are no big holes left open in the code. A open beta is not necessarily a management nightmare.

There are alot of them that won't even bother declaring themselves along with tens of Matrox Techies and other Matrox employees using alias's for obvious reasons.
Maybe relying on forums to choose a beta tester is not acceptable to a few people
but I don't think so. Just from reading posts, you can easily tell who knows what.
The only chance I take is whether they will send in a bug report.

Manifest: The current beta testers, nor your method of obtaining “some” of these testers from the forums is an issue here. It is the lack of a oepn beta process, and the information released from the beta testers that is, in my opinion, dangerous. Matrox should release all pertinent information concerning the drivers, not the beta testers.

I am not too crazy about anyone applying to be a beta tester because anyone can make a CV look good. With this path, I take 3 chances:
a - Are they lying on their application?
b - Will they send in bug reports?
c - Do they really know anything about a PC?

Manifest: With a private beta this is still an issue and will remain so, with a open beta it is not. There is no need to explain yourself here since what you are describing is the interview for the private beta.

4 - I didn't take it personal . Just trying to make it clear that what you want to happen won't come from Technical Support. You would have better luck emailing customer service about it since this is what you are after. Technical Support's main function is to make sure that the hardware is working.
I used to do this personally over on the video forum but have vowed never to do it again. Why? Because no matter how much info I gave them about the driver situation and a possible release date, there was always a long thread about "what's taking so long", "you lied to us" etc.
The final point for me was when one day, my staff receieved close to 100 calls in tech supp all of which was asking "why are they taking so long, Haig had told us...." while clients with real problems had to wait on the phone.

Manifest: The exact reasons that information should be available via official matrox news updates that are available to those that would like to review this information. First, 90% of the information that users call in and want will already be posted, and tech support calles will go down because you should have less of the ‘casual’ dial up user asking for a release date. If you do, you can refer them to the “official statement”.

As Kruzin stated, there are no ties be it personal or net buddies with who I chose. Before I took over both graphics and video, I was only in charge of the video support. I didn't have a clue who anyone was outside of the "Idiot's" forum. Not even the man with the thousand posts

Manifest: Sorry, but never was it mentioned from me that you guys were buddies or anything. If matrox had and official method that I could use to obtain this information then I could care less if they lived next door to you.

Once I got this position, I slowly came over and lurked to see who everyone is and started chosing people for graphics beta testers.
If you look at the posts from 4 months ago, you would see that I had run ins with a few "self declared" beta testers and with a few non "self declared beta testers" but I still chose them for what they know.
Anyways, why am I even explaining my actions here?

Manifest: I am not asking for an explanation of your decissions, I am just giving constructive ideas. As manager it is almost always best to revert to the position of listener, then repeat what you have heard, then give your best possible answer. A good answer on my part to your “why am I even explaining my action here?” is that you never know, I could be your boss. Always consider the actions of such a message since everything here is public. Once again, a very good reason to have and official statement.

Thanks for your ear Haig and I hope others in matrox get to hear this also.

**Manifest** · 28 June 1999, 14:23

Shlooky,

Glad to hear that the current drivers work fine for you, but this is not the case for many of us matrox G200 users. Of course I am waiting like everyone else (for a year now), what makes you think I have stepped to the front of the line or anything? Read through the posts and explanations, you should have a better understanding about what I am discussing here.

[This message has been edited by Manifest (edited 06-29-99).]

**Manifest** · 28 June 1999, 14:30

ALBPM,

There is no Haig or BetaBoyz bashing here either, Haig just put on his Matrox cap and stepped into the ring. I respect him for that and with all this "free" advice going around maybe something good will come out of it.
I feel that this last year I have been silent for far too long, and there is never a time like the present!

**Shlooky** · 28 June 1999, 14:32

Yo Manifest,

I have the Matrox Marvel and I'm running the latest drivers which were released April 9th 1999 version 4.33 no problems here.
Why don't you give them a try..?
Besides maybe with 10-20 words or less you can tell us what's the problem here

Chaosers,
Shlooky

------------------

Waiting for my G400 Max

**Manifest** · 28 June 1999, 14:54

Shlook,

Ok basic answer in 20 words or less. The 4.33 drivers do not support the OGL beta 2 which is required for me. (at lest what works of it)

Whew, about 20!

