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The Rev
13th October 1999, 11:18
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:59:35 -0700
From: Simulations <simulations@sierra.com> Add to Address Book Add To Spam Block List
Subject: RE: email form:TRIBES
To: "'xxxx'" <BStark@mailcity.com>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for contacting Sierra On-Line Technical Support.

This is really not something you can complain to us. If you check with
Matrox they will tell you that G400 still not using a real ICD driver. It is
actually a MiniGL driver and really can not use the full potential of the
card. Same as G200, this card is D3D card. It perform the better on D3D, not
OpenGL.

Even till now, G400 doesn't have a big enough userbase. So developing
special codes to optimize performence on G400 (like we did for TNT/TNT2) is
not very practical. And overall this card is not as powerful as TNT2 on the
RAW polygon pushing and pixel filling speed.

If the Matrox can improbe their ICD driver and have a good user base before
Tribes 2 is finalized, that is a very good change G400 special support will
be included in Tribes 2.

We value the input of our customers. Unfortunately, because of the focus of
our department, we handle strictly technical issues. Our communication with
other departments is limited; therefore, we suggest that you send
e-mail to
suggestions@sierra.com. You will receive an automated response ackowledging
receipt, and your e-mail will be forwarded to the relevant department.

If you require further support, please e-mail us, including the full thread
of this correspondence in your message.

Sincerely,

Arnold
Technical Support
Sierra On-Line


-----Original Message-----
From: xxxx
[mailto:xxxx]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 3:41 PM
To: simulations@sierra.com
Subject: email form:TRIBES


TRIBES
Diamond MX300
Matrox G400 32MB
more
Homebuilt
Intel Celeron 466MHz
Windows 98
Video
To Whom It May Concern At Sierra/Dynamix,

I have enjoyed playing Starsiege Tribes for quite a long time.
Recently I purchased a new Matrox G400 video card
(http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/mill_g400/home.htm). With my new Matrox
G400, I can no longer play Tribes in OpenGL mode. And as an avid Tribes
player, I (and many other G400 owners) need OpenGL in order for serious
gameplay. I can play Tribes smoothly in software mode at 1024 x 768. Yet I
can count the frames crawl by in OpenGL mode at 640 x 480. Plus there are
MANY graphic flaws. I suggest you see for yourself. It's bad. On a nVidia
TNT2, Tribes can be played smoothly in OpenGL mode without any graphic

flaws.
http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001380.html

Above is a URL to my discussion of this matter at MatroxUsers forum.
I talk about this problem a bit more detailed there. Feel free to join in
the discussion. As Matrox G400 owners, we feel left out by Matrox and
Dynamix. We are not able to enjoy Starsiege Tribes like many others. Please
try as hard as possible to resolve this matter. I will be glad to answer any
questions you might have at my below email address.

Thank you

deathwalker
13th October 1999, 11:40
What do the mean not a big following.
How many cards does it take to get support ?

No pun intended.

The Rev
13th October 1999, 11:44
I don't even know why they have to support each card by itself. They say Matrox hasn't made a full ICD! As far as I know, Matrox's PD 5.30 (and past releases) included a full OpenGL ICD.

Sounds very strange. I'de like to be able to play Tribes2 with my G400.

A Sad Tribes Player.

Kruzin
13th October 1999, 12:09
"So developing
special codes to optimize performence on G400 (like we did for TNT/TNT2) is
not very practical."

Right here they tell you TnT got special treatment with their OGL coding. For them to blame Matrox is a huge cop-out. The Gx00 ICD is complete enough to run any other OGL game out there...why not Tribes? Notice they did not mention the fact that TnT is the only card they really optimised for, and that all other cards (not just the G200 and G400) suck in their game if using OGL. If you where to write a similar letter, stating you had an ATI Rage 128, you would get the same responce, with ATI's name in all the spots where Matox's name is now...

Kruzin
13th October 1999, 12:11
Not to mention, for a tech support proffesional, this Arnold person has the grammar and spelling of a fifth grader...how can anyone take that piss-poor reply seriously? You'd think he could at least spell check his writings http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif

bunnymud
13th October 1999, 12:25
They just bowed down to the hype of the TNT. I my self kept my Canopus for Tribes, but if they want me to believe the TNT or even the TNT2 is faster than a G400 with the new turbo drivers(I have seen the benchmarks
) they are nucking futs.

The Rev
13th October 1999, 12:40
It's really starting to sound like they are way to involved with nVidia to let any other card supporting OpenGL to work well with Tribes, and maybe Tribes2 (as mentioned in the response). I can understand Tribes1 not supporting many video cards for OpenGL since it was implemented more as a afterthought in a patch. It was just D3D and Glide. Though I would expect Tribes2 to have robust OpenGL. The tone of the techie's response sounds depressing though.

"If the Matrox can improbe their ICD driver and have a good user base before
Tribes 2 is finalized, that is a very good change G400 special support will
be included in Tribes 2."

Seems like you'll have to choose OpenGL and under the Setup bar you'll see a defunct 'Way-Too-Generic' and a 'GeForce256-Needed-To-Run-OpenGL' selection. How could any game designer make a game run a standard API on one video card? They isolated a lot of gamers and don't seem to care. Sigh.

What to do? It's my fav game. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by The Rev (edited 13 October 1999).]

Kruzin
13th October 1999, 12:58
D3D?
Tribes has no D3D. If it did, we could use that.
It only has Software, Glide, and butchered OGL...

The Rev
13th October 1999, 13:05
Oops. Corrected. Whenever I see 'software mode' I always think D3D. Tribes1 software mode lacks a lot of flash and is a bit blocky even at the highest resolution. Plus the terrain can differ a bit when zooming in and out in software mode. Sometimes I see a person on a hill far away, and go to snipe 'em. When I zoom in that person is shown as out of view, since the terrain changes slightly as you get closer/zoom in. I saw alot less of that in OpenGL mode. It really can kill the moment.

LAMFDTK
13th October 1999, 13:37
Rev you have spent alot of time on this and I'm not surprised with the sophmoric response that you recieved from the worst game manufacturing company of all time. The place to go is the message boards on starsiege web sites thats where the programers are. I hope that I dont have to use my V2 much longer......

------------------
PIII-450@504, 128 HDSRAM, Asus P3BF, G400/32, SBLive!, Nokia 447Xi 17", oh yea, a nice floppy drive

SPSUguy
13th October 1999, 14:11
Hey,

This is just utter BS! After putting in my G400 and trying out all my games... Tribes is the only one that bites. Even Unreal plays great. If tribes 2 comes out and it is still glide/tnt/or nothing... well that's just one less copy they're going to sell. At least as far as i'm concerned.

I'm about ready to yank my V2 sli combo not just because i don't ever use them anymore... but because I want to stand up to these stupid publishers and old crappy 3dfx technology.

Ok... i'm done.

------------------
Abit BH6, Celeron 450, Matrox G400 32mb "MAX", 256mb ram, IBM 10GB, DVD 5x, MX300

[PCXL] Mabelrode
13th October 1999, 14:43
Fellow Tribes Players,

Er, while I am NOT showing support for Sierra & co in terms of their not optimizing code for OGL better, I ~would~ like to point out how the current Matrox mini is optimized ONLY for Pentium III. "Notice they did not mention the fact that TnT is the only card they really optimised for, and that all other cards (not just the G200 and G400) suck in their game if using OGL"... these comments about picking favorites sounds chillingly familiar, ne? While, yes, the gaming company should allow for some divergence from card to card {and I PRAY I can play T-2 in full OGL on my G400 out of the damn box}, an uppity driver set {or an incomplete one} is just as much to blame.

Frankly, why should I have to upgrade my entire damn system to accomodate one card? That's not how it works. {Alas that I've surrendered to the idea that I'll be checking into it, anyway, and yes, merely for Tribes enjoyment. A new PIII AND a Voodoo2 will be installed this weekend, sending me to the poorhouse. }

absalom
13th October 1999, 14:56
Sierra used to be a reputable company. They've had a long history, one as long as origin or EA in the computer gaming industry. In the past few years it's gone down the tube, imo. I'm not at all surprised in the response The_Rev got. I've owned every one of the "X" Quest series, and now I fear it's all too commercial nowadays to expect something stellar from them. Sierra was started out by a couple who loved to design games for people who would love them the same back. The commercialism never got in the way and sequels sold on reputation. But I won't go into this, you can read a great interview done by gamersdepot with one of them, it explains what has happened to sierra since then:

http://www.gamersdepot.com/interview_roberta_a.htm


You also have to remember that Dynamix (another old school developer with reputation) is the one who originally designed Tribes and basically handed it over to Sierra when it was done, like most design teams do nowadays. You got a response from a Sierra peon, not something anyone would take seriously as a technological expert. I personally don't see why they didn't patch Tribes for direct3d anyway. Opengl is a picky as hell API that started out running half assed on 3dfx cards well enough that id software thought why not piss MS off and make all our games opengl only. Even now, years later, opengl is slowly gaining any ground as a feasable tool for game developers. Who really knows why tribes was patched for opengl over direct3d... it was developed with 3dfx in mind from the beginning anyway. The code change from glide to direct3d wouldn't be any more extra effort than it was for opengl, imo. A larger support database would be gained from adding direct3d obviously, which is probably why it was patched for opengl in the first place. The less cards an added feature runs on, the less tech support and headaches. And now, looking at how well Tim Sweeny has done with the unreal engine and direct3d, tribes would probably smoke in direct3d if done right. But, alas, tribes is showing it's age and we probably won't see direct3d and tribes meet each other untill the source code is ever released (if it ever does). We can always hope for tribes2, I guess.

Zwisch
13th October 1999, 16:15
[PCXL] Mabelrode, the G400 offers already an ICD with rather good performance. I get better performance with my new G400 MAX on my PII than with my older Viper770 Ultra... The TurboGL is a plus for those with faster system, this does not mean that the card is not functionnal or fast on PII's or celeron... don't get upset for this.. the performance are still great.

tish beta2
13th October 1999, 16:29
And overall this card is not as powerful as TNT2 on the RAW polygon pushing and pixel filling speed.

This is why the G400 needs such a bad-ass CPU. Damn even if I crank the res down to 800x16 and with low detail settings, at some large areas in Descent 3 it's still very laggy. I have a P3-500 and the Max.

Even till now, G400 doesn't have a big enough userbase.

That's right. Have you guys any idea how many TNT/TNT2/Voodoo2/V3 users there's out there? And how many G400 users?

This guy is only telling the thruth.

Opengl is a picky as hell API that started out running half assed on 3dfx cards well enough that id software thought why not piss MS off and make all our games opengl only.

OGL is not supported by MS, and not being a directX API, where you get 90% of the programming done by M$. You gotto do all the hard work youself for the OGL. OGL is an supreme 3D API developed by sun over many years. In games, you get benefits like smoother FPS, less control lag and crisper image. Of course this is "more or less" depending on how it's embedded/programmed into a game, but OGL is usually always superior to D3D.

for a tech support proffesional, this Arnold person has the grammar and spelling of a fifth grader...

This guy is answering mails all day long, and as most other techsupporters, he thought people rather would have a fast reply than a perfect spelled one. I've gotten several mails from Matrox dev rel team/tech support that's also less readible http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif

What you want to happen, is Matrox to go over there and get their programmers drilled a little. Hey, they do it everyday for the EMBM, why not visit sierra in the same turn?

It is actually a MiniGL driver and really can not use the full potential of the
card.

True too. The only thing Matrox is doing is to program the "ICD" to support lightwave, 3d studio, quake, unreal and HL. Try to use an OGL screensaver...


Thanks + Best Regards
Fish

The Rock
13th October 1999, 16:42
I've heard that Tribes is buggy on lots of systems that are non-Matrox. ATI has an OpenGL ICD that works fairly well (slow, but fairly stable), and I hear Tribes sucks on that too. If Dynamix really wanted to reach as many gamers as possible, they would have gone Direct3d instead of this OpenGL garbage. OpenGL stinks; no one can seem to program it right and it's only advantage over D3D is portability to other OSes. D3D looks just as good, is faster, and is a helluva lot more widely supported than OpenGL. It seems that ID is (err..was) the only company that could do a good job with OpenGL, and I think that was because Brian Hook (former ID guy) helped developed the original OpenGL standard. Now that he's gone, it'll be interesting to see if ID's next OpenGL game will be solid, or will it be D3D? Sorry for the semi-off-topic rant, but I HATE OpenGL. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
The Rock
"Discourage incest - ban country music NOW!"

System:
P2 350 /w Asus P2B /w 128 Meg PC100 SDRAM
17.2Gig Maxtor DiamondMax HD + 6.4Gig Fujitsu HD
Matrox G400 32Meg + SB PCI 128 Sound
Modem Blaster 56K Modem + Panasonic 2x/4x SCSI Toaster + 32X CD-ROM

Ant
13th October 1999, 16:45
MS doesn't support OpenGL? Then how come they have been shipping OpenGL support with Win 9x and NT for years? How come they ship Win 9x and NT with OpenGL screen savers?

Yes the G400 ICD is lacking in some areas but the reply is from someone who hasn't got a clue what he is talking about.

"The only thing Matrox is doing is to program the "ICD" to support lightwave, 3d studio, quake, unreal and HL. Try to use an OGL screensaver..."

I have been using OpenGL screensavers for a long time. Tribes has and always has had OpenGL problems with many cards not just the G400s.

absalom
13th October 1999, 17:26
Farenheit or whatever you want to formerly call it, should've said it all there, Ant. If anything MS has been wanting to make both opengl and directx converge for the sake of easier programming. Any truly hardcore gamer could easily tell you that Carmack, 3dfx and it's minigl were the source of the gaming push for opengl. If it wasn't for that "push", I seriously doubt opengl would even be where it is today among games. And as for opengl being superior, anyone who believes this is seriously mislead. Go download the dx7 SDK and compare. Even on yesterday's hardware opengl is lacking many features (and optimizations) dx7 offers. The only thing that has saved opengl from becoming completely obsolete is it's "pluggable" extensions. That right there leaves everything beyond normal opengl functions up to the hardware guru's. The ability to do anything they want through the drivers can either make or break opengl's appeal. It may have taken MS alot of tries to get dx right, but from a programmer's perspective, dx7 is lookin' mighty pretty right now. Chris Egerter, any thoughts on this? http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/smile.gif

IceStorm
13th October 1999, 18:15
Supporting GLide and an optimized TNT OpenGL driver covers most of the gaming bases out there, folks.

Seriously, besides the G400, what competition is there for 3dfx or nVidia? S3's Savage4? The V2x00 series?? The Trident line??? Yeah, right.

Face it, how many OTHER people do you know who own Matrox cards (besides us) and use them for gaming? I know none. Everyone else I know uses 3dfx or nVidia hardware. I'm the only nut in my circle of friends who is willing to drop $270 on the then-black-horse G400 MAX. Hell, it's not like you can actually BUY the cards anywhere but online, anyway. :-)

If you wanna play Tribes, buy the hardware that's necessary for it *insert HUGE V2 plug here*. No software company HAS TO support a particular hardware platform. Look at NT - USB support? No. Plug-n-pray support? Barely. DX7 support? Not. So you think one piddly little game made by a gnat-sized company (compared to Microsoft), is going to feel any responsibility to the natterings of a few pesky Matrox G400 owners who happen to like playing games? :-)

I agree the reply from Sierra could have used some work. Then again, tech support people aren't the most eloquent writers, from my experiences.

Sean Segel
13th October 1999, 19:42
I would take this comment from "Arnold" of Technical Support with a grain of salt. All companies have technical support operators that are hired for that one purpose. These technical support operators many times are not involved with any of the game making process or driver implementation.

The Matrox G400 Max is sold out everywhere and the trend continues. This individual obviously owns a Nvidia card and could care less about Matrox. He even went as far as making negative comments about a card that has the most positive reviews ever. You should send a copy of his message to the game authors and try to get a real response on this issue.

Thanks,

Sean

bunnymud
13th October 1999, 20:21
Tribes in OGL is crap(aside for the TNT ogl which the game is optimized for). Even with my V2 it was crap. Glide is the only way to play tribes. As for the G400 with OGl games, I do not see as bad quality in the graphics as I do in Tribes. Hell, I use the G for kingpin and Q2&3 and it runs just fine fine fine.

[This message has been edited by bunnymud (edited 14 October 1999).]

Tumu
14th October 1999, 01:54
The Rev, I have to agree with Sean Segel. I too suggest you to send that tech support reply DIRECTLY to the game authors and see if you get a more detailed reply. For email addresses of the Tribes-posse, look in www.bluesnews.com (http://www.bluesnews.com) Dynamix plan-section.

I myself don't care how bad the OGL support is in Tribes right now, but I want it to get better, because Tribes 2 isn't going to be ready for a long time. If it happens that Dynamix doesn't have any interest in Tribes anymore (doesn't seem to be so, look for those recent mod releases by Tribes programmers), Matrox could write a Tribes MCD in the TurboGL. And while at it, a P2 and K6 support in TurboGL would also make a LOT of people happy.

-Tumu

LAMFDTK
14th October 1999, 06:52
bunnymud "Tribes in OGL is crap"

You do not know what what you are talking about. Tribes on a TNT looks amazing ! You have to be kidding me "is crap" Yea right..It is one of the most beautiful looking game that I have ever seen.

------------------
PIII-450@504, 128 HDSRAM, Asus P3BF, G400/32, SBLive!, Nokia 447Xi 17", oh yea, a nice floppy drive

bunnymud
14th October 1999, 07:10
I ment aside from the TNT OpenGL which I am sure the game looks fine in.

LAMFDTK
14th October 1999, 08:34
OK man

The Rev
14th October 1999, 09:31
Sorry I wasn't able to post earlier. My mouse broke last night. I was able to make a early morning run for a dual scrolling mouse to relieve myself of the computer withdraw. I was suprised to see the new matroxusers.com layout. Very nice indeed.

Tumu's suggestion to search Blues News for Tribe's programmers .plan helped me find Nels Bruckner. He programs the patches for Tribes and is a Tribes2 programmer! His email address is nels.bruckner@dynamix.com. If any other G400 Tribes1 and soon-to-be Tribes2 players would like to see better OpenGL support, please give him a friendly e-mail. Maybe even a link to this thread.

I also took note of the suggestion to make a post to the TribesPlayer.com forums. I will try to find the words for such a post.

I'm not quite sure what to write Nel, or how to word such a email. I don't know too much about programming for the OpenGL API. And i'm still confused about the state of the G400's ICD.

Anyone have suggestions/pointers for my email ot Nel?

Thanks!
A Tribes Player

Shandra
14th October 1999, 11:14
Hi Folks,

Tish Beta2: Sun? Always thought OGL was
from SGI...

Well and as I've read through this thread...
Yeah, I played just the tribes demo and thought Wow, thats a good LAN/Net Game, (so much for my now 2nd System with a G200 and
V2) - but now with my new System that just
had a G400 (What the heck, I am not missing
glide as the sharpness and colour of the
direct3d games I am using is much better
with the matrox as on any 3dfx card (I always
used my g200 on games that would be fast enough with it)... But now, I think my first
interest in the game is gone and Tribes2 -
they better to a proper OGL or better a D3D
and I am with it... otherwise one more copy
less to be sold by them :/

------------------
CU,
SHAnDRA
dow gon

System: Celeron500, AsusP2B-F (1010 Bios), 192MB
16,8 GB IBM HD, 10,2 GB Maxtor HD, Samsung 604F DVD
SBLive (LiveWare2.1), G400 32MB SH (5.20 certified)
Realtek SNE2000, Diamond SupraExpress 56e (V90 Bios)
Logitech MouseMan+ (Driver 8.4), Microsoft Sidewinder Prec.Pro

Gurm
14th October 1999, 16:52
Folks,

Sierra's tech support is utterly without a clue. Their operators are reading from a big book of answers, written by a REAL tech-support person.

My wife LOVES Lords of Magic. There are, however, some serious bugs in the game. I spent WEEKS trying to convince some of their tech support operators to at least pass on my PROFESSIONALLY PREPARED BUG LIST (I beta-test for a living!) to the programmers. They said no, categorically.

Well, I sent it off to the programming team directly. And while some of them didn't get fixed, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who bitched, lo and behold there gets released a "Lords of Magic Special Edition", with 90%+ of the bugfixes.

Basically Sierra has become a big bloated company. Inter-departmental communication would make them get off their asses, so they don't do it.

Sorry... 8-(

Didn't mean to be such a downer.

- Gurm

------------------
G. U. R. M. It's not hard to spell, is it? Then don't screw it up!
The word "Gurm" is in no way Copyright 1999 Jorden van der Elst.

tish beta2
14th October 1999, 21:38
Shandra, you where the one who cought my con. Just wanted to check the sharpness on other posters conserning the OGL matter.

SGI developed OpenGL not Sun.

Anyway, Ant why do you have to be so picky and profolded dumb (hey, you called me a childish mind of a troll http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif)? I thought you knew what I meant when I said MS don't support OGL;
They support it just as they support Netscape. They can't stop make it working (that's against marketing laws), but they can limp it a little and make "better" stuff themselves.

Listen, when a programmer have to prog stuff for DX, then 80% of the job is already done. Direct X is just a bunch of FX and features that's executed directly on the CPU. In DX3 we got direct executed crop/rezise of images/textures. In DX5 we got fading in/out (variable alpha channel). Now, for a programmer to use fading effects in his game, he just need to copy/paste a special line of code and he can use it directly in the games. (that's exceravated, but not far off at all)

When it comes to OpenGL, MS deliberately made it impossible to make two OGL ICD's on the same system, and then forcing the Voodoo 2 cards to only be submitted a "stand alone" OGL driver. This is sort of a MiniGL which got all fetaures of an ICD. (optimized for what's currently out there)

I may be a little wrong on this excact subject but I know it's some kind of the usual purposed screw-ups from mickeysoft. They would rather see everything running D3D than OGL.

Yes the G400 ICD is lacking in some areas but the reply is from someone who hasn't got a clue what he is talking about.

You're the one who don't have a clue what you're talking about. The G400's ICD is not an ICD since it don't support apps/games "out of the box" but have to be "optimized" for them. It's much easier to just look at current programs/games and see what they want and give them that.

Try to use those OGL screensavers of yours with dualhead enabled 8-)


And the last issue here.
OpenGL is FAR MORE SUPERIOUR than D3D. That's a hard fact no matter DirectX 7.0 or not. Where testing 3D OGL vs. D3D OGL is sharper, faster and more "responsive". Just check the control lag in Q3 versus the control lage in any other D3D game with the same polygon count/FX enabled.

And for you who don't care about control lag, that's what gameplay is all about. (almost http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif)


Thanks + Best Regards(TM)
Fish


----------------------
"Welcome back from the guide to how I see things logically"

DigitalWelfare
15th October 1999, 07:32
Wow... I never thought that lame comment would have spawned all of these "TEACHINGS"

Maybe you should interpret the comment, coming from that of a customer service rep, that is obviously biased. people have diffrent prefrences, and this guy was willing to give his thoughts on it. I am sure SIERRA would not accept that reply as Theirs... @ any rate: Ice Storm is right- I know very very few gamers who use the G400... it just seems to be a developers card, or a CAD card (which will soon change because there considering OEM shipment) Not to say its not a great gaming card, because the numbers show it... but Alot of people have NO clue, what the G400 is... let alone some dude, answering e-mails... He may have alot of shit to do through out the day, and he may even be a nazi... The best thing to do as they said, is to direct the issue toward the developers.....I sincerly believe he is not accurate when he said (maybe within tribes2" why would starsiege have it and not Tribes2... I dont think any of the idea exchanges in here are stupid or ignorant, maybe biased, and cruel... but if you dont know ask... its sad to see people attacked like that.
Consider the response from Sierra, like the guy that filled your drink up half way, and gave it to you for the drive thru... you got what you requested(a response) It just wasnt the full deal.

The Rev
15th October 1999, 09:24
This thread was not to show any sort of attack (I might be taking this the wrong way). I wrote Sierra/Dynamix in hope I could show some support for G400 (and even non-nVidia/3dfx) users who play Tribes. I would hate to see Tribes2 come out and have it only work on a GeForce256. Tribes is my favorite game, and I know plenty other non-TNT/3dfx users who know their video cards have the capibility to have the same flash as the TNT/VooDoo series. It really seemed strange that I can play Q3Test fine at 1024x768 with high quality and have it run nice and smooth on my G400, yet Tribes in OGL will crawl along in a graphical glich at 640x480. Then to be told the G400 can't push enough polygons and such. I know my G400 has the potential to run just as well as a TNT2 in Tribes. So I'm trying to find out whats holding back the G400 and why. And maybe once I find that out, I can do something about it (if possible).

In response to the G400 not being a gaming card: From what I've seen, it seemed that after the G200 was not a huge success in the gaming market, Matrox made the G400 to resolve that. The marketing aspect seemed to show it can not only be a card in workstations, but one in a gaming rig too. I think Matrox did a very nice job with the G400, as every other game (besides Tribes) I throw at it, it has no problem running great.

I still haven't emailed the Tribes programmer but I will try to shortly. Hopefully he will comply and port it to the C64. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif

A Tribes Player

Snake-Eyes
15th October 1999, 10:42
The Rev- I hope you don't mind, but I already sent off a message to the developer, and I included a copy of the messages you sent/received from tech support on the issue. Additionally, I asked whether there was a chance for further patches addressing the poor OpenGL support for non-nVidia cards in Tribes 1. I also asked whether this issue would be addressed in Tribes 2, and let him know that there are quite a few people that love Tribes that no longer have a V2 or TNT in their systems, and who are greatly looking forward to playing Tribes 2, accelerated on their non-3DFX/non-nVidia cards.

One other thing I did was to correct the biased comments in the reply you received-
1. G400 is not a slower card than TNT2U(maybe not much faster, but NOT slower), at least on the right hardware.
2. G400/G200 (now) both do have full ICDs (even if they're not fully optimized yet).
3. The G400 is more popular than they think, and would be owned by many more if distribution were better from Matrox to outside vendors.

If anyone wants to see a copy of the message, just send me a note, and I'll forward a copy. Otherwise, just hang around for an update once I get a reply from Nels (if I get a reply, that is).

------------------
Ace


[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 15 October 1999).]

DigitalWelfare
15th October 1999, 11:17
REV- I didnt mean you were "attacking" or were responsible for the attacking... I mean the guy that sent you the reply was obviously biased, and when people make their comments, It seems that theres always someone that wants to A>prove them wrong B>discredit them.. I think its silly. The guy had no clue about what he was talking about. Im sure.


I never directly said, that it was NOT a GAMERS card... I DID SAY- THE NUMBERS SHOW IT IS... Its a high end card, that seems like it would be used by developers rather tha your average gamer (which will soon change) The technology in the G400 is amazing, and the fact is the developers of tribes most likely never incorporated that much power out of a chip (as far as developing goes) I mean it was optomized for GLIDE... assuming everything they tested it with was a late Voodoo2 SLI at best... you guys "supposedly" are beyond V2 SLI... its like the DOOMGL that came out... why would someone really want to play that?

The fact is...TRIBES is gonna remain sHIt although tribes 2 should incorporate OpenGL.


I hope you guys get your issues solved, and the diamond servers... are most likely GLIDE users, I have yet encountered anyone in TRIBES on a nvidia card.

Pound the developer with what you guys expect... It will only be their economic loss.....

peace:


http://207.199.1.116/images/photo/big/10_12_99.jpg


BEt you anything that thats not glide... maybe this is the notorious "Optimization for TNT OGL" hehehe

------------------
a digital display of evolution
(G200 with aid of Diamond Monster 3D II-SLI)

Snake-Eyes
15th October 1999, 12:54
Okay guys. Here's Nels Bruckner's reply to my message-


While I feel that the response you received was perhaps a
little harsh and (by thier own admision) from an uninformed sorce, they were
right about a few things. Mainly, the current OpenGL driver from Matrox
isn't very good yet in many ways. The Matrox OpenGL support is targeted at
games like Quake (and all the many clones) which stress the driver in very
different ways than Tribes. Matrox has assured us that they are working on
this and they do seem to get a little better with each new version. One
thing that was not accurate in the reply that you got was the implication
that the Tribes team simply didn't make Tribes run well on the Matrox cards
because the user base is so small. There is no truth to that at all. We
looked very closely at the Matrox cards during our development but our hands
were very much tied by the state of the OpenGL drivers. Also, the part
about "[there is] a very good change G400 special support will be included
in Tribes 2" is purely speculation on their part. No 'special support' is
planned for any cards at this point. I expect T2 to run well on any card
that has a solid OpenGL driver. The G400 certainly has the hardware to do
it and hopefully Matrox's drivers will support that hardware better by Q1 of
2000. I expect that they will.

--Nels


Sounds promising, huh?.

------------------
Ace


[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 15 October 1999).]

LAMFDTK
15th October 1999, 13:30
1st " I have yet encountered anyone in TRIBES on a nvidia card."

Yea I used one for a year and my brother and his pals all are running TNT TNT2 cards with tribes. And to let you in on a secret IT WORK DAMM WELL ! hehh

2nd Great follow-up Rev, for G400/Tribes fans lets hope that things work out!

[PCXL] Mabelrode
15th October 1999, 14:53
Ace -

Thanks for keeping us up-2-date on this. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/smile.gif

The Rev
16th October 1999, 02:50
Thanks for the support all http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/smile.gif

Ace: I didn't mind you writing Nel at all. Actually i'm really glad you did! Your email seems to have addressed most of my concerns. Could you post the email you sent him? If not, its ok.

It seems talking directly to the programmer was a good idea as it brought some good information. Time to take apart Nel's reply piece-by-piece, as all fear. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/wink.gif

"The Matrox OpenGL support is targeted at
games like Quake (and all the many clones) which stress the driver in very
different ways than Tribes. Matrox has assured us that they are working on
this and they do seem to get a little better with each new version. "

So Nel has been working with Matrox to some point. Excellent. I would like to hear what Matrox's programmers have to say about all this. Are Matrox's OpenGL coders focusing on Tribes as well as Quake and many other popular games? Is there a problem in the way Tribes implements OpenGL that is making it tough on Matrox's OpenGL Programmers? Can this be resolved between Matrox and Dyanmix?

"We looked very closely at the Matrox cards during our development but our hands were very much tied by the state of the OpenGL drivers."

Has the Matrox ICD improved enough so now Tribes can be tweaked accordingly? What needs to be done?

"No 'special support' is planned for any cards at this point. I expect T2 to run well on any card that has a solid OpenGL driver."


Yay! Thats some good news. I will try to e-mail Nel with the above questions later today. Any other questions anyone wants me to add?

A Tribes Player

P.S. It may seem like im going a long way for one game, but I feel it's a better way of resolving things then just whine. I hope others take action instead of whining when their games don't work properly. Get constructive. http://forums.murc.ws/ubb/smile.gif