**Elie** · 28 June 1999, 15:34

Hi Manifest,

Looks like your pissed off because of how Matrox selected their Beta group and why your not seeing new drivers every week, otherwise you would'nt have spent all this energy trying to make a point.

I read this whole thread of yours and I see one thing...
Your trying to weasel the Beta team or Matrox into releasing premature drivers simply to satisfy your needs.
If you waited this long you can wait a tiny bit longer right..?

**LightHeaded** · 28 June 1999, 15:37

Stay cool, y'all.....
This will eventually pass.

There are people who will just keep hammering an issue into the ground, long after they have made their point over and over again.

I know.....I did the same thing before I realized that I had a life beyond whining about my graphics adapter. I did not like the NT OpenGL ICD situation, but I found out that Matrox was painfully aware of the problem and was busting butt to get it right.

So why beat the issue to death and just get myself and everyone else all riled up? It just seemed like a terrible waste of bandwidth. I finally realized that Matrox was not being managed by cretins or crooks, they were just regular folks who value their customers, trying to fix up a very bad situation.

And you know what? I came to this determination BEFORE I started helping out with testing beta drivers.

Haig, you guys just keep working on those drivers and keep in the groove. I bet that as soon as they are ready to release, you will splatter the Web with the notice.

Beta Gang, don't give up on being such awesome support to this Forum. Especially St. Markus of Selchow.

Manifest, lighten up....this isn't the Supreme Court...you made your point....it has been heard.

Good Night....

------------------
Paul Luntsford, LC
PLA Designs, Inc. Theatre and Lighting Consultants
NT4, AOpenAX6BC, P3-500, 100MHzFSB,256MB SDRAM(PC100),MillG200AGP/16MB SGRAM

**Filmgeek** · 28 June 1999, 19:38

I realize this will seem like more flamebait, but I have to agree with Manifest, on at least one issue. That is, Matrox needs to open up its beta program and get more testers. The more beta testers the better. Haig says he hasn't changed things from how he handled beta testing in Matrox's Video group, but wasn't that a little different? I mean we are talking about Matrox's high end stuff, aren't we? Like the hardware and software that is like $10,000? Good grief, isn't that a little bit different from a mainstream video card that has a much much bigger market?

Ever since the G200 came out it has been painfully evident that Matrox isn't testing on enough systems. It's really easy to blame the users and say they have an "unusual" system setup, just because they have a particular motherboard that Matrox doesn't have to test on. I fear when the G400s start trickling into the market, the evidence that this hasn't changed will be there. Perhaps not, only time will tell.

As for the problem of not having enough people to keep track of all those testers, sheesh, what can say, maybe Matrox needs to hire more people, what else is new?

[This message has been edited by Filmgeek (edited 06-29-99).]

**tysoe** · 28 June 1999, 20:30

I think the trouble with this beta testing lark, from having read the forum for several months is that most testers are almost exclusively games orientated.

Being primarily a 3D artist/animator I am mostly interested in an OpenGL ICD for high end design software in NT.

The requrements for games and 3D apps are different, many high end apps do not recognise matrox cards and a number of other mid range cards at all simply because they do not have a comprehensive GL ICD. For instance, Softimage, Wavefront Maya, Nichimens new package Mirai, and their low end Nendo do not currently run in NT on my machine due to Open GL display errors. Most of the above packages will not run at all in win 98 being NT only applications making the only ICD availiable for the G200 obsolete for anything but games which generaly run fine.

It is really frustrating reading all the information on the forums which although interesting are generally worthless where NT and 3D apps are concerned. A couple of people have tried to run 3DS Max and give out information, but as far as I am aware none of them are Max users and so they are not in a good position to test the software and report back. A few simple geometric shapes and a teapot do not a detailed textured NURBS model make.

Anyway, I am just trying to point out the lack of NT support anywhere for NT 3D users. Currently the best known card on its way is the VX1, which although not that great for games is almost twice as fast in 3D applications with open GL as a TNT ultra, and can be bought for around the same price as the G200 MAX.

I am however keen on the Matrox card and wishing with a lot of reservations, that its GL performance will be competitive which the rumours I hear in graphics circles is unlikely as the VX1 has a good geometry processor.

I'm not asking to be a beta tester, I'll probably borrow a G400 MAX from frys when its out and see first hand wether I want to keep it.

thats my 10 cents

Tysoe

